Initiative boosts don't apply retroactively, so unless you're Raging at combat start, that won't work.Plus all the other perks that come along with directly boosting dexterity. Not only does the Urban Barb not get an AC penalty, they'll gain more AC from their boosted dexterity. Better initiative too, for what that's worth.The Cord of Stubborn Resolve is a good fix for Fatigue. 1d6 Nonlethal (which, open to interpretation, can be mitigated by DR anyway) instead of Fatigue is excellent.
Urban Barbarian Rage is weaker, but it does allow you some more options. Int/Dex/Cha based skills, which UBarb can't, and no AC penalty which can be nice.
If you want a weaker rage with urban barb or to be a gun and sword build from a niche supplement sure. But if you're looking for parity, unchained barb is a better option.
Dex is subject to maximum armor bonus too, so a dex focused barb with a rage that grants bonuses to dex is going to bash up against that cap right around when he can afford a +2 or +4 dex belt or he's going to maximize his AC even when not raging and hit that cap sooner.
I recant. Even though I like Ubarbar better than barbar, I would never play it.
I can also no longer stand the buffinder of 6th level casting classes, so I exclusively play characters that can summon in PF. Psions, Druids, clerics, wizards, shamans, witches, sorcerers, ect. I tend to optimize nothing else but summoning. Like my last sorceress had utility spells and summoning and things like skill focus appraise.
I find playing t4 classes to be kind of a chore now. I have to go in expecting to be burden unless I roll well. Now my favorite character of all time was a PF fighter for levels 4-10. But he also had godly rolls in the rolld20 dice roller and thwarted attempts of both myself and the GM to kill him. After level 10 though, he respect to aegis for the rest of the campaign.
Ubarbar still gets it's teeth kicked in by real martial classes like Paladin, aegis or soulknife (and maybe rangers).
I'd be more okay with flying barbarians if they weren't the only martial class that could fly without wizards assisting them.
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I'd be more okay with flying barbarians if they weren't the only martial class that could fly without wizards assisting them.
What do you mean by 'without Wizards assisting them'?
I can make a flying Paladin pretty easily (Unsanctioned Knowledge). Or a Fighter (Mutation Warrior). Or Bloodrager (Fly is on their list). Or even an Unchained Monk (Wind Jump...this one has limitations). A Brawler, Chained Monk, Slayer, or Ranger would need a Feat to do it (Flight Mastery), and only get a few uses a day, but it's doable.
Rogue and Swashbuckler are screwed without a magic item specifically for this, but other than that, you can do that on any Martial.
Huh, thought it would be harder for other martials to do it, though Brawler, Chained Monk, and Slayer are really restricted on flying, and they also can't get the likes of pounce or saves so high even a kitsune enchantress has trouble with them alongside it.
Also side note, I don't count Paladins, Bloodragers, or Rangers as martial classes due to the access of spells. They fall into the "brute caster" category for me alongside the likes or warpriests, magi, and others.
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Huh, thought it would be harder for other martials to do it, though Brawler, Chained Monk, and Slayer are really restricted on flying, and they also can't get the likes of pounce or saves so high even a kitsune enchantress has trouble with them alongside it.
They can't get both Pounce and Flying, though. Since both are Totem lines. That's a pretty solid limitation.
They can get either one and amazing Saves. But so can Paladins. Why should Paladins get better stuff than Barbarians again?
Also side note, I don't count Paladins, Bloodragers, or Rangers as martial classes due to the access of spells. They fall into the "brute caster" category for me alongside the likes or warpriests, magi, and others.
One of the reasons I asked what you meant. People's opinions on this differ. :)
The thing is, when a class of one catagory vastly outclasses everything else in the same category I get irritated. Like, what the f!$$, why does this one get special treatment over everyone else? Why can't everyone else without magic have stuff on this level?
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The thing is, when a class of one catagory vastly outclasses everything else in the same category I get irritated. Like, what the f%$~, why does this one get special treatment over everyone else? Why can't everyone else without magic have stuff on this level?
But surely the solution to one martial class (indisputably the weakest category of Classes) being better than others is to power the others up, not power that one down.
Also they can get flight and pounce now.
Ah, so they can. Cool.
Yeah I'm with the power up the weaker classes camp too, I just get frustrated (possibly stupidly so) when I see barbarians get even more toys when the other martial classes are the ones that really need support at the moment.
Still, credit to paizo where it's due, they did remove the rouge from the trash bin with the unchained rogue. That class still needs more stuff it can pull off but it's on the road to recovery. Fighters are too with the WHM giving them advanced weapon training.
