Seems like a fun concept, but in practice would I be stretching myself too thin?
it works okay, you'd be missing a free hand to cast spells unless you use a double weapon. and you don't get a lot of extra damage per hit so it's not as good as some classes, but it would work fine.
Low levels would probably be hard. Medium bab + twf penalty.
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Yeah...it's the lack of spellcasting that does this build real damage.
That said...Arcane Duelist gets a Bonded Weapon, which would let you cast like this, so it's doable. I personally hate Arcane Duelist for the bonded weapon since it means you need weapon in hand to cast reliably, but it's an option.
As mentioned, accuracy might be an issue at very early levels, but by 7th, Good Hope + Haste + Bardic Performance are making up for that and more. Heck, even by 5th, Bardic Performance compensates for the TWF penalty.
The big issue left after fixing spells is that you have to jump through hoops to make this work and don't get a lot out of it. Your static damage is solid, but it's not at Rogue levels or anything, and you're gonna have to go Dex-heavy to make this work rather than Str.
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You would need charisma to cast spells, and even assuming you weren't going to cast any offensive spells you still probably want to start with at least 14 charisma.
You need dex for TWF feats (and you don't get bonus feats). You need at least a 15 dex so you can eventually pickup all the important TWF feats.
You need strength because this is where your damage will come from. You have inspire courage to help boost it as well, but that comes on slowly, too slowly to prop up your damage or your medium BAB enough. Remember, you're taking at least a -2 to hit on every swing from TWF.
You need con, because you're in melee range. Your going to be getting hit. That d8 hit dice isn't so generous when it comes to hp.
That leaves wisdom and int as your only options to drop stats.
Just on the surface this is a difficult proposition.
You're be much better off to focus on a single two-handed weapon, especially one with reach, like a spear. Even better a ranged weapon like a bow is great for a bard.
Playable? Sure. Good? Probably not. TWF is mechanically weak without high investment.
The problem with TWF is, that you need high Dex (so you need either dex to damage or high point buy), and a significant amount of bonus damage. The problem with the bonus damage part is that Power Attack is weak for TWF (it actually lowers your off hand average damage).
Oh, and you need to spend twice as much money on weapons. You completly suck when you can't make a full attack, your AoOs are weak, and you only gain a little over half the normale benefit from Haste/Allegro.
Bards need some Cha, quite a bit Con (HD8 without heavy armor in melee), and they really don't want to dump Int or Wis too much. You can offset some of the problems/downsides with feats, but Bards have no bonus feats.
So, general overview:
You will very likely be MAD. Little way to avoid that. You have the classic TWF problem of wanting high dex, but needing at least some str so your damage isn't terrible. And few of the dex to damage options really help you here, since they aren't for TWF. Maybe agile weapons, but it takes time to get a pair of those.
You can still spell cast if at least one of your hands uses one of the glove type weapons (spiked gauntlet, cestus, etc.). So make a boxer.
As far as static bonuses to damage...yeah, you are good. There is the +4/+4 from inspire courage, and another +5 damage from arcane strike. That, combined with the fact that you can go dimensional dervish, means that you have enough going on to do somewhat well. Better if you go with dawnflower dervish, since they can get +8/+8- that propels you straight into the realm of full martials.
TWF is really only powerful when going full BAB (or damn close to it), as it requires a lot of attack bonuses to maximize its damage effectiveness, and going a very high amount of Strength (or Dexterity, depending on build) to maximize your attack bonus and damage per hit.
It also requires a lot of Dexterity (due to pre-requisites), feats, and needs time for it to come online properly.
Can it be good? Yeah, when you have all of the relevant feats (TWF chain, Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend if Strength-based). Is it good starting out? Not really.
TWF is reliant on two subjects for its overall damage output: On-Hit Effects (such as Sneak Attack), and Crit Fishing (getting as many Criticals as possible). You really only want to use weapons that are 18-20/X2, and you'll want to make sure you can make them Light, so as to reduce your to-hit penalty. (Light Shields and the Shield Master feat are perhaps the best way to accomplish this, as Shield Master leaves you with 0 penalty for TWF, though Two-Weapon Warrior archetype also works, but with the release of the Weapon Master's Handbook, it's not worth it.)
To that end, Bards don't fit the description. They are too MAD, requiring Charisma for casting, and some Intelligence for skill points and the like, and don't have any class features which synergize with TWF (spellcasting requires a hand for basically every spell, and you'll need both hands for TWF). The best TWFers are Slayers (Full BAB, pseudo-Sneak Attack, etc.), the UCRogue (though going Elven Curved Blade and two-handed works the best), and the Fighter (due to their sheer feat, though for them, VMC would be better).
