Which are the 16 PP scenarios?

[Wei Ji the Learner]

There was an earlier one that hasn't been mentioned yet but it did unwholesome things to our party, and it wasn't helped by some bad play on player part...

Spoiler:

The Hall of Drunken Heroes. We had no good answers for any of the last encounter, and it didn't help we got separated because of poor player choices and botched Will saves...

[MadScientistWorking]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

There was an earlier one that hasn't been mentioned yet but it did unwholesome things to our party, and it wasn't helped by some bad play on player part...

** spoiler omitted **

OOooo I was a Psychic in that one. I was just waving my hands wildly as I realized that I was entirely useless.

EDIT:
Here's an interesting question. How many scenarios make character death permanent if you even have the prestige points? I can think of one scenario but I wonder if its an aberration in that regard.

[Jessex]

I was at a table that almost lost a PC to mummy rot. That's more than 16 PP to fix. I'm sure there are other ways for it to happen.

[Greg Mount]

Thornkeep 2 spoiler:

In Thornkeep, part 2, I ran with my first PFS character, and un-optimized 3rd level elven magus, and was the group's default tank. I went unconscious in every room except the last, due to being hit consistently and always going late in initiative. When the last room came around, I went first, crossed the room, and critted the acid-wielding BBEG with a sword-delivered shocking grasp. My character just looked down at the corpse and said, "I am SOOOO done with this place. I'm outtie." Table cracked up.

[UndeadMitch]

The table of Ironbound Schism I GM'd (subtier 10-11) had the potential to be very brutal on the PC's, but a very well placed Dominate by the Chelish Diva in the party, and a very bad will save by the [REDACTED] completely turned the scenario on its head, with awesome results. I ended up reporting a character as dead at the end of the scenario, but only because the Chelish Diva, who was retiring at twelve at the end of the scenario anyways, decided not to get the lycanthropy resolved that she picked up at the end of the scenario. If that Dominate wouldn't have stuck there would have likely been multiple deaths.

[Ascalaphus]

Ironbound Schism was a school of hard knocks, but I didn't get the idea it was unfairly dangerous or anything. I played up with my L8 inquisitor and managed to roc-fly through it quite handily.

My Enemy's Enemy, now that was total crap. That final encounter should get a +1 CR for the bad guys having excellent gear for it, and +1 CR for super-advantageous positioning. We were coming into the room and just dying. The whole adventure was presented as "bring your skillmonkey for investigation" but in reality the investigation is easy, you need your most hard-to-kill dude.

[Finlanderboy]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

My Enemy's Enemy, now that was total crap. That final encounter should get a +1 CR for the bad guys having excellent gear for it, and +1 CR for super-advantageous positioning. We were coming into the room and just dying. The whole adventure was presented as "bring your skillmonkey for investigation" but in reality the investigation is easy, you need your most hard-to-kill dude.

Well depending on your team depends his difficulty. The only time I saw trouble was when with 4 people.

[Ascalaphus]

Finlanderboy wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

My Enemy's Enemy, now that was total crap. That final encounter should get a +1 CR for the bad guys having excellent gear for it, and +1 CR for super-advantageous positioning. We were coming into the room and just dying. The whole adventure was presented as "bring your skillmonkey for investigation" but in reality the investigation is easy, you need your most hard-to-kill dude.

Well depending on your team depends his difficulty. The only time I saw trouble was when with 4 people.

It was four people yeah. The four-player adjustment is nonsense.

[Christopher Wasko]

Deadliest scenario I ever ran was

Spoiler:

Tapestry's Toil. The first encounters and the navigation of the mountain just deplete resources, and the final boss 's build and tactics are insane.

[MadScientistWorking]

Jessex wrote:

I was at a table that almost lost a PC to mummy rot. That's more than 16 PP to fix. I'm sure there are other ways for it to happen.

Mummy Rot just requires more prestige points to fix. The scenario Im talking about required Miracle or Wish.

