Archives of Nethys
|
Biggest reason to go unchained is to avoid Barbarian Sudden Death Syndrome, since (as Zach mentioned) you get temp HP that is lost first instead of a increase, an later decrease, in CON.
I can tell you that Unchained Intimidating glare is straight up better than normal, as it allows you to use STR instead of CHA, and if you intimidate someone adjacent to you, they are shaken for the rest of your rage.
I haven't been impressed so far, but still holding out hope.
You have Raging Vitality so your barbarian suddenly dying isn't a problem (you don't automatically end rage while unconscious which is what killed most barbarians).
Honestly, if you knew what you were doing with the original barbarian and didn't have problems understanding what was going on you probably shouldn't change to Unchained. Unchained is a slight power downgrade compared to the original barbarian, but it is more simplified. The only good part of the Unchained Barbarian is the temporary hp thing. The rage powers are generally not as good and the bonus to attack and damage (instead of to strength) is not as good for a two-handed fighting style character. It's only slightly worse, but the Unchained Barbarian is worse.
|
|
Ok so the question is actually separated into to parts for me. I hate the Barbarian Rage HPs from chained, so that changing is almost reason enough to change over. However, the Unchianed Rage is much easier to calculate but not as powerful. (Adding to the stats is better, increases Fort saves, multiplies by 1.5 when two-handing, adds to skills.) So far I haven't figured out which I would take, but generally lean towards the original. With you already having raging vitality and solving most of the Sudden Barbarian Death Styndrome, I'd probably stay chained.
|
The biggest possible advantage to the unchained barbarian I've seen is that the bonuses are all untyped. The chained barbarian provides morale bonuses. So if you're in a situation where you know you're going to be getting weird morale bonuses to a bunch of things, you might significantly benefit from going unchained.
I haven't seen anything about how the Rage spell stacks with UC rage, but it's plausible that it would, since the bonuses stack now. The change in bonus types also makes it a plausible interpretation that undead or construct barbarians who aren't affected by emotion or mind-affecting effects can benefit from rage.
Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully there are more opinions out there.
@Claxon. I havne't had a problem with dying yet, but wouldn't it be more fun not having to take Raging Vitality and getting something else? Also, I have to think that getting to burn through a fresh set of temp HPs every Rage cycle has got to be helpful?
@Partizanski. The problem with IG is that you have to use a Move action when you're within melee. I don't know that giving up an attack is worth an attempt at debuffing.
True, Raging Vitality is a feat tax. But you'd also have to pay to train it away (I've assumed this is for PFS). Barbarians really don't require many feats to be good, and I've always felt the extra con you gain while raging made it worth it on top of the not instantly dying. It's only a single feat though. You should honestly probably be spending a lot of feats on Extra Rage Power, because rage powers are awesome, but you honestly don't need many feats to be good. Power Attack and Raging Vitality and you're pretty good to go. Everything else is gravy.
The biggest downfall of the Uncahined Barbarian in losing access to beast totem and spell sunder rage powers (IIRC those options are not available to Unchained Barbarians).
As for burning through temp hp instead of your normal hp...it is semi-helpful. But considering it like this, it's only saving you (or your party) charges from a wand of cure light wounds. It's good, but it's literally the only good thing about the Unchained Barbarian.
If you found the original barbarian to be difficult to understand or you didn't know how to build it, the Unchained Barbarian is a decent alternative, but it is strictly a downgrade in terms of power. Not a huge downgrade, but a downgrade.
The change in bonus types also makes it a plausible interpretation that undead or construct barbarians who aren't affected by emotion or mind-affecting effects can benefit from rage.
The simply changed the rules for how undead work to say that they benefited from rage and that instead of a con bonus undead got a bonus to cha.
|
Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully there are more opinions out there.
@Claxon. I havne't had a problem with dying yet, but wouldn't it be more fun not having to take Raging Vitality and getting something else? Also, I have to think that getting to burn through a fresh set of temp HPs every Rage cycle has got to be helpful?
@Partizanski. The problem with IG is that you have to use a Move action when you're within melee. I don't know that giving up an attack is worth an attempt at debuffing.
True, Raging Vitality is a feat tax. But you'd also have to pay to train it away (I've assumed this is for PFS). Barbarians really don't require many feats to be good, and I've always felt the extra con you gain while raging made it worth it on top of the not instantly dying. It's only a single feat though. You should honestly probably be spending a lot of feats on Extra Rage Power, because rage powers are awesome, but you honestly don't need many feats to be good. Power Attack and Raging Vitality and you're pretty good to go. Everything else is gravy.