I find that a Bard's spellcasting and Bardic Performance are his best features, and it's best to take things that complement those aspects if you want to optimize them. They aren't really great melee characters, lacking proficiency in heavier armors, and lacking hit dice, and not having perfect saving throws, means they're going to go splat soon enough.
I will say that a bard might be able to get around the MAD requirements...by dumping. A LOT.
They have good will save, so dropping that to 8 is painful, but not 'fighter without AWT' levels. They also have 6+ skill points. If you decide to abandon their role as skill monkeys (somewhat preserved by all the bonuses they get to knowledge, as well as versatile performance)...well, dropping their INT to 7 isn't the worst thing.
So it is possible to get TWF stats on a 20 point buy. Here they are-
STR: 16 DEX: 16 (14) CON: 14 INT: 7 WIS: 9 CHA: 14
This is enough to focus on str for attack/damage (since it is simpler- less need to spread thin resources for dex to damage), enough dex that you can forget about it after 4th level, and a serviceable score in con and cha.
Not saying that these dumps stats are a good idea. Just saying that you have a functional character with...problems.
You don't need to go Str-based with this. Between Arcane Strike, Inspire Courage, Piranha Strike and Heroism, you can keep damage and attack bonuses up enough to go with a Finesse Build. River Rat and Deific Obedience for a worshipper of Pharasma can boost a dagger build even higher.
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Don't forget that Bards get access to Arcane Strike. I second going Arcane Duelist for this build, if you're gonna go for it. By 5th, they've got the +2 attack/damage from Inspire Courage, and another +2 damage from Arcane Strike. That's actually pretty reasonable. When you can afford it, you could go pick up a pair of Agile shortswords (or w/e your weapon of choice is), made easier since one of them will be your Bonded Weapon so you can enchant it yourself if you feel so inclined.
You'll probably end up focusing on archery at low levels until you can get your build up and running, which isn't too bad with your good starting dexterity. Combine all of this with the feat at higher levels that adds 1d6 sonic damage to ally attacks affected by your bardic music, and you'd be pretty reasonable. Archery would be an EASIER way to go for this, but you could make it work with the right item choices.
*Rogues* have trouble making it good, and they get a flat bonus of ~1.75/level damage per attack.
I'd be extremely hesitant to attempt this with a bard.
The only thing I'd touch twf with outside of sneak attackers would be paladins or cavaliers, and even then only if combined with Order of the Flame or Oath of Vengeance. Otherwise you'll have too much trouble dealing damage.
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*Rogues* have trouble making it good, and they get a flat bonus of ~1.75/level damage per attack.
I'd be extremely hesitant to attempt this with a bard.
The only thing I'd touch twf with outside of sneak attackers would be paladins or cavaliers, and even then only if combined with Order of the Flame or Oath of Vengeance. Otherwise you'll have too much trouble dealing damage.
Bards have a built-in accuracy enhancer with Inspire courage that rogues can't match. They are much better at TWF than rogues, although unchained rogues can catch up if they hit on the first attack with debilitating injury.
I don't know that I would say rogues can't match it. If the rogue can hit on the first attack with a sneak attack, Debilitating Injury can decrease their AC by 4 to 8. That's better than the bard's inspire courage bonus.
But none of that is particularly relevant.
The question is, is a bard good at TWF? And the answer is, meh, not really. You could do it, but it's just not going to be very good.
I do believe people may have a point though, that if you're going to do it that going weapon finesse route with arcane strike and no strength (str 10) with piranha strike is going to work better than trying to use strength for damage. Combine that with daggers, river rat, and pharsma obedience and your making the best of a bad situation. You're still never going to be a heavy hitter, but you'll deal some damage. This also has the benefit of reducing the feats needed since you wont want double slice or two weapon rend. You basically just need TWF and ITWF.
TWF with a musical saw and a large ham.
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I don't know that I would say rogues can't match it. If the rogue can hit on the first attack with a sneak attack, Debilitating Injury can decrease their AC by 4 to 8. That's better than the bard's inspire courage bonus.
I did mention unchained rogues get Debilitating Injury, but they still have to hit with the first attack and do SA damage to pull it off.
I enjoy playing bards, however one of the bards I played with once ran around with butterfly sting and a keen rapier. His damage output... roughly zero. His damage output by proxy? Well, he was handing out numerous party buffs along with free crits for the barbarian... If you go that route, I recommend purchasing a martial polearm with a x4 crit to hand off to a heavy hitter in the party at the start of the scenario. Also, you may want to consider Skald if you really want TWF. Their strength boost can make the MAD a bit more manageable.
