I am going to be running Hell's Rebels and I know that the church of Zon Kuthon plays a somewhat minor role in the AP.
I don't like Zon Kuthon as a deity and want to replace him and his church with some other lawful evil power. When I say replace, I mean replace entirely in my version of Golarion. I am fine with using gods from other franchises or 3pps entirely.
When I think of Nidal reaching out to a god to protect them, I don't imagine them saying "Well heck, I guess Pinhead is as good as anybody..." I think of them reaching out to a god who protects them for real... but causes them to become insular, xenophobic, and paranoid. Some gods I am considering:
Bane, Forgotten Realms.
Hextor, Greyhawk.
Kamus, Purple Duck Games.
Right now, I am really leaning towards Kamus. Can you guys give me any other gods to consider? Even other minor pathfinder gods I may not be thinking of. The god should be lawful evil, be able to ally with Asmodeus (without being a copy of him) and capable of having an intelligent undead as a high ranking leader in its church. Thanks!
Kriesha, Birthright (probably a better fit for Irrisen than Nidal, but...you know)
Tiamat (if played up as a ferocious protector of what she sees as "hers")
Zhakata (false god from Ravenloft, but he adds a lot of nifty weirdness and religious fixation, and the hope of a "Provider" aspect means people would have a reason to accept his patronage)
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A part of me is really curious as to why you don't like Zon Kuthon, and I will probably be able to steer you towards some decent choices with a little more understanding. Because, as it stands right now, Zon Kuthon is a god who protects his followers for real, but also causes them to become insular, xenophobic, and paranoid. Sure, his whole enlightenment through pain thing can be a bit of a turn-off for some, but he's still incredibly interesting in his own right.
I don't like the whole torture porn aspect of the god. I don't find a god that demands what he seems to demand of his followers to be a believable patron god who offers them something better than the alternative. Could he be a power that patronizes a small evil cult or cell for a very specific reason? To my mind yes. Could he be the patron of an entire country? To my mind no.
Given what has happened many times on Earth (inclding but not limited to the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and Khmer Rouge Cambodia), I see nothing unbelievable at all about Zon-Kuthon being patron of an entire nation.
I find it believable that an evil god would endorse torture and pain turned upon an other, as is the case in the examples you cited. I find Zon Kuthon unbelievable specifically because he focuses on torture upon his own worshippers. What do they gain from it? The enlightenments of the crap that's described in the Campaign Setting books? That empowers a nation? I'm dubious.
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As someone who dislikes Cayden Cailean AND Norgorber enough that they might as well not exist, let him have his distaste for Zon-Kuthon.
It's no biggie.
I have no new suggestions, but I'll just toss out that the thread is about "replace Zon-Kuthon for this gaming group," not "defend his role in the setting."
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Many real world religions (or even secular organizations) practice or have practiced mortification of the flesh in various forms. Some of those are self-induced and can be pretty horrific to "outsiders," but a source of pride and "belonging" to the participants ("I'm strong enough to endure this and become accepted; anyone who cannot endure is weak; others that can endure are my brothers/sisters").
You might be able to use Achaekek for that purpose. Relocate the center of his faith to Nidal instead of Mediogalti Island and make Nidal more about murderous ambition rather than torture. General Susumu from the Tian Xia pantheon might also work, but that would take a bit more story reworking to explain why he has a nation so far from his usual center of worship.
Many real world religions (or even secular organizations) practice or have practiced mortification of the flesh in various forms. Some of those are self-induced and can be pretty horrific to "outsiders," but a source of pride and "belonging" to the participants ("I'm strong enough to endure this and become accepted; anyone who cannot endure is weak; others that can endure are my brothers/sisters").
That is a good point. I have used that kind of imagery in games and applied it to worshippers of both good and evil gods. However, with gods like Ilmater from Forgotten Realms, I see self-mortification as a means to a higher end. With Zon Kuthon everything I've read is that it simply is the end.
You might be able to use Achaekek for that purpose. Relocate the center of his faith to Nidal instead of Mediogalti Island and make Nidal more about murderous ambition rather than torture. General Susumu from the Tian Xia pantheon might also work, but that would take a bit more story reworking to explain why he has a nation so far from his usual center of worship.
Achaekek is a good idea but in my game, he is already very strongly established in Mediogalti. I will look into General Susumu. If he fits the bill I may just rename him as a different aspect of the same power. We've never breached Tian Xia in my games so far.
Amusingly enough, you could also go with Asmodeus, and play up House Thrune's ties/alliance with Nidal.
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When I think of Nidal reaching out to a god to protect them, I don't imagine them saying "Well heck, I guess Pinhead is as good as anybody..." I think of them reaching out to a god who protects them for real... but causes them to become insular, xenophobic, and paranoid.
Ok, count me as one more advocate for the Midnight Lord.
When the Nidal tribes cried out for succor, what they were offered was not simply pain, but the strength to survive pain. In thinking about why anyone would worship a god of pain, it helps to remember those cultures and ideologies that see life in terms of struggle. Zon-Kuthon promises pain, but then so does existence itself. What Zon-Kuthon brings to the party is the wisdom (mind-blasting as it may be) to master pain and to use pain.
Nidal's relationship with Cheliax also makes their relationship with Z-K important in terms of his role as the god of envy. The Umbral Court hides and dreams of the day when Queen Abrogail is in a collar and on her knees. They covet fiercely and those who covet make great antagonists. Those who covet and think themselves strong-willed survivors make great long-term antagonists.
Z-K gets you to insular (we do not share our strength with others), xenophobic (the outsider will cheat you because they have things you don't - still with the envy), and paranoid (None can know our wants, for exploiting want is the key to True Pain).
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I'd avoid Hextor - He was most interesting as a foil to his half-brother Heironious.
On the other hand, you could replace that with keeping ZK's role as brother to Shelyn.
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Could use Droskar - it worked for the Duergar.
Pain is Pleasure and Pleasure is Pain
I'm still gonna chime in for Zhakata... it's weird, it's self-contained, it pruports to have a dualistic aspect to offer hope (but never deliver)...
FWIW, I also love the idea of Zhakata. The aspect of the Provider gives a reason for why the faithful would endure such hardship.
Especially considering what makes you dubious about Zon Kuthon, you get a Lawful-Evil deity (Well, in the end he turned out to be something very different, masquerading as a deity...but you don't need to keep that particular drawing back of the curtain!) with a built-in reason for depredation!
The Shadow Fey (Kobold Press) are pretty cool, their Queen of Air and Darkness is a pretty charmingly dangerous villain as well.
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Many real world religions (or even secular organizations) practice or have practiced mortification of the flesh in various forms. Some of those are self-induced and can be pretty horrific to "outsiders," but a source of pride and "belonging" to the participants ("I'm strong enough to endure this and become accepted; anyone who cannot endure is weak; others that can endure are my brothers/sisters").
You could even think of it as being like a fraternity hazing turned up to 1111.
oh, I got a good one: Set.
Nothing better than Egyptian themed vampires and wizards.
How about Zon-Kuthon could actually be a cover identity for Set?
Alazhra might be another good choice.
That deity name and the iconic Oracle's name (Alazhra and Alahazra) keep tripping me up, because they are so similar . . . Wonder how many institutions on Golarion mess that up . . . .