| Zaetar |
Many texts say that an outsider will unconditionally obey and even go to the extent of causing the death of the one that knows their name to not let others know it. Also mispronouncing it would make the outsider suffer.
Does knowing them have any utility other than taking an outsider as hostage to do you bidding? Why is a True name so important? I pretty sure I'm missing an important part of the lore here since this comes from a nice while ago.
| Milo v3 |
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D&D and Pathfinder are both rather... inconsistent on the benefits gained from a truename and how difficult it is to obtain knowledge of a truename.
For example, ultimate magic gives rules for truenames here. Saying how they can be discovered through research and successful skill checks. These rules allow you to say it as part of trying to summon the individual to make it harder for them to resist the summoning or escape a magic circle.
But, ultimate magic also gives different rules for truenames here. Saying how it is discovered by wizards in place of a feat, where you can say it's name once a day to call it to you and force it to do your bidding without chance of fail or requiring payment, and you can mispronounce it to harm the creature.
| Haladir |
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The concept of truenames goes back a while in real-world traditions of hermetic magic. And by "a while," I mean "millennia." This includes the legends of "knowing a demon's true name gives one some amount of power over it" and also "speaking a demon's name aloud can draw its attention and/or summon it."
However, IIRC, the concept was brought into the D&D family of games in the '80s with a spell called truename from the original Unearthed Arcana written by Gary Gygax. I believe Gygax was primarily influenced by the concept of truenames in Ursula LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea trilogy, where the whole system of magic is predicated upon the manipulation of truenames.
Honestly, it felt like a bolted-on concept and the spell didn't make it to AD&D 2nd. Ed.
| Edymnion |
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Is D&D the first precedent for True Names? Does the concept of True Names predate D&D?
Oh yes, by quite a bit. And by "quite a bit" I mean its one of the oldest beliefs mankind has.
The idea is that to name something is to have power over it. Its actually in the Bible as well, because God refuses to tell humans what his name is because of the belief that if you knew his name, you could command him to do things. Its common in Kabbalah mysticism that if you know the actual name of a demon or angel, you can command them to do services for you.
There are even cultures in the world where an individual has two names, a private name and a public name, where only the closest of family know their private name, again out of the superstition that knowing someone's true name would give you power over them.
| Tacticslion |
Its actually in the Bible as well, because God refuses to tell humans what his name is because of the belief that if you knew his name, you could command him to do things.
Nuanced Correction. The name of God is revealed in the Bible; certain sects (although few, if any, still-living or practiced sects, as far as I'm aware) believed it was not His "True Name" for the reasons described by Edymnion.
Many of the ancient Jews held God's name in such reverence that they would set aside a pen, once it had written it; others refused to speak it aloud.
In the King James (and several English translations*) instead use a stylized "THE LORD" - or something similar - to represent said name, out of respect and reverence.
We translate the name to English as "Jehova" in a manner similar to how we translate the modern name "Jesus" instead of its original pronunciation (from whence we get "Joshua" in our culture, today).
* I'm no longer sure about the Vulgate; I really should brush up on my history of the Bible translations again.
| lemeres |
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lemeres wrote:It is your souls username and password. Letting other people know it can let them do all sorts of things with your account.Well, not with non-outsiders. Based on Contract Devil's, a living mortal's true name is implied to simply be their real name.
And some people have their birthday as their password.
I am not saying mortals are smart with their security measures.
| UnArcaneElection |
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Let me rephrase the thread title question: What are your Social Security Number, Driver's License Number, Passport Number, bank account numbers, credit card numbers, password key chin, birthdate, birthplace, parents' pre-nuptial names, and other such personal information for . . . From the point of view of someone who wants to bind you?
My take on True Names would be that it doesn't give you some kind of mind control over the creature whose True Name you have as it enables you to extort them . . . But you have to be careful how you do this, because if they see that they can solve the problem by simply killing you, they will do that . . . Or worse.