[Cpt_kirstov]

MadScientistWorking wrote:

Jessex wrote:

I was at a table that almost lost a PC to mummy rot. That's more than 16 PP to fix. I'm sure there are other ways for it to happen.

Mummy Rot just requires more prestige points to fix. The scenario Im talking about required Miracle or Wish.

I can think of at least two that fit that description.... I haven't read enough to high level to remember others and one that forces you to use pp if you make a bad choice but don't die.... Is that a 5 pp scenario

[Cpt_kirstov]

Christopher Wasko wrote:

Deadliest scenario I ever ran was ** spoiler omitted **

was that the connecticon table?

[The Morphling]

Jayne Munny wrote:

Hmm wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

The first scenario that always comes to mind for me is #5-05: The Elven Entanglement (already mentioned), but only because of one encounter. I've GMed it multiple times, and played it once, and every time someone died, regardless of prep. High HP, High AC, High Saves, didn't matter.

Okay, so what is the point of scenarios like this? If even well-prepared characters can die and do nothing about it? Where's the fun? Why make a challenge so brutal?

Hmm

It was a brutal encounter, but there were interesting things going on. That being said, Munny almost bought it on his first action, but thanks to Moira and a Caydenite Cleric, he survived to end the encounter.

** spoiler omitted **

Tough, but winnable. Many people enjoy this sort of encounter... but some do not. I am probably somewhere in the middle!

So, I'm super confused. I've played that scenario before and I own it (planning to GM it sometime) and I don't see anything the final boss has which requires a reflex save, let alone a really high reflex save.

What ability are you guys referring to?

Oh, you're not talking about the final encounter. I remember vividly what you're referring to.

[Andrew Christian]

The Morphling wrote:

Jayne Munny wrote:

Hmm wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

The first scenario that always comes to mind for me is #5-05: The Elven Entanglement (already mentioned), but only because of one encounter. I've GMed it multiple times, and played it once, and every time someone died, regardless of prep. High HP, High AC, High Saves, didn't matter.

Okay, so what is the point of scenarios like this? If even well-prepared characters can die and do nothing about it? Where's the fun? Why make a challenge so brutal?

Hmm

It was a brutal encounter, but there were interesting things going on. That being said, Munny almost bought it on his first action, but thanks to Moira and a Caydenite Cleric, he survived to end the encounter.

** spoiler omitted **

Tough, but winnable. Many people enjoy this sort of encounter... but some do not. I am probably somewhere in the middle!

So, I'm super confused. I've played that scenario before and I own it (planning to GM it sometime) and I don't see anything the final boss has which requires a reflex save, let alone a really high reflex save.

What ability are you guys referring to?

Its actually the first encounter of the scenario:

Elven Entanglement First Encounter:

The encounter starts with a trample. Trample allows for a reflex save for half damage.

[TriOmegaZero]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

My Enemy's Enemy, now that was total crap. That final encounter should get a +1 CR for the bad guys having excellent gear for it, and +1 CR for super-advantageous positioning. We were coming into the room and just dying. The whole adventure was presented as "bring your skillmonkey for investigation" but in reality the investigation is easy, you need your most hard-to-kill dude.

I've never seen it be that bad.

Spoiler:

The bad guys can't make the DC to hear the combat except for one of them in the high tier. So they should be surprised in most runs.

[Jeff Morse]

MadScientistWorking wrote:

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

There was an earlier one that hasn't been mentioned yet but it did unwholesome things to our party, and it wasn't helped by some bad play on player part...

** spoiler omitted **

OOooo I was a Psychic in that one. I was just waving my hands wildly as I realized that I was entirely useless.

EDIT:
Here's an interesting question. How many scenarios make character death permanent if you even have the prestige points? I can think of one scenario but I wonder if its an aberration in that regard.

Know how you felt= took a teleporting, summoning wizard into a dimensional locked demiplane once. I waited real life years to play it , only to be near useless.

[Ascalaphus]

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

My Enemy's Enemy, now that was total crap. That final encounter should get a +1 CR for the bad guys having excellent gear for it, and +1 CR for super-advantageous positioning. We were coming into the room and just dying. The whole adventure was presented as "bring your skillmonkey for investigation" but in reality the investigation is easy, you need your most hard-to-kill dude.