Another random thought about Skald. With your rage power selection you can gain 2 claw attacks. That would eliminate your need for actually having the two-weapon fighting chain, you'd always have your hands free, and since you wont be getting iterative attacks until pretty late, the drawback is mitigated. Additionally, later in the game you can pick up the last rage power on that chain to give yourself and everyone else in your party pounce, which I'm sure would be very appreciated. A common drawback of Skald is that casters generally will not be taking advantage of your buffs, however if you are able to take full advantage of them and at least 1 slugger in your group is getting a pounce attack from it, you shouldn't find yourself too far behind.
It shouldn't that tough for a Bard to TWF, given that they have access to Inspire Courage and Heroism. Even dual-wielding Fencing Grace rapiers won't sink his attack, and if he can use Effortless Lace they're fairly effortless. If the Bard is an Arcane Duelist, then spellcasting while holding two weapons works just fine. Something like:
10 STR, 16/18 DEX, 14 CON, 10INT, 10WIS, 14CHA
1. Weapon Finesse / Human: Two-Weapon Fighting / Arcane Duelist: Arcane Strike
3. Weapon Focus: Rapier
5. Fencing Grace
...is quite functional, if not game-breaking. The -4 from starting to swing two rapiers around at 5 is already cancelled out by Heroism and Inspire Courage.
Also, the Dawnflower Dervish's battle dance inspire can make for very mean TWF if you ignore Dervish Dance - and don't mind hogging all the battle-juice.
It shouldn't that tough for a Bard to TWF, given that they have access to Inspire Courage and Heroism. Even dual-wielding Fencing Grace rapiers won't sink his attack, and if he can use Effortless Lace they're fairly effortless. If the Bard is an Arcane Duelist, then spellcasting while holding two weapons works just fine. Something like:
10 STR, 16/18 DEX, 14 CON, 10INT, 10WIS, 14CHA
1. Weapon Finesse / Human: Two-Weapon Fighting / Arcane Duelist: Arcane Strike
3. Weapon Focus: Rapier
5. Fencing Grace...is quite functional, if not game-breaking. The -4 from starting to swing two rapiers around at 5 is already cancelled out by Heroism and Inspire Courage.
Also, the Dawnflower Dervish's battle dance inspire can make for very mean TWF if you ignore Dervish Dance - and don't mind hogging all the battle-juice.
Even buffed, a Bard is only going to be at-best an unbuffed Martial.
Also note that this build will not be online for 1/4 of the entire game. That's 25% of your character's lifespan (if not more, assuming a 1-20 campaign) where he's effectively useless.
I've ran numbers on this before, and trust me, it doesn't pan out. Although this set of numbers might be better by the endgame, it's still not pretty.
By level 20, he'll have (15 BAB + 10 Dexterity + 4 Inspire Courage + + 2 Heroism + 1 Haste + 5 Weapon - 4 Power Attack/Piranha Strike) +33 to hit. Most creatures will have 35+ AC, hitting two, maybe three times, and deal (3.5 dice + 10 Dexterity + 5 Weapon + 4 Inspire Courage + 8 Power Attack/Piranha Strike + 5 Arcane Strike) 35.5 damage per attack, equating to ~106 DPR. Most creatures by that level have over 250 hit points, meaning this would take a little over two, or three rounds total, to kill a single relevant CR creature. If you tacked on TWF, you might get another attack in, but you'll reduce the chances of succeeding in your other attacks.
A semi-optimized Barbarian will have (20 BAB + 16 Strength + 4 Inspire Courage + 4 Greater Heroism + 1 Haste + 7 Weapon - 6 Power Attack) +46 to hit, scaling down to +31. He'll be able to hit all standard creatures with 4 of his 5 attacks 95% of the time, and he'll only miss his final iterative 25% of the time. Each attack will deal (5.5 dice + 24 Strength + 7 Weapon + 18 Power Attack + 4 Inspire Courage) 58 points of damage per attack, resulting in 290 DPR, which can be accomplished with a Charge attack (adding an extra +2 to hit). Only the most durable and highest AC of creatures could survive that full attack.
You could be better if you were more selfish by picking certain archetypes, but by that point you might as well be playing a full-on Martial class (such as a Ranger or Paladin, or even Bloodrager) if you're looking to optimize your melee capabilities and don't care so much about your casting.
What makes a Bard so great is their spellcasting, their utility, and their performances. I don't see a good reason to capitalize on something that their class features, archetypes or otherwise, don't properly fulfill.