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Dex is subject to maximum armor bonus too, so a dex focused barb with a rage that grants bonuses to dex is going to bash up against that cap right around when he can afford a +2 or +4 dex belt or he's going to maximize his AC even when not raging and hit that cap sooner.
Let me introduce you to uncapped barbarians:
This guy;
That girl;
These guys;
Oh, and maybe that one too. :)
All of them... sporting some kind of wrist protection also known as bracers... hmmm.. ;)
Dex is subject to maximum armor bonus too, so a dex focused barb with a rage that grants bonuses to dex is going to bash up against that cap right around when he can afford a +2 or +4 dex belt or he's going to maximize his AC even when not raging and hit that cap sooner.Let me introduce you to uncapped barbarians:
This guy;
That girl;
These guys;
Oh, and maybe that one too. :)All of them... sporting some kind of wrist protection also known as bracers... hmmm.. ;)
There is, of course, always the option of the Haramaki, which doesn't have max dex.
Dex is subject to maximum armor bonus too, so a dex focused barb with a rage that grants bonuses to dex is going to bash up against that cap right around when he can afford a +2 or +4 dex belt or he's going to maximize his AC even when not raging and hit that cap sooner.Let me introduce you to uncapped barbarians:
This guy;
That girl;
These guys;
Oh, and maybe that one too. :)All of them... sporting some kind of wrist protection also known as bracers... hmmm.. ;)
So paying an awful lot extra for bracers of armor to get less AC overall. I think my point stands.
There is, of course, always the option of the Haramaki, which doesn't have max dex.Dex is subject to maximum armor bonus too, so a dex focused barb with a rage that grants bonuses to dex is going to bash up against that cap right around when he can afford a +2 or +4 dex belt or he's going to maximize his AC even when not raging and hit that cap sooner.Let me introduce you to uncapped barbarians:
This guy;
That girl;
These guys;
Oh, and maybe that one too. :)All of them... sporting some kind of wrist protection also known as bracers... hmmm.. ;)
There is actually a contradiction about the max dex of the Haramaki and the Silken Ceremonial Robe in Ultimate Combat, the book that introduced these new armor types. In the section on eastern armor, they have no max dex -- but in the section on piecemeal armor, they have max dex values of +10. Even if the +10 value applies only when those armors are worn as torso armor with arm and/or leg armor, it would have no effect since the max dex values for all types or arm and leg armor are lower. In other words, before you get to the point where that +10 max dex would matter, the haramaki and the silken ceremonial robe will have gone from being piecemeal armor pieces to the sole armor worn.
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I didn't see you making the point that barbarians have lower overall AC. I saw you saying Dex barbarians hit the max Dex cap sooner. As you can see, those barbarians don't do that, either by a high cap or complete lack of one.
Given that it was in response to the comment about dexragers "getting all the benefits of higher dexterity" i thought people would connect the dots that in general, no they dont, they either settle for lower AC when not raging and cap out during a rage, maximize AC and forgo the dexrage AC benefit, pay more for bracers of armor to again have a lower AC, or hope their GM is willing to give them access to and knowledge of eastern armors in their campaign.
None of which is as much of a problem to dex focused Ubarbs.
I will note that paladins also get access to Angelic Aspect, which allows a flight speed.
Also, instead of sword bond, they could theoretically get a mount, and that mount could be a griffon, hippogriff or pegasi at higher levels.
Rangers can summon a dire bat, medium air elemental, or giant wasp to carry them aloft if need be. I was actually suprised the class didn't have a shapechanging option that granted a flight speed, since they can access burrow, climb and swim speeds. They too can get flying animal companions.
I don't personally consider the barbarian a 'no-magic' class, since the higher level rage powers are defined as supernatural, not Ex. The only non-magic classes from core are fighter and rogue (and the latter only if he doesn't take mInor Magic). Given the bizarre shape-changing and elemental energies rage powers can wield, he's really not any less magical then a monk is.
==Aelryinth
I didn't see you making the point that barbarians have lower overall AC. I saw you saying Dex barbarians hit the max Dex cap sooner. As you can see, those barbarians don't do that, either by a high cap or complete lack of one.Given that it was in response to the comment about dexragers "getting all the benefits of higher dexterity" i thought people would connect the dots that in general, no they dont, they either settle for lower AC when not raging and cap out during a rage, maximize AC and forgo the dexrage AC benefit, pay more for bracers of armor to again have a lower AC, or hope their GM is willing to give them access to and knowledge of eastern armors in their campaign.
None of which is as much of a problem to dex focused Ubarbs.
