| PrimarchXIII |
Me and my group are starting a Lv 7 Dungeon and I decided to have a break form the normal Damage dealer role and going for more of a support role.
It is 20 point buy so i will be using the following stat block for the Cleric:
Race: Aasimar/Human (Stat bonus not added below).
Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 16 (+1 from Lv4)
Cha: 14
I am not too sure about the Oracle as i was thinking of picking Oracle of Lore and pick the Sidestep Secret revelation (so i can dump Dex), though if anyone has a suggestion for a stat block, feel free to suggest and explain.
I am looking to mainly be buffing the party, with some utility spells and able to walk into melee with weapon and shield after the buffs are up and help out with a bit extra damage, flank etc.
the problem i am having is... Cleric or Oracle.
- The Cleric will get Lv 4 spells but the Oracle gets more lower level spells to cast per day.
- Oracle being spontaneous over the Cleric being prepared.
- Cleric can spontaneously cast healing spells, the Oracle cannot.
- Cleric has Channel energy, where as its unlikely i would play an Oracle of Life.
- Oracle would have better reflex and AC (Oracle of Lore).
- Oracle slightly less MAD and higher spell DCs (more points into Charisma).
Any other suggestions would be appreciated (or any other class/build suggestions). i leave myself in your extremely competent hands Forum!
| Corvino |
If you're going Oracle then consider either the Dual Cursed or Spirit Guide Archetypes. Dual Cursed gives some very potent reroll-based powers than make it effective in a support role. Spirit Guide overcomes a big part of the spontaneous caster weakness due to Spirit spells being changeable every day - you gain flexibility.
The biggest difference between Clerics and Oracles is that Clerics are consummate generalists while Oracles are specialists. Clerics get their whole spell list and 2 sets of domain spells. A Support Cleric can still choose to summon when selecting spells, while a Battle Cleric can opt to heal. Oracles are more limited to their specialty, but often better at that one role than a Cleric would be.
| David knott 242 |
Between Dual Cursed and Spirit Guide, I would favor Spirit Guide because it provides something that the standard Oracle doesn't have -- flexibility. Each day, from 4th level on, the oracle can pick a different spirit and gain his choice of hex and a set of bonus spells known. Dual Cursed costs more than it grants you prior to 5th level.
| Dave Justus |
Oracles specialize better at melee or specific aspects of support (like oracle of life healing.)
Clerics are a lot better at dealing with the weird stuff. Leave a slot or two open, and when that once in a campaign need for cure blindness shows up, you are ready for it. Oracles have to buy scrolls to get the same versatility.
Evangelist cleric is quite possible the most powerful support build out that, and reach cleric build works great with them.
Kahel Stormbender
|
To me it's a case of do you like apples, or do you prefer oranges. As others have said, clerics are by default a generalist. They do everything equally well, with their god or goddess making them a little better at two specific things.
Oracles on the other hand are much more focused. Which mystery you chose defines your build.
Both can be an effective healer.
Both can be effective at any given role
Clerics can choose which role they want to fill on any given day
All that said, I'm enjoying the life oracles I'm currently playing.
| BadBird |
A Dual-Cursed Lore/Nature/Lunar Oracle can make a very effective melee/caster type, since they can easily stack 18/18 strength and charisma and they get both a power and a spell that wreck enemy rolls. Even if they have to cast Divine Favor/Power on round 1 instead of "round 0", they can still slap Quickened Ill Omen or Misfortune on something that round to pave the way for an ally's spell DC.
Clerics can dip one level of something else while still having the spell levels of an Oracle, and they have access to a ton of interesting effects and powers. An Evangelist Cleric with the Heroism subdomain and a level of a martial class can end up handing out Heroism and Inspire Courage all around even while focusing on melee ability.
| Atarlost |
Oracles and clerics don't fill the same role at all. It's extremely difficult to fill the actual healer role with an oracle. It can be done with lots pages of spell knowledge, but the cleric list is just not structured for classes that only get a few spells. HP healing is mostly you doing the job of a few first level wands. Or enabling sloppy high risk play by the rest of your group. Every few days an in combat heal might be useful and a little insurance is nice, but only insuring against HP is not worth a party slot. Even the full insurance clerics can offer wouldn't really worth a party slot if clerics weren't also capable of being effective combatants at the same time.
The lack of an aura for sacred summons and the large number of not very different summon monster spells to learn pretty much rule out the oracle for the other major cleric role.