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It shouldn't that tough for a Bard to TWF, given that they have access to Inspire Courage and Heroism. Even dual-wielding Fencing Grace rapiers won't sink his attack, and if he can use Effortless Lace they're fairly effortless. If the Bard is an Arcane Duelist, then spellcasting while holding two weapons works just fine. Something like:
10 STR, 16/18 DEX, 14 CON, 10INT, 10WIS, 14CHA
1. Weapon Finesse / Human: Two-Weapon Fighting / Arcane Duelist: Arcane Strike
3. Weapon Focus: Rapier
5. Fencing Grace...is quite functional, if not game-breaking. The -4 from starting to swing two rapiers around at 5 is already cancelled out by Heroism and Inspire Courage.
Also, the Dawnflower Dervish's battle dance inspire can make for very mean TWF if you ignore Dervish Dance - and don't mind hogging all the battle-juice.
Even buffed, a Bard is only going to be at-best an unbuffed Martial.
Also note that this build will not be online for 1/4 of the entire game. That's 25% of your character's lifespan (if not more, assuming a 1-20 campaign) where he's effectively useless.
I've ran numbers on this before, and trust me, it doesn't pan out. Although this set of numbers might be better by the endgame, it's still not pretty.
By level 20, he'll have (15 BAB + 10 Dexterity + 4 Inspire Courage + + 2 Heroism + 1 Haste + 5 Weapon - 4 Power Attack/Piranha Strike) +33 to hit. Most creatures will have 35+ AC, hitting two, maybe three times, and deal (3.5 dice + 10 Dexterity + 5 Weapon + 4 Inspire Courage + 8 Power Attack/Piranha Strike + 5 Arcane Strike) 35.5 damage per attack, equating to ~106 DPR. Most creatures by that level have over 250 hit points, meaning this would take a little over two, or three rounds total, to kill a single relevant CR creature. If you tacked on TWF, you might get another attack in, but you'll reduce the chances of succeeding in your other attacks.
A semi-optimized Barbarian...
Because it allows for more personal versatility.
This is a bard who still casts spells basically as well as any other bard. The primary difference is that he's also a solid melee combatant. Sure, he isn't OPTIMAL, but no one ever said he was. At low-medium levels he'll do enough damage, and if you factor in all of the buffs he's throwing out (remember, that Barbarian didn't get Inspire Courage and Greater Heroism from nowhere), you're actually contributing a fair bit of damage by proxy. I'd actually like to see the numbers for your Barbarian without the bard buffs to see how much he's doing, so that we could gauge the bard's actual contribution/effectiveness.
I mean, an archer would probably be WAY safer and put out more consistent damage, but still, I'm pretty sure two-weapon fighting could hold it's own. Add to that the other utilitarian aspects of bardic spellcasting and their skill-monkey features, and you've got... well, a jack-of-all-trades that's actually pretty darn good at all of them.
Even buffed, a Bard is only going to be at-best an unbuffed Martial.
Even assuming that an incredibly generalized statement like that was simply and obviously true, there's an awful lot more to an RPG than just selecting the most banal power-gaming builds over and over again because 'why do anything else'? Even assuming that a Bard going melee with two weapons isn't quite as good as what could be achieved with a heavily optimized martial character, they also still get to do Bard things, including buffing the other combatants on their team.
Also note that this build will not be online for 1/4 of the entire game. That's 25% of your character's lifespan (if not more, assuming a 1-20 campaign) where he's effectively useless...
I hardly think going through levels 1-4 with a finessed rapier, Arcane Strike and Inspire Courage is 'effectively useless', or some terrible price to pay.
Anyways, the framework I put up there isn't some big optimized build concept, it's simply meant to show that it's quite easily doable with some obvious options. I would never compare level 20 numbers to demonstrate anything, but at level 9, a Bard with two rapiers using Heroism, Inspire Courage, Allegro and Arcane Strike can easily be dealing around 15 damage on a hit and making 5 attacks on a full attack, with an attack rating comparable to a typical martial. All his buffs are self-applied, and Inspire Courage also benefits the party - as does his range of other class features, since he may well be the one buffing the martial. Whether the fact that he's going to be somewhat less effective in sheer damage-dealing than a ruthlessly optimized martial character makes him somehow pointless or useless is, I suppose, up to a player to decide.
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I know I just mentioned this on the Rogue thread, but if you have the room for the extra feat, picking up Shield-Trained and dual-wielding heavy shields as an Arcane Duelist could work pretty well. Plus, shields aren't generally as intimidating as having a weapon out, so keeping your shield on for spellcasting wouldn't be as bad.
Though a shield-trained bard of gorum is both awesome and ridiculous at the same time. Actually... I really want to make this now. Character concept status: stored.