The biggest downfall of the Uncahined Barbarian in losing access to beast totem and spell sunder rage powers (IIRC those options are not available to Unchained Barbarians).
As for burning through temp hp instead of your normal hp...it is semi-helpful. But considering it like this, it's only saving you (or your party) charges from a wand of cure light wounds. It's good, but it's literally the only good thing about the Unchained Barbarian.
If you found the original barbarian to be difficult to understand or you didn't know how to build it, the Unchained Barbarian is a decent alternative, but it is strictly a downgrade in terms of power. Not a huge downgrade, but a downgrade.
While you would normally have to retrain the feat, the character hasn't been played since Unchained was released, so it still eligible for a free rebuild including feats.
Also, while unchained is slightly weaker for a bog-standard two-handed weapon barbarian, it is stronger for a TWF dex-based barbarian or a hurler.
I agree the rage powers are worse overall, but I see the unchained barb as more of a side-grade than a downgrade.
If the Core Barbarian is a B+, the Uncahined Barbarian is a B- in my book.
And I agree that it is better for a TWF, or thrown weapon barbarian than a core barbarian. That is also not the type of character the OP has or is trying to build.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just to clear up, beast totem line is 100% approved for PFS play on UBarbs. It's specifically listed in that little list of unchanged rage powers that still work.
Chained barbarians. Proof that math is POOOOWEERR!
|
|
The change in bonus types also makes it a plausible interpretation that undead or construct barbarians who aren't affected by emotion or mind-affecting effects can benefit from rage.The simply changed the rules for how undead work to say that they benefited from rage and that instead of a con bonus undead got a bonus to cha.
Did they? I don't think I ever saw anything about that, and I can't find it in search. Sigh. :( Got a link?
Doesn't charisma not grant HP in pathfinder though?
|
|
You've got it reversed. In 3.5 it didn't, in PF it does.Doesn't charisma not grant HP in pathfinder though?
For undead, though, not usually the living.
From Undead monster type, Undead Traits, in the Bestiary:
No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).
|
|
Did they? I don't think I ever saw anything about that, and I can't find it in search. Sigh. :( Got a link?The change in bonus types also makes it a plausible interpretation that undead or construct barbarians who aren't affected by emotion or mind-affecting effects can benefit from rage.The simply changed the rules for how undead work to say that they benefited from rage and that instead of a con bonus undead got a bonus to cha.It's in the Monster Codex. They introduced the following ability:
Undead Barbarian
An undead creature with the ability to enter a rage gains the morale bonuses from rage despite being immune to morale effects. The bonus to Constitution from the rage applies to an undead creature's Charisma instead.
Aha. Thanks! I never knew that. We actually had an undead barbarian at one point who was far less effective than she probably should have been, although the time for undead rage has since passed.
|
Fair enough. You can't enhance several throwing weapons like you can a bow, and a blinkback belt takes up the slot of a belt of giant strength, but you've technically pointed out a flaw. My many other points stand.The advantage of untyped bonuses is not insignificant, particularly if you have a bard in the party. But the poorer scaling of rage to two-handed, the lack of application to bow and thrown damage, and most importantly, the outright INFERIOR rage powers means the higher level you get, the worse the differences become.Uh?
While in a rage, a barbarian gains a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, thrown weapon damage rolls, and Will saving throws.
Actually, Ricochet Toss returns the weapon to you immediately. So you can enhance a single weapon and use it for all your attacks and still get a belt for strength. If you want to specialize in thrown weapons, there are options.
|
|
Actually, Ricochet Toss returns the weapon to you immediately. So you can enhance a single weapon and use it for all your attacks and still get a belt for strength. If you want to specialize in thrown weapons, there are options.Fair enough. You can't enhance several throwing weapons like you can a bow, and a blinkback belt takes up the slot of a belt of giant strength, but you've technically pointed out a flaw. My many other points stand.The advantage of untyped bonuses is not insignificant, particularly if you have a bard in the party. But the poorer scaling of rage to two-handed, the lack of application to bow and thrown damage, and most importantly, the outright INFERIOR rage powers means the higher level you get, the worse the differences become.Uh?
While in a rage, a barbarian gains a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, thrown weapon damage rolls, and Will saving throws.