The lack of fortitude hurts oracles as front liners. It's not terribly healthy for bad touch builds either. They can melee when not fighting something with a touch fort save effect, but they're going to need something to do to stay away from poisoners, energy drainers, and the like. Battle oracles aren't nonfunctional -- weak fortitude doesn't keep bards out of the front line -- but it's better to not have a weakness than to have it and I would recommend battle clerics over battle oracles even if they're a little weaker in the hurting things department.
What oracles are good for is being a theme sorcerer with more durability. If you like pattern spells you play a heavens oracle. Accept no substitutes. If you like fire a flame oracle will perform nearly as well as a sorcerer, better in some ways, and have armor and more HP. If they got scorching ray instead of resist energy I'd say they were just better. A number of mysteries are provide the same sort of sorcerer-like play.
Deadmanwalking
|
Oracles and clerics don't fill the same role at all. It's extremely difficult to fill the actual healer role with an oracle. It can be done with lots pages of spell knowledge, but the cleric list is just not structured for classes that only get a few spells. HP healing is mostly you doing the job of a few first level wands. Or enabling sloppy high risk play by the rest of your group. Every few days an in combat heal might be useful and a little insurance is nice, but only insuring against HP is not worth a party slot. Even the full insurance clerics can offer wouldn't really worth a party slot if clerics weren't also capable of being effective combatants at the same time.
Eh. As a human you can have everything you need pretty easily sans Pages, if a few levels late in the case of 3rd level spells (which is the only real bottleneck). There's a whole one spell needed to be a good healer at any other spell level.
They'll also need to do either physical combat or offensive spell casting, naturally, since healing is basically a non-combat role, but they make a fine primary healer for the group.
| Atarlost |
Atarlost wrote:Oracles and clerics don't fill the same role at all. It's extremely difficult to fill the actual healer role with an oracle. It can be done with lots pages of spell knowledge, but the cleric list is just not structured for classes that only get a few spells. HP healing is mostly you doing the job of a few first level wands. Or enabling sloppy high risk play by the rest of your group. Every few days an in combat heal might be useful and a little insurance is nice, but only insuring against HP is not worth a party slot. Even the full insurance clerics can offer wouldn't really worth a party slot if clerics weren't also capable of being effective combatants at the same time.Eh. As a human you can have everything you need pretty easily sans Pages, if a few levels late in the case of 3rd level spells (which is the only real bottleneck). There's a whole one spell needed to be a good healer at any other spell level.
They'll also need to do either physical combat or offensive spell casting, naturally, since healing is basically a non-combat role, but they make a fine primary healer for the group.
The human favored class bonus can't be used to select a spell of the highest level you can cast, meaning the oracle can't use it until three levels late by cleric standards. Your oracle actually fills out the third level removes later than the warpriest even with the human FCB. That is not remotely on track with when things are needed by CR and in typical Paizo adventure design.
Deadmanwalking
|
The human favored class bonus can't be used to select a spell of the highest level you can cast, meaning the oracle can't use it until three levels late by cleric standards. Your oracle actually fills out the third level removes later than the warpriest even with the human FCB. That is not remotely on track with when things are needed by CR and in typical Paizo adventure design.
Uh...having run two APs with no modifications that make this easier and using basically only Oracles for healing...it works fine. Especially if you have anyone in the PC group who can manage any of the three (which means if you have a Wizard, Paladin, Druid, or several other options).
It takes a bit of time to get rolling on the 3rd level condition removal specifically, but that rough patch lasts maybe three levels between 5 and 8 or so. You can make do with a few scrolls in the meantime easily enough.
| Silver Surfer |
Oracles and clerics don't fill the same role at all. It's extremely difficult to fill the actual healer role with an oracle. It can be done with lots pages of spell knowledge, but the cleric list is just not structured for classes that only get a few spells. HP healing is mostly you doing the job of a few first level wands. Or enabling sloppy high risk play by the rest of your group. Every few days an in combat heal might be useful and a little insurance is nice, but only insuring against HP is not worth a party slot. Even the full insurance clerics can offer wouldn't really worth a party slot if clerics weren't also capable of being effective combatants at the same time.
The lack of an aura for sacred summons and the large number of not very different summon monster spells to learn pretty much rule out the oracle for the other major cleric role.
The lack of fortitude hurts oracles as front liners. It's not terribly healthy for bad touch builds either. They can melee when not fighting something with a touch fort save effect, but they're going to need something to do to stay away from poisoners, energy drainers, and the like. Battle oracles aren't nonfunctional -- weak fortitude doesn't keep bards out of the front line -- but it's better to not have a weakness than to have it and I would recommend battle clerics over battle oracles even if they're a little weaker in the hurting things department.