...It shouldn't that tough for a Bard to TWF, given that they have access to Inspire Courage and Heroism. Even dual-wielding Fencing Grace rapiers won't sink his attack, and if he can use Effortless Lace they're fairly effortless. If the Bard is an Arcane Duelist, then spellcasting while holding two weapons works just fine. Something like:
10 STR, 16/18 DEX, 14 CON, 10INT, 10WIS, 14CHA
1. Weapon Finesse / Human: Two-Weapon Fighting / Arcane Duelist: Arcane Strike
3. Weapon Focus: Rapier
5. Fencing Grace...is quite functional, if not game-breaking. The -4 from starting to swing two rapiers around at 5 is already cancelled out by Heroism and Inspire Courage.
Also, the Dawnflower Dervish's battle dance inspire can make for very mean TWF if you ignore Dervish Dance - and don't mind hogging all the battle-juice.
Even buffed, a Bard is only going to be at-best an unbuffed Martial.
Also note that this build will not be online for 1/4 of the entire game. That's 25% of your character's lifespan (if not more, assuming a 1-20 campaign) where he's effectively useless.
I've ran numbers on this before, and trust me, it doesn't pan out. Although this set of numbers might be better by the endgame, it's still not pretty.
By level 20, he'll have (15 BAB + 10 Dexterity + 4 Inspire Courage + + 2 Heroism + 1 Haste + 5 Weapon - 4 Power Attack/Piranha Strike) +33 to hit. Most creatures will have 35+ AC, hitting two, maybe three times, and deal (3.5 dice + 10 Dexterity + 5 Weapon + 4 Inspire Courage + 8 Power Attack/Piranha Strike + 5 Arcane Strike) 35.5 damage per attack, equating to ~106 DPR. Most creatures by that level have over 250 hit points, meaning this would take a little over two, or three rounds total, to kill a single relevant CR creature. If you tacked on TWF, you might get another attack in, but you'll reduce the chances of succeeding in your
Greater Heroism can be acquired with the Boots from the Advanced Class Guide, and are trivial to combine with Boots of Speed. (I thought it was for 30 rounds per day, but that can be shored up with Juggernaut Pauldrons merged with a Cloak of Resistance, which can provide base Heroism.)
Inspire Courage at max level provides a +4 bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls. Not factoring that in, he's sitting at ~+42 to hit, and 54 damage per hit. It hurts his attack potential, making his final iterative hit only 50% of the time, and his tertiary iterative hit 25% of the time, but the damage output isn't that affected. He's still dealing ~270 DPR, which isn't in that "Almost everything" range, but it can certainly destroy a lot of powerful stuff.
I'm not even including things like Weapon Focus, and I'm certain that I could squeeze a couple more Strength modifiers to make the lack of Inspire Courage trivial.
All I'm saying, is that 75 DPR is in no way comparable or competent compared to 270 DPR. Even if you bump it up by being a selfish Bard, that's going to be ~90 DPR, at best, which means you're only 1/3 as effective as the Barbarian. Last I checked, that's not competent, that's just a joke in the endgame.
Comparing level 20 builds is virtually meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but even just a super-basic level 20 rundown for a basic dual-fencing Bard would be 7 attacks at around 30 damage per hit without even using Power Attack or more than the most obvious buffs and items. Your run-down for a level 20 Bard is missing, among other potential things, Dance of a Hundred/Thousand Cuts and Discordant Voice. You didn't even give a level 20 combat Bard Greater Heroism or Weapon Focus. I don't doubt an optimized Barbarian will out-damage a dual-rapier Bard at level 20, but your analysis looks like straight-out scarecrow-murder.
Hell, with just two +1 rapiers, Inspire Courage, Allegro and a +4DEX belt at level 8, a Bard can already do over 75DPR on a great round, making 5 attacks that deal 15.5 damage with a high-crit weapon.
EDIT: perhaps worth noting as well is that a Bard can pick up Dimensional Dervish by level 15.
I know I just mentioned this on the Rogue thread, but if you have the room for the extra feat, picking up Shield-Trained and dual-wielding heavy shields as an Arcane Duelist could work pretty well. Plus, shields aren't generally as intimidating as having a weapon out, so keeping your shield on for spellcasting wouldn't be as bad.
Though a shield-trained bard of gorum is both awesome and ridiculous at the same time. Actually... I really want to make this now. Character concept status: stored.
Light shields don't interfere with spellcasting so if you're willing to take the damage dice hit you don't even need to be an Arcane Duelist.
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Can we please compare Level 5, or if you want a longer shot, level 10 builds.
Because Level 10 is a level that can be expected to be reached, and still be played.