I've never seen it be that bad.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

They get warned by the thunderstorm going off; I read the scenario to say that if the trap goes off, they automatically hear that. It's an indoor thunderstorm after all.

scenario wrote:

If either of them hears the trap go off in area D5, the pair is likely prepared for the PCs' approach.

Apart from that, we had to squeeze to get in the room, slowing us down and leaving us in a nice fireball formation. The 4-player adjustment is that the NPCs are sickened, which doesn't meaningfully reduce the accuracy of a fast-bombs alchemist or the damage of the wand of fireballs rogue.

It was a lot worse for us than it maybe should've been because we were barely playing up. There was a snafu with party mustering where one PC had to be switched out because he already had the chronicle on it as GM credit, so we traded a L7 shaman that could've spammed energy resistance for a L6 something else. After the PC switch we could have (should have) gone to the lower tier but failed to notice the calculation had changed.

[The Morphling]

I brought an 11th-level mesmerist to a multi-table-special where every single enemy in the first half is immune to mind-affecting effects for absolutely no reason.

That was nice and horrible - he specializes in greater command, so all he could do was target one guy and hope he got lucky with the 50% chance each round. Luckily the mesmerist has glitterdust and is a competent swordsman (swashbuckler dip), or I'd have contributed almost nothing for the first three hours.

I did get to carry the group through the last half though. With nearly zero spells expended and a vengeful mindset, I got to be nasty to every single fight thereafter, so it was a fun scenario for me in the end.

[Andrew Christian]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

My Enemy's Enemy, now that was total crap. That final encounter should get a +1 CR for the bad guys having excellent gear for it, and +1 CR for super-advantageous positioning. We were coming into the room and just dying. The whole adventure was presented as "bring your skillmonkey for investigation" but in reality the investigation is easy, you need your most hard-to-kill dude.

I've never seen it be that bad.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

My Enemy's Enemy:

Except there is actually a DC listed for them to hear anything, which only one guy in the High Tier can make, if he rolls really, really well.

EDIT:

My Enemy's Enemy, Page 16, Development:

If the Shadow Lodge instigators have
the opportunity to activate the room’s traps, the sound of
thunder, crackle of electricity, and howling of wind echo
through the chamber. This can be heard elsewhere in the
crypt with a DC 30 Perception check. Lal Chadwa needs an 18 to hear this, because he has a +12 Perception at 6-7.

[TOZ]

As usual, playing up is the culprit. :)

[Andrew Christian]

The Morphling wrote:

I brought an 11th-level mesmerist to a multi-table-special where every single enemy in the first half is immune to mind-affecting effects for absolutely no reason.

I'm pretty familiar with all the multi-table specials. And I don't recall one where this is true. Could you elaborate?

[Ascalaphus]

Andrew Christian wrote:

The Morphling wrote:

I brought an 11th-level mesmerist to a multi-table-special where every single enemy in the first half is immune to mind-affecting effects for absolutely no reason.

I'm pretty familiar with all the multi-table specials. And I don't recall one where this is true. Could you elaborate?

I've played all of them, but it doesn't ring any bells for me either.

[Christopher Wasko]

Earl Gendron wrote:

Christopher Wasko wrote:

Deadliest scenario I ever ran was ** spoiler omitted **

was that the connecticon table?

Yup. Never had a PC death before, then racked up 4 in that session

[B.O.B.Johnson]

I found

Spoiler:

You Only Die Twice

was particularly deadly. Maybe we didn't have the best party for it, but it was a beast.

While not particularly deadly,

Spoiler:

Library of the Lion can be deadly if you have an idiot party member color spray the Lion head statue 2 minutes into the Library.

[Belafon]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

The Morphling wrote:

I brought an 11th-level mesmerist to a multi-table-special where every single enemy in the first half is immune to mind-affecting effects for absolutely no reason.