What oracles are good for is being a theme sorcerer with more durability. If you like pattern spells you play a heavens oracle. Accept no substitutes. If you like fire a flame oracle will perform nearly as well as a sorcerer, better in some ways, and have armor and more HP. If they got scorching ray instead of resist energy I'd say they were just better. A number of mysteries are provide the same sort of sorcerer-like play.
Oooooohh no..... Battle Oracle over Battle Cleric everytime. Warpriest made the Battle Cleric redundant overnight.
Kahel Stormbender
|
Not sure how a life oracle is putting them self in excessive danger when healing. The safe curing revelation for example means NO attacks of opportunity when you cast cure spells while in melee. Energy Body, Life Link, channeling, Enhanced Cures, casting Cure spells as swift actions, these things make a life oracle as a rather good combat medic.
Not sure how I feel about life link, personally. But I can see the uses of it.
| Vatras |
Playing an oracle (life) I can say it is a better healer than the cleric.
Lifelink is quite useful, as it basically grants fast heal 5 to the party and it is easy enough to patch yourself up. Safe cures is also good, since you are completely safe to administer to your tank with the 3 hp left while the battle is still going on.
And yes, even with only limited spells, an oracle still can do a lot. While there are a lot of divine spells, many of them are redundant or are rarely useful. All the alignment spells like protection from evil, holy aura or holy word have 4 versions and you typically need only one, if even that. Others have problems with practical use, like resist energy or deathward. When it comes to resist energy, it costs you 4-5 spells to cover the typical party size, and it is only against one form of energy. If you know beforehand, you can drop all your spells into that, if you don't you don't have the time to buff everyone before they are crispy. The communal spell versions get around that, but are not allowed in all campaigns. Spells like deathward stay awkward, though. They are single, run only rounds, and are situational. So it is debatable, if you will ever bring one as cleric - I made do with restoration after the fight.
Which is the next point: you can cover for many spells with another. For example, but you don't need remove disease when you have lesser restoration, since it boils down to stat recovery. Same goes for blindness - if it was caused by magic (the usual cause), you can typically dispel it. In this way an oracle can make up for spells it does not have.
I had to wait a while until I got to the fun levels, though, which means 10+. Once you get flamestrike or greater command you can finally do more than support and hinder the enemy ;)
About channeling: it is a nice ability to have, especially at lower levels, but you can live without it, especially if someone else has healing abilities too. I have been using it less ad less since 10th level, except to top up the party after a fight.
The main thing is, if you have a purpose in mind, when you want to play a major divine caster. If you don't, pick the cleric. If you do, see if one of the mysteries of the oracle can cover it, as it will be better in that area. There is also the shaman, who is a bit weird, but also a 9th level caster.
(P.S.: I think someone already posted it, but oracles do get all the cure spells for free.)
| 666bender |
Oracles and clerics don't fill the same role at all. It's extremely difficult to fill the actual healer role with an oracle. It can be done with lots pages of spell knowledge, but the cleric list is just not structured for classes that only get a few spells. HP healing is mostly you doing the job of a few first level wands. Or enabling sloppy high risk play by the rest of your group. Every few days an in combat heal might be useful and a little insurance is nice, but only insuring against HP is not worth a party slot. Even the full insurance clerics can offer wouldn't really worth a party slot if clerics weren't also capable of being effective combatants at the same time.
The lack of an aura for sacred summons and the large number of not very different summon monster spells to learn pretty much rule out the oracle for the other major cleric role.
The lack of fortitude hurts oracles as front liners. It's not terribly healthy for bad touch builds either. They can melee when not fighting something with a touch fort save effect, but they're going to need something to do to stay away from poisoners, energy drainers, and the like. Battle oracles aren't nonfunctional -- weak fortitude doesn't keep bards out of the front line -- but it's better to not have a weakness than to have it and I would recommend battle clerics over battle oracles even if they're a little weaker in the hurting things department.
What oracles are good for is being a theme sorcerer with more durability. If you like pattern spells you play a heavens oracle. Accept no substitutes. If you like fire a flame oracle will perform nearly as well as a sorcerer, better in some ways, and have armor and more HP. If they got scorching ray instead of resist energy I'd say they were just better. A number of mysteries are provide the same sort of sorcerer-like play.
Blacked hand offer scorching ray
Deighton Thrane
|
Well, as someone who's had their oracle crumble to dust half way back to town when his scroll of remove curse failed, I'd vote cleric. Unless of course you also have a cleric/shaman/witch/warpriest/paladin in the party that's good at status removal. You can make some pretty cool characters out of the oracle class, but the ability to prepare whatever spell you need after resting is an incredible bonus, especially if your campaign isn't an urban campaign with spellcasting services available.