Level 20 is a pure hypothetical comparison, with my experience, no relevance to anything whatsoever, as even if you reach it (which about 95% of all campaigns simply dont), its mostly for one or two fights before the campaign ends then.
Level 10 is what you can aspire to, and expect to get some mileage out.
But a build needs to have come together at level 5, and feel like you are playing yor build, and not a proto-caterpillar that will someday hatch into your prefered build.
Level 20 theoretical aircastle calculations have no informational value about how a build will actually perform in play!
Yeah, Skald CREAMS bard in the damage department purely from having access to pounce, but I almost feel like a skald PLUS a bard would be pretty freakin' amazing as a melee duo.
A pure Dex TWF bard finessing kukris with butterfly sting, and a Str based Skald power attacking with a Tetsubo could be a pretty devastating combo...
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Can we please compare Level 5, or if you want a longer shot, level 10 builds.
Because Level 10 is a level that can be expected to be reached, and still be played.
Level 20 is a pure hypothetical comparison, with my experience, no relevance to anything whatsoever, as even if you reach it (which about 95% of all campaigns simply dont), its mostly for one or two fights before the campaign ends then.
Level 10 is what you can aspire to, and expect to get some mileage out.
But a build needs to have come together at level 5, and feel like you are playing yor build, and not a proto-caterpillar that will someday hatch into your prefered build.
Level 20 theoretical aircastle calculations have no informational value about how a build will actually perform in play!
Basically this. I'll run the numbers when I get home, but I'd expect at this level the dual-wielding bard isn't PHENOMENAL, but is pretty darn feasible, while still being able to do bard stuff. Also, he could probably be a pretty decent switch hitter by that level. I'm still assuming Arcane Duelist, of course.
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Bard is my favorite class, and it is my opinion that if you play a bard you should never miss out on the following:
- Bard spells
- Bardic performance
- Versatile Performance
Missing the above is missing the boat on the purpose of that class. Bard spells are some of the best in the game. Versatile Performance (even with just a two level dip) makes you the ultimate king of skills. And if you show up at the table unable to inspire courage, you'll be looked at as a second class citizen (lower than the lowest tier of significance, or whatever the DPR kids call it these days...)
If you want to TWFight, make something that TWFight as its main goal in life. I've played bards that have never swung a weapon once.
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I've played bards that have never swung a weapon once.
I've seen that plenty of times, though they still held a weapon...So they could attach the Banner of Ancient Kings to it.
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I've played bards that have never swung a weapon once.I've seen that plenty of times, though they still held a weapon...So they could attach the Banner of Ancient Kings to it.
I have as well, and it annoys me every single time I see it. Yes, the bard is great at buffing allies and the bard spell list is good. That doesn't mean that there aren't times where you would be doing more good by making an attack yourself than just sitting there maintaining your performance and doing nothing else.
Can we please compare Level 5, or if you want a longer shot, level 10 builds.
Because Level 10 is a level that can be expected to be reached, and still be played.
Level 20 is a pure hypothetical comparison, with my experience, no relevance to anything whatsoever, as even if you reach it (which about 95% of all campaigns simply dont), its mostly for one or two fights before the campaign ends then.
Level 10 is what you can aspire to, and expect to get some mileage out.
But a build needs to have come together at level 5, and feel like you are playing yor build, and not a proto-caterpillar that will someday hatch into your prefered build.
Level 20 theoretical aircastle calculations have no informational value about how a build will actually perform in play!
Alright, let's do a level 10 build, 2 traits, average hit dice, on-the-nose WBL, and 20-point buy.