I'm pretty familiar with all the multi-table specials. And I don't recall one where this is true. Could you elaborate?

I've played all of them, but it doesn't ring any bells for me either.

Depending on the particular encounters you happen to face it's quite possible to hit that situation in

Spoiler:

Siege of Serpents, though I wouldn't say "for no reason;" it's just what the creature types work out to be.

An identical thing happened to me in that special until the end. I had prepped it so I knew I was going to be ineffective. Of course no one was making the knowledge checks so I just kept on casting away and being shocked when it didn't work :)

[The Morphling]

Kevin Willis wrote:

Depending on the particular encounters you happen to face it's quite possible to hit that situation in
** spoiler omitted **
An identical thing happened to me in that special until the end. I had prepped it so I knew I was going to be ineffective. Of course no one was making the knowledge checks so I just kept on casting away and being shocked when it didn't work :)

It was that one. They're arbitrarily immune to it, with no logical reason behind it. I know it's not just specific to that scenario, but they're the only creature we fought for hours. I think it makes no sense for the race in question to have that immunity. They're not mindless, they're not constructs, they're not magically shielded... they are just immune for no discernible reason.

[Andrew Christian]

The Morphling wrote:

Kevin Willis wrote:

Depending on the particular encounters you happen to face it's quite possible to hit that situation in
** spoiler omitted **
An identical thing happened to me in that special until the end. I had prepped it so I knew I was going to be ineffective. Of course no one was making the knowledge checks so I just kept on casting away and being shocked when it didn't work :)

It was that one. They're arbitrarily immune to it, with no logical reason behind it. I know it's not just specific to that scenario, but they're the only creature we fought for hours. I think it makes no sense for the race in question to have that immunity.

You made it sound like it was a function of the scenario that made an arbitrary decision. Using specific monsters that have the immunity isn't for no reason.

Ok, so just looked back through the special and there isn't a single creature that has immunity to mind effecting for no reason.

That special:

Other than the expected immunity from Constructs and Undead, the only creature that might have been a surprise was a Dorvae. But the fluff about the creature makes for a very good reason why it is immune to mind effecting. And this creature was only in a single encounter from Part 3. So please explain what creatures were immune to mind effecting "for no reason" from the first half of the special?

[DesolateHarmony]

David Hansen wrote:

I found ** spoiler omitted ** was particularly deadly. Maybe we didn't have the best party for it, but it was a beast.

While not particularly deadly, ** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Remember that the spell Heal can only reduce an undead creature's hit points down to one.

[The Morphling]

Andrew Christian wrote:

So please explain what creatures were immune to mind effecting "for no reason" from the first half of the special?

Serpentfolk. Why are they immune to mind-affecting?

[Warwick Cailean]

Years of building up a resistance to all those Vudrani snake charmers.

[Andrew Christian]

The Morphling wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

So please explain what creatures were immune to mind effecting "for no reason" from the first half of the special?

Serpentfolk. Why are they immune to mind-affecting?

So not the scenario we were discussing. Actually was a different one.

[Andrew Christian]

For the record, I believe that the Serpentfolk are the Pathfinder analogue to the DnD 3.5 Yuan-Ti. No, I don't have a citation for this.

Yuan-Ti were psionic creatures.

PRD: Serpentfolk wrote:

To the serpentfolk, the pursuit of knowledge and magic is the highest goal. Their legends speak of how humanity rose to power only through the theft of serpent magic, a legend that may form the basis of the hatred toward humanity most serpentfolk harbor. They view themselves as the undisputed masters of magic, be it arcane or divine.

So with that in mind, it makes some sense that Serpentfolk would be immune to mind-effecting effects. It isn't just completely arbitrary.

[Ascalaphus]

That Special Where The Mind Immune Things Are:

I didn't even realize that when I was playing that special. We just kept tearing through them with our swords/claws/impounded giant anacondas.

It's probably for about the same reason the serpent bloodline opens up options for sorcerers to try mind-affecting things on unusual targets; snakes are associated with mind control.

If it makes you feel any better, they also have spell resistance. They're arcane enemies, best fought with iron age tactics..