In fact, if you use a belt of mighty hurling, you get a STR belt and STR to Hit on thrown weapons. A thrown weapon UnBarb is fully competitive with a bow using Core Barb.
|
|
Fair enough, but thats two feats spent on a backup weapon for most barbarians. Its something to consider if you want to go a throwing weapon barbarian for whatever reasons. Still think the core would perform better at it, just because he doesn't have to spend a move action assuming a 'stance.' He can just start chucking, round 1.Actually, Ricochet Toss returns the weapon to you immediately. So you can enhance a single weapon and use it for all your attacks and still get a belt for strength. If you want to specialize in thrown weapons, there are options.Fair enough. You can't enhance several throwing weapons like you can a bow, and a blinkback belt takes up the slot of a belt of giant strength, but you've technically pointed out a flaw. My many other points stand.The advantage of untyped bonuses is not insignificant, particularly if you have a bard in the party. But the poorer scaling of rage to two-handed, the lack of application to bow and thrown damage, and most importantly, the outright INFERIOR rage powers means the higher level you get, the worse the differences become.Uh?
While in a rage, a barbarian gains a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, thrown weapon damage rolls, and Will saving throws.
Unbarb doesn't need any of stance powers. They are bonuses, but they can be ignored of you don't like the action economy hit of using them.
|
The Unchained Barbarian is also DRAMATICALLY worse at one of the defining features of the class: feats of herculean strength. A level 7 Barbarian, with just Shrapnel Strike, Strength Surge and no magic items enhancing him, can bend iron bars with a 4 on his strength check. He can burst free of chain bonds with a 6. With an 8, he can RIP A 2 INCH IRON DOOR OFF THE HINGES WITH HIS BARE HANDS. By level 10, he can do all this with anything but a 1 on his roll. All for one round of rage. The Unchained barbarian can't even approach this.
Uhm. I'm confused. Depending on what Strength score you're starting with, the Unchained barbarian can literally do all of that, at the same levels. The only difference is the length of fatigue afterward. Strength Stance + Shrapnel Strike + Str 20 gets you all the same numbers you just said. How is that not "even approaching this?"
EDIT: No, that's not quite true, I apologize. At 10th level the U!barb would need a 5 on the roll to break the iron door. I'm still not convinced that's an incredible, staggering difference.
|
|
I listed no magic item numbers, so I'm really not sure where you're getting 20 strength at level 7. Unchained Barbarian doesn't gain strength on his rage. Beyond the better scaling, Strength surge is an incredible versatile rage power. I don't just have to shatter things. I can basically auto-win any combat maneuver I like. Strength Stance on the other hand, is barely worth anything other than a strange 'combat maneuver' barbarian, or breaking things at a worse rate than the Core Barbarian.The Unchained Barbarian is also DRAMATICALLY worse at one of the defining features of the class: feats of herculean strength. A level 7 Barbarian, with just Shrapnel Strike, Strength Surge and no magic items enhancing him, can bend iron bars with a 4 on his strength check. He can burst free of chain bonds with a 6. With an 8, he can RIP A 2 INCH IRON DOOR OFF THE HINGES WITH HIS BARE HANDS. By level 10, he can do all this with anything but a 1 on his roll. All for one round of rage. The Unchained barbarian can't even approach this.Uhm. I'm confused. Depending on what Strength score you're starting with, the Unchained barbarian can literally do all of that, at the same levels. The only difference is the length of fatigue afterward. Strength Stance + Shrapnel Strike + Str 20 gets you all the same numbers you just said. How is that not "even approaching this?"
EDIT: No, that's not quite true, I apologize. At 10th level the U!barb would need a 5 on the roll to break the iron door. I'm still not convinced that's an incredible, staggering difference.
Any character can have a 20 STR at first level via an 18 starting and a +2 racial. If you wanted to save some points on point buy you could go 17 starting for a 19 and then put your 4th level point into STR. Both are easily done.
As for stegnth surge, yes it is more powerful than strength stance... for one roll per rage. If you are using it to auto-win any one combat manuever... so what? Any one trip, grapple, bull rush, or sunder isn't going to win the battle. It's not even going to do that much to inconvenience the foe. It will make them waste some action economy to deal with the condition, but it's not going to help you keep them down. The once per rage limitation really kills the utility of the power, because unless you use the clunky, non-intuitive, and immersion-breaking tactic of rage-cycling, it's just not going to be up all the times you need it.
If you're a two handed weapon wielding monster chained is probably better. Unchained pulls ahead with TWF, dex based, and thrown weapons.