SMASH MCSMASHERTON
Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 10
Strength 18 + 2 = 20 [22]
Dexterity 12 [14]
Constitution 14 + 2 = 16 [18]
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 12
Charisma 7
Traits: Armor Expert, Reactionary
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Critical (Nodachi), Endurance, Diehard, Raging Vitality
Rage Powers: Superstition, Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem, Witch Hunter
FCB: Racial (Superstition)
Initiative +4
HP 100 base (~130 with Rage)
AC 21 (Remains the same during Rage)
DR 5/-, DR 10/Nonlethal; Resistance 3/Fire
Rage (26 Rounds)
Skills: Perception (MAX), Survival (MAX), Sense Motive (MAX)
Saving Throws: Fortitude 13 (16 while Raging, 23 versus Spells/Supernatural Abilities), Reflex 7 (14 versus Spells/Supernatural Abilities), Will 6 (8 while Raging, 13 versus Spells/Supernatural Abilities)
Gear: +2 Furious Nodachi (18,360 Gold), +1 Mithril Breastplate (5,350 Gold), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 Gold), Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16,000), Boots of Speed (12,000 Gold), Quick Runner's Shirt (1,000 Gold) Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 Gold), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000 Gold), Rations, Bags, etc. (~200 Gold)
Without Rage or Haste or Power Attack: +2 Furious Nodachi +18/13 (1D10+11, 15-20/X2)
Without Rage or Haste: +2 Furious Nodachi +15/10 (1D10+20, 15-20/X2)
Without Rage: +2 Furious Nodachi +16/16/11 (1D10+20, 15-20/X2)
Without Haste or Power Attack: +2 Furious Nodachi +22/17 (1D10+16, 15-20/X2)
Without Power Attack: +2 Furious Nodachi +23/23/18 (1D10+16, 15-20/X2)
Without Haste: +2 Furious Nodachi +19/14 (1D10+25, 15-20/X2)
With Everything: +2 Furious Nodachi +20/20/15 (1D10+25, 15-20/X2) (Bonuses to hit become +22/22/17 with a Pouncing Charge)
Assuming a Good Defense creature (AC = 15 + CR), an equal CR creature will have ~AC 25. The Barbarian will have a 75% chance to hit them on their first attack as well as Haste attack, and a ~50% chance on their second attack, increasing further with a Pouncing Charge. Each attack does, on average, 30 damage, resulting in approximately 90 DPR. Unless a creature possesses DR/- or Alignment DR, it will be bypassed.
Of course, most creatures will have 20+ Constitution, and D10 (or D12) Hit Dice, resulting in over 125 HP, meaning he can't one-shot them, but a Barbarian doesn't get truly ridiculous until 12th level, when Dazing Assault and CAGM come online, as well as Greater Rage (more Strength and Constitution) and his third iterative.
**EDIT** Slight math corrections, and added statblock.
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I never swung a weapon because i never ran out of spells or bardic things or firing wands that require a standard action.
That's cool. I was specifically thinking of a time in PFS where the bard literally hid in the corridor outside of the room and did nothing but inspire courage from behind the corner. No spells, no wands, no attacks, not even giving the boss another target to attack. She did nothing at all except provide a small bonus to hit an damage to the people actually dealing with the encounter. That is what I hate.
Can we please compare Level 5, or if you want a longer shot, level 10 builds.
Because Level 10 is a level that can be expected to be reached, and still be played.
Level 20 is a pure hypothetical comparison, with my experience, no relevance to anything whatsoever, as even if you reach it (which about 95% of all campaigns simply dont), its mostly for one or two fights before the campaign ends then.
Level 10 is what you can aspire to, and expect to get some mileage out.
But a build needs to have come together at level 5, and feel like you are playing yor build, and not a proto-caterpillar that will someday hatch into your prefered build.
Level 20 theoretical aircastle calculations have no informational value about how a build will actually perform in play!
Alright, let's do a level 10 build, 2 traits, average hit dice, on-the-nose WBL, and 20-point buy.
SMASH MCSMASHERTON
Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 10
Strength 18 + 2 = 20 [22]
Dexterity 12 [14]
Constitution 14 + 2 = 16 [18]
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 12
Charisma 7Traits: Armor Expert, Reactionary
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Critical (Nodachi), Endurance, Diehard, Raging Vitality
Rage Powers: Superstition, Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem, Witch Hunter
FCB: Racial (Superstition)Initiative +4
HP 100 base (~130 with Rage)
AC 21 (Remains the same during Rage)
DR 5/-, DR 10/Nonlethal; Resistance 3/Fire
Rage (26 Rounds)Skills: Perception (MAX), Survival (MAX), Sense Motive (MAX)
Saving Throws: Fortitude 13 (16 while Raging, 23 versus Spells/Supernatural Abilities), Reflex 7 (14 versus Spells/Supernatural Abilities), Will 6 (8 while Raging, 13 versus Spells/Supernatural Abilities)
Gear: +2 Furious Nodachi (18,360 Gold), +1 Mithril Breastplate (5,350 Gold), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 Gold), Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16,000), Boots of Speed (12,000 Gold), Quick Runner's Shirt (1,000 Gold) Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 Gold), Amulet of Natural Armor...