[UndeadMitch]

Andrew Christian wrote:

The Morphling wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

So please explain what creatures were immune to mind effecting "for no reason" from the first half of the special?

Serpentfolk. Why are they immune to mind-affecting?

So not the scenario we were discussing. Actually was a different one.

C'mon guys, spoiler tags are a thing!:

Pretty sure that Morphling was originally referring to Sky Key Solution and not Siege of Serpents, which is very much front-loaded with serpentfolk. It's pretty easy to confuse the two, especially when you consider that Siege of Serpents deals with the Sky Key, and the Sky Key Solution is packed full of Serpentfolk.

[Andrew Christian]

UndeadMitch wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

The Morphling wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

So please explain what creatures were immune to mind effecting "for no reason" from the first half of the special?

Serpentfolk. Why are they immune to mind-affecting?

So not the scenario we were discussing. Actually was a different one.

Pretty sure that Morphling was originally referring to Sky Key Solution and not Siege of Serpents, which is very much front-loaded with serpentfolk.

Yes, but I was lead to believe hew as talking about Siege of Serpents and he confirmed it. But now that I know which one he was referring to, and which creature he was referring to, I can now address that.

Just so we are clear, regardless what you feel about the arbitrariness of the immunity that creature has, the use of the creature itself was pretty integral to the storyline of the scenario, so the choice to use it was not arbitrary.

[andreww]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

If it makes you feel any better, they also have spell resistance. They're arcane enemies, best fought with iron age tactics..

We combined Aqueous Orb with a thundercaller bard. Its hard to hold your breath when you are stunned.

[UndeadMitch]

Andrew Christian wrote:

UndeadMitch wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

The Morphling wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

So please explain what creatures were immune to mind effecting "for no reason" from the first half of the special?

Serpentfolk. Why are they immune to mind-affecting?

So not the scenario we were discussing. Actually was a different one.

Pretty sure that Morphling was originally referring to Sky Key Solution and not Siege of Serpents, which is very much front-loaded with serpentfolk.

Yes, but I was lead to believe hew as talking about Siege of Serpents and he confirmed it. But now that I know which one he was referring to, and which creature he was referring to, I can now address that.

Just so we are clear, regardless what you feel about the arbitrariness of the immunity that creature has, the use of the creature itself was pretty integral to the storyline of the scenario, so the choice to use it was not arbitrary.

I was editing when you replied, but I can see it being super easy to confuse those two specials.

[Ascalaphus]

That said, I didn't find the scenario to be anything near to a "16PP" scenario. I was actually contemplating selling my armor because I'd given up on AC, but the enemies had trouble hitting me.

Spoiler:

I thought AC 24 at level was 11 was "give up already"?

[UndeadMitch]

I guess it depends on the subtier. Those really big things with the really short arms gave the table I GM'd for trouble when I ran it.

[Andrew Christian]

UndeadMitch wrote:

I guess it depends on the subtier. Those really big things with the really short arms gave the table I GM'd for trouble when I ran it.

Hehe, especially in that one encounter... FUN!

[UndeadMitch]

Good times, good times...

[Imbicatus]

I'm just curious why an 11th level mesmerist wouldn't have psychic inception to deal with the immunity, unless they were something silly like a vexing daredevil.

[Jakuri]

Glories of the Past I and II have very deadly moments.

waltero wrote:

Someone always dies in King of the Storval Stairs.

Others which can be deadly - Waking Rune, Dalsine Affair, Darkest Vengeance.

Have played in three of these. Some thoughts:

Storval Stairs:

Definitely the most dangerous on the list. 2 prestige raises and 2 breath of lifes from separate sets of first aid gloves. Last encounter we only avoided a tpk because the BBEG rolled a nat 1 on his save vs a summoned ankylosaurus stun.

Waking Rune:

First encounter our warpriest ended up getting plane shifted. He now worships....someone else. Horrid wilting and some nasty save or sucks (some save and still sucks) were dealt with by a very prepared group of pathfinders.