Yeah it is. Every Dex-based character has to worry about how their rising dexterity interacts with their choice of armor. After all, a dex-based Ubarb is still going to (presumably) be boosting his dex up every 4th level and getting a dex-enhancing belt.
The only difference is that the Urban Barb can boost his dexterity up faster. Oh, and the Urban Barbarian isn't taking a -2 AC hit just for raging, so he's already ahead of the Unbarb in the AC race.
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So paying an awful lot extra for bracers of armor to get less AC overall. I think my point stands.
Well, dunno, because this assumes you already have a belt of Dex +6 for a total Dexterity of 26... without any belt the dex barbarian would be anywhere around Dex 18 to Dex 24. That's a dex bonus +4 to +7, which is easily achievable by lots of armor choices.
Mithril Chain Shirt is max dex +6
Eel Skin Leather is max dex +7
Celestial Armor is max dex +8 (and you'll have belt at that point)
Edit: I mistakenly assumed you were talking about the Unchained Barbarian, but re-reading your post, I think you were talking about something else. i.e. Unchained Barbarian does not boost Dex when raging... he just gets a plain +2 to hit and +2 to dmg.
So paying an awful lot extra for bracers of armor to get less AC overall. I think my point stands.Well, dunno, because this assumes you already have a belt of Dex +6 for a total Dexterity of 26... without any belt the dex barbarian would be anywhere around Dex 18 to Dex 24. That's a dex bonus +4 to +7, which is easily achievable by lots of armor choices.
Mithril Chain Shirt is max dex +6
Eel Skin Leather is max dex +7
Celestial Armor is max dex +8 (and you'll have belt at that point)Edit: I mistakenly assumed you were talking about the Unchained Barbarian, but re-reading your post, I think you were talking about something else. i.e. Unchained Barbarian does not boost Dex when raging... he just gets a plain +2 to hit and +2 to dmg.
Yep, im referring to Ubarb vs one of the 2 archetypes of barbarian that get a direct bonus to dexterity during a rage.
So a Dex focused dexrage barb is probably going to be floating at +6 or 7 to dex or so by level 8. Meaning raging is going to take him over his dex cap. (you likely cant afford celestial armor by 8th level).
Tl;DR of my position, Ubarb takes better advantage of a dex build and uses its resources more efficiently than the other archetypes. They may be playable but their wavering dex stat based on raging or not makes inefficient use of the stat if you're wearing armor and forfeits the bonus HP as well.
There is, of course, always the option of the Haramaki, which doesn't have max dex.Dex is subject to maximum armor bonus too, so a dex focused barb with a rage that grants bonuses to dex is going to bash up against that cap right around when he can afford a +2 or +4 dex belt or he's going to maximize his AC even when not raging and hit that cap sooner.Let me introduce you to uncapped barbarians:
This guy;
That girl;
These guys;
Oh, and maybe that one too. :)All of them... sporting some kind of wrist protection also known as bracers... hmmm.. ;)
There is actually a contradiction about the max dex of the Haramaki and the Silken Ceremonial Robe in Ultimate Combat, the book that introduced these new armor types. In the section on eastern armor, they have no max dex -- but in the section on piecemeal armor, they have max dex values of +10. Even if the +10 value applies only when those armors are worn as torso armor with arm and/or leg armor, it would have no effect since the max dex values for all types or arm and leg armor are lower. In other words, before you get to the point where that +10 max dex would matter, the haramaki and the silken ceremonial robe will have gone from being piecemeal armor pieces to the sole armor worn.
I wouldn't worry about the piecemeal rules. Putting together a full suit doesn't always get you the same stats as an off the rack one. I know that I found one with 2 less AC if you piecemeal a whole suit vs off the rack.
So I wouldn't call it a contradiction so much as the piecemeal rules not being meant to accurately simulate full suit creation but meant to simulate partial suit use.
I also don't see a contradiction in an armor having different max numbers when worn with something it wasn't designed to [ie: extra armor + Haramaki/Silken Ceremonial Robe]. You are looking at the two armors in a vacuum. Let me really blow your mind then. Put on a Haramaki/Silken Ceremonial Robe normally, take it off and then use the rules for piecemeal armor. piecemeal donning takes 5 rounds less. Why? Because for it to be piecemeal you're using multiple pieces that add up to make the time longer.
"If a character has only one armor piece, that piece is considered the totality of her armor, and she uses the statistics of that piece as her armor.": for the Haramaki/Silken Ceremonial Robe, that 'piece' is a whole suit of armor, so you look at the normal entry. If you add other parts to them, then you have to use the chart stats with the max dex.