This is a weird build for a Bard thread. ;)
That is a really weird build for a bard thread. For a second I thought he was just rolling a Skald, but no, full on barbarian. If it had even been a Bardbarian it would have been one thing. But no....
it's the first half of the comparison between a LV 10 Barb and a LV 10 Bard
If you really like the idea of TWF Bard then go for it. Otherwise a Strength based Two Handed Bard can deal out significant damage without any feat investment at the beginning. Latter on you can always add Power Attack or Arcane Strike if you want to stay competitive.
it's the first half of the comparison between a LV 10 Barb and a LV 10 Bard
To what end? To see which one TWFs better? The Barbarian does. Every time. lol
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I never swung a weapon because i never ran out of spells or bardic things or firing wands that require a standard action.That's cool. I was specifically thinking of a time in PFS where the bard literally hid in the corridor outside of the room and did nothing but inspire courage from behind the corner. No spells, no wands, no attacks, not even giving the boss another target to attack. She did nothing at all except provide a small bonus to hit an damage to the people actually dealing with the encounter. That is what I hate.
understood: you hate s$*@ty players
it's the first half of the comparison between a LV 10 Barb and a LV 10 BardTo what end? To see which one TWFs better? The Barbarian does. Every time. lol
To see how it's damage compares to a Damage class.
Can we please compare Level 5, or if you want a longer shot, level 10 builds.
Because Level 10 is a level that can be expected to be reached, and still be played.
Level 20 is a pure hypothetical comparison, with my experience, no relevance to anything whatsoever, as even if you reach it (which about 95% of all campaigns simply dont), its mostly for one or two fights before the campaign ends then.
Level 10 is what you can aspire to, and expect to get some mileage out.
But a build needs to have come together at level 5, and feel like you are playing yor build, and not a proto-caterpillar that will someday hatch into your prefered build.
Level 20 theoretical aircastle calculations have no informational value about how a build will actually perform in play!
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Alright. 10th level Bard:
Race: Half-Elf (I like the free Exotic Weapon Proficiency :P)
Stats: 20 point buy(It's the default. If you don't care about dump stats, you can do basically the same thing with 15 and dump Wis like most bards do when you dump stats.)
Str. 10, Dex. 22, Con. 14, Int. 10, Wis. 10, Cha. 14 (racial stat bump goes to Dex., level bumps go to Dex, plus the belt)
Archetype: Arcane Duelist
Feats:
1) Weapon Finesse
1b) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Estoc
1b) Arcane Strike
2b) Combat Casting
3) Two-Weapon Fighting
5) Piranha Strike
6b) Disruptive
7) Lingering Performance
9) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10b) Spellbreaker
10b) Medium Armor Proficiency
WBL at 10th is 62k, so:
Effortless Lace x2 (5k)
+1 Agile Estoc (8k)
+1 Agile Estoc (4k) [Arcane Bond]
Belt of Dexterity +2 (4k)
Now, that's all I really NEED for my weapons/combat stuff. If I wanted to really get some added benefit, I'd consider throwing Keen on the Weapons, or maybe upgrading my belt to a +4 dex, but I still want money for my armor/other defensive items, so I'll cut it there.
So, my BAB is +7/+2, or +5/+5/+0/+0 when I'm full attacking. Under normal circumstances (+6 Dex, +1 Weapon, +2 Inspire Courage, +2 Heroism) you're sitting at +16/+16/+11/+11. That's not too bad. It isn't GREAT, but it isn't bad. On hit, you're dealing a base damage of 2d4+12 (+6 Dex, +1 Weapon, +2 IC, +3 Arcane Strike). Again, not the WORST damage. I've seen much lower, believe it or not.
So let's throw haste in the mix, because you can cast haste and Inspire Courage with one round of prep buffing. If I wanted to, I could use one of my very sparing 4th level spells for Greater Invisibility, but there are some better utilitarian options, so I'll skip that.
A full round of hasted attacks is a +17/+17/+17/+12/+12. DPR against a CR 10 foe with an expected AC of 24 (130 HP)is, without piranha strike, ~61.815 DPR on a full attack.
Piranha Strike (-2 atk/+4/+2 dmg) makes it: ~64.925 DPR on a full attack.
Is this ideal? Absolutely not. But remember a few things:
1) I never said this was optimal
2) While not Competitive DPR, it's still reasonable for a 10th level character. If I had this guy in my group, I wouldn't be complaining (though, to be fair, you should see the people with whom I play).
3) This doesn't include the added DPR from giving allies Haste/Inspire Courage. I also intentionally low-balled the damage dealing items he could have, and didn't account for things like flanking in combat, because I figured he would also be shoring up his defenses to survive in melee, increase his saving throws, and buy other party utility items.
Like I said, two-weapon fighting isn't perfect. I'd probably much prefer an Archer bard to this. However, when it works, it does work, and you don't have to sacrifice much in the way of my standard utility to do it (I have slightly fewer skills than a non-combat oriented bard). I'm not the GOD OF SKILLS or LORD OF THE FACE, but I can still do both pretty darn well when needed, and still have access to all my spells.