Darkest Vengeance:

The machine was ridiculous and it seemed like an impossibility of dealing with it appropriately given the subtier. Final encounter expects PC's to deal with deeper darkness in a 1-5 at both subtiers.

[MadScientistWorking]

Imbicatus wrote:

I'm just curious why an 11th level mesmerist wouldn't have psychic inception to deal with the immunity, unless they were something silly like a vexing daredevil.

That work around isn't exactly the most reliable of things. Its probably better to go invisible and start spamming Mirror Image on your allies.

[BartonOliver]

MadScientistWorking wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

I'm just curious why an 11th level mesmerist wouldn't have psychic inception to deal with the immunity, unless they were something silly like a vexing daredevil.

That work around isn't exactly the most reliable of things. Its probably better to go invisible and start spamming Mirror Image on your allies.

Since Mirror Image is a personal spell, I don't think this works.

[MadScientistWorking]

Joe Ducey wrote:

MadScientistWorking wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

I'm just curious why an 11th level mesmerist wouldn't have psychic inception to deal with the immunity, unless they were something silly like a vexing daredevil.

That work around isn't exactly the most reliable of things. Its probably better to go invisible and start spamming Mirror Image on your allies.

Since Mirror Image is a personal spell, I don't think this works.

}

Not for the Mesmerist which gets a lesser version of the spell as one of its tricks. At that level its three images.

[David_Bross]

Here is my list

Full details of potential killer scenarios:

This list comes from those that either forced the party (surviving members) to retreat from the scenario, or TPKs ensued.

• Sniper In the Deep- High Tier Spectres w/ underwater combat rules, brutal with a surprise round (that they're virtually guareneteed to get underwater) Didn't help that the scenario had been a cakewalk, despite playing up, thanks to an eidolon who'd been soloing everything until that point that acquired too many negative levels in a 1st round of combat.
  
• The Haunting of Hinojai- This scenario has several several excellent combats, but in particular one has an invisible flying foe, also using illusion.
  
• Waking Rune- This scenario has two particularly brutal solo combatants in it, that both have high intelligence and effective tactics.
  
• In Wrath's Shadow- The BBEG has particularly ineffective tactics so long as his minions are alive, but turns brutal when they die and things go off rails.
  
• The Cultists Kiss- Negative Levels again can negate the protections of even well prepared PCs, particularly you split the party.
  
• TK-Enigma Vaults- Stupidly strong BBEG for the tier. Fortunately more interested in slaves than dead pathfinders.
  
• FS1- The final combat is SO swingy.. One natural 20 can truedead a PC. Already mentioned in this thread.
  
• The bloodcove disguise- Summoners broken
  
• Trial By Machine- Hardness is stupid broken, particularly if the wrong people have the items meant to mitigate it.
  
• Fortress of the Nail- High tier BBEG OP.
  
• King of the Storval Stairs- High difficulty scenario.
  
• The Sarkorian Prophecy- Honorable Mention; One bad guy has tactics virtually guaranteed to kill one PC in high tier

[UndeadMitch]

Can't believe I forgot In Wrath's Shadow...

*shudders*

[BartonOliver]

MadScientistWorking wrote:

Joe Ducey wrote:

MadScientistWorking wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

I'm just curious why an 11th level mesmerist wouldn't have psychic inception to deal with the immunity, unless they were something silly like a vexing daredevil.

That work around isn't exactly the most reliable of things. Its probably better to go invisible and start spamming Mirror Image on your allies.

Since Mirror Image is a personal spell, I don't think this works.

}

Not for the Mesmerist which gets a lesser version of the spell as one of its tricks. At that level its three images.

Oh ok. I haven't spent a lot of time on all the Mesmerist tricks yet.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Can't believe I forgot Trial By Machine (low-tier)

*shudders*

That one *almost* made me rage-quit PFS play before I even really got started.

Not helped by player attempting to trigger everything in sight after the rest of the table asked, then told, then insisted the party in question stop doing so.

Almost TPK'd our L1 crew at a certain point...