PS: To show you how off the whole system is, you can make a light suit of armor with a +5 AC and 4 max dex, better than any off the rack armors. Lamellar cuirass torso, Studded leather legs, Padded arms: 27gp, 22 lbs, max dex 4, armor check 0, spell fail 15%. Better than a chain shirt by 1 AC, 2 armor check, 5 spell fail, 3 lbs and 73 gp. beats it in every category. Look at the other light armors and tell me with a straight face I should use this system as a guide for anything... :P
The only difference is that the Urban Barb can boost his dexterity up faster.
That's been the whole point all along. He hits the max's faster because it's a dex boost. That's a negative. Full stop.
As to the rest, urban barbarian makes a fine option if you want a barbarian from the city that uses dex. If you want to use the other 97% of archetypes or just the base class with dex though, Ubarb opens up those to dex options.
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Forgive me for saying this...
But a mithril chain shirt with a Max dex of +6 (22 Dex) is probably higher then the walk around dex of any but the most devoted Dex character at level 8.
Most characters don't get a +4 stat booster until 10th or so. 16k ain't cheap.
He also doesn't suffer the AC penalty of a raging standard barb.
So, even if he blows the dex cap...so what? AC wise, he's probably still way ahead of the game. Unless the standard barb is wearing mithral heavy armor, he's not going to have equal walk around AC, and he's going to have less AC when raging.
Mithril celestial armor will take the character all the way to Dex 30. If he goes higher then Dex 32, he's better off taking Bracers of Armor +8 then the max +9 AC bonus of a chain shirt +5, to take advantage of the unlimited Dex. It may cost a bit more, but more AC always does at those levels. And it all applies against incorps, which is a nice bonus.
Functionally, I just don't see it all as a problem.
==Aelryinth
Forgive me for saying this...
But a mithril chain shirt with a Max dex of +6 (22 Dex) is probably higher then the walk around dex of any but the most devoted Dex character at level 8.
Most characters don't get a +4 stat booster until 10th or so. 16k ain't cheap.
He also doesn't suffer the AC penalty of a raging standard barb.
So, even if he blows the dex cap...so what? AC wise, he's probably still way ahead of the game. Unless the standard barb is wearing mithral heavy armor, he's not going to have equal walk around AC, and he's going to have less AC when raging.
Mithril celestial armor will take the character all the way to Dex 30. If he goes higher then Dex 32, he's better off taking Bracers of Armor +8 then the max +9 AC bonus of a chain shirt +5, to take advantage of the unlimited Dex. It may cost a bit more, but more AC always does at those levels. And it all applies against incorps, which is a nice bonus.
Functionally, I just don't see it all as a problem.
==Aelryinth
Chengar Qordath was pointing out the bonuses to adding dex instead of a bonus to hit and one of them was a adding that extra dex to AC. The "so what?" was people refuting that as you're more likely to hit the cap while raging.
So it's NEVER been a debate about who has the higher AC but a debate over whether adding dex is superior to hit. So the "doesn't suffer the AC penalty of a raging" isn't even a factor as we aren't debating overall AC or who has the best total. It's about who can use the bonuses the best. A person that regularly doesn't get the full AC bonus from their dex bump can't claim it as an awesome benefit and pointing to another benefit, like no AC rage loss, doesn't alter that.
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Tl;DR of my position, Ubarb takes better advantage of a dex build and uses its resources more efficiently than the other archetypes.
Agreed. You can now build a dex-based or str-based barbarian. Or whatever else 'based' barbarian. If you want less damage and a more rounded character, you can do that too, because Unchained Barbarian does not pin the rage ability unto a statistic (like it did with STR). The only caveat remaining on the rage ability is that it has to apply to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls and thrown weapon damage rolls.
They may be playable but their wavering dex stat based on raging or not makes inefficient use of the stat if you're wearing armor and forfeits the bonus HP as well.
Hmm... I'm losing you again on this one: Unchained Barbarian (I'm assuming that's what you mean by Ubarb) do NOT have wavering dex stats. Their Dex, Str or any other stat remains static and does not change when they are raging.
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Ubarb is probably Urban Barb, oh mighty Cormyte. They do indeed have varying Dex bonus by their variant of Rage.
UnBarb is Unchained Barb.
==Aelryinth
Ubarb is probably Urban Barb, oh mighty Cormyte. They do indeed have varying Dex bonus by their variant of Rage.
UnBarb is Unchained Barb.
==Aelryinth
Thats correct. "They" references other archetypes, bad grammar aside.
