I was under the impression that many potions could be made into oils and many oils can be made into potions. However, it was recently pointed out to me that this may not be the case after all.
Can someone who is crafting a potion choose for it to be in potion form or oil form? Or is it generally assumed that it MUST be the form listed in the book/module?
For example, can barkskin be a potion or an oil, or does it have to be a potion (like it is listed in many books)?
I could be wrong but it seems Potions are meant for creatures and oils are for objects.
"A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects. The price of a potion is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 50 gp. If the potion has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create. Table: Potions gives sample prices for potions created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster brewing the potion.
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target."
I believe the convention is that oils are for objects, which cannot swallow, otherwise it is made as potion. So you have oil of magic weapon, but potion of cure light wounds.
I don't know of anything that requires this to be the case, and I don't think there is a practical difference between the two.
The practical difference is that I can apply an oil to someone else as my own action. For example, if I have an oil of barkskin, I can come up behind you (while you're frontlining in melee) as a move action, apply the oil, and you can still full attack next round.
If it turns out that the monster you're facing has DR 100/not-me, this may be a better use of my action than trying ineffectively to poke at it.
Your example is valid Orfamay, and a situation I hadn't thought of.
Which is was it would be beneficial to make things as oils instead of potions, as I could not think of a why it the world it would matter
But to that end, it seems not allowed as oil appears only to function on objects (which was what I thought anyways).
If it turns out that the monster you're facing has DR 100/not-me, this may be a better use of my action than trying ineffectively to poke at it.
Aid Another still works.
I'm trying to think of a spell that has a legal target of both creatures and objects but has different effects such that the oil/potion would matter, but I'm coming up empty.
Yeah, but unless I'm missing something, it tells you that oils target objects.
Breath of life. It can be cast on a recently deceased creature, which is an object, or on a living creature.
Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.
Yeah i missed that. So in the same section we have...
"The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target."
Plus what you just quoted. Strange.
Breath of life. It can be cast on a recently deceased creature, which is an object, or on a living creature.
Target: creature touched
Odd, because as you say, corpses are objects. This might be a case where an oil could work (because I don't think you can do the "feed an unconscious creature a potion" thing to a "creature that has died within one round").
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If I'm not mistaken, I think 3.5 had an assumption that potions were for creatures and oils were for objects, and then Pathfinder decided to unify them, purging that distinction from the text with their usual level of thoroughness.
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The practical difference is that I can apply an oil to someone else as my own action. For example, if I have an oil of barkskin, I can come up behind you (while you're frontlining in melee) as a move action, apply the oil, and you can still full attack next round.
If it turns out that the monster you're facing has DR 100/not-me, this may be a better use of my action than trying ineffectively to poke at it.
While it seems this would be true, it is actually not the case.
There aren't rules to smear an oil on a friend anymore than there are rules to pour a potion down a friend's throat. The exception is for unconscious creatures, in which case it requires exactly the same action whether it is a potion or an oil.
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For external use only. Do not apply to sensitive areas. If symptoms persist for more than 4 rounds, contact your cleric.
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The practical difference is that I can apply an oil to someone else as my own action. For example, if I have an oil of barkskin, I can come up behind you (while you're frontlining in melee) as a move action, apply the oil, and you can still full attack next round.
If it turns out that the monster you're facing has DR 100/not-me, this may be a better use of my action than trying ineffectively to poke at it.
While it seems this would be true, it is actually not the case.
There aren't rules to smear an oil on a friend anymore than there are rules to pour a potion down a friend's throat. The exception is for unconscious creatures, in which case it requires exactly the same action whether it is a potion or an oil.
using an oil is a standard action.
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One important difference that I've noted is that with potions, the imbiber is treated as both the caster and the target. With oils, the applier is treated as the caster, but the receiver is treated as the target.
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Breath of life. It can be cast on a recently deceased creature, which is an object, or on a living creature.Target: creature touched
Odd, because as you say, corpses are objects. This might be a case where an oil could work (because I don't think you can do the "feed an unconscious creature a potion" thing to a "creature that has died within one round").
Being a dead creature means you become an object, but that doesn't mean you stop being a creature.
Q: When is a door not a door?
A: When it's a jar.
(ajar)
If I kill a horse, it's now a dead horse. And it's an object. But it doesn't stop being a horse.
Fred: Hey, Bob, did you kill my horse?
Bob: I don't see a horse.
Fred: It's right there, lying dead at your feet, it's blood dripping from your axe.
Bob: What? This thing on the ground? That's not a horse.
Fred: Of course it's a horse! It's my horse!
Bob: Nope. It's just a thing. An object. Not a creature at all.
Fred: It's my dead horse!
Bob: Nope. Horses are creatures. This isn't a creature here, it's an object. So it can't be a horse.
Fred? Are you sure it's not a horse? It has a long face, a horsey tail, hooves, a mane. Heck, it's even wearing a saddle and a bit and bridle.
Bob: Well, yeah, but it's an object, not a creature, so it's definitely not a horse.
Fred. Oh. OK. Well, I guess I'll be walking home.
Bob: Yeah, sucks dude. Too bad your horse disappeared.
Fred. Yeah. Hey, before I go, can I take my saddle and saddlebags off of that bloody object at your feet?
Bob: Are you sure those are yours?
Fred: Yes, I am. See? They have my initials on them, even though I don't know how they got off of my horse and onto that horse-shaped object. But I'd sure like to take them with me when I walk home.
Bob: Well, sure, since they're yours.
Fred: Thanks. Besides, you never know, maybe I'll find my horse on the way so I can saddle him up and ride him home.
Bob. Yeah, good luck with that...
There aren't rules to smear an oil on a friend anymore than there are rules to pour a potion down a friend's throat. The exception is for unconscious creatures, in which case it requires exactly the same action whether it is a potion or an oil.using an oil is a standard action.
That is true for using it on yourself or something in your possession. It obviously isn't true all the time, as it specifically says applying an oil to an unconscious person is a full round action.
I suppose one could argue that it is a standard action to apply an oil to a friend, unless they are unconscious, in which case it takes longer, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. A better assumption is that applying an oil to another person (and presumably also any object attending by another person) is not a standard action. Reasonably one could go with a full round action for any of that, or reasonably one could make it take even longer (a corpse has got to be easier to apply an oil to than someone who is fighting a nasty beast) but in any event it seems to me to be very difficult to justify a standard action.
How do you rub oil into someone that is engaged in combat. That is like the coach wiping sweat from the boxer's head and handing him a drink mid bout.
2: based on effect, an internal function like cure light wounds, a potion. An external function, like Mage armor, an oil. This would require the most individual attention.
Spread the oil over the wound, like a medicinal salve. That would make a reasonable external application of CLW.
Barkskin would probably make more sense as an oil, spread it like sunscreen. Yet we know this is available as a potion.
I don't think based on effect will work.
I hadn't realized you weren't able to just choose based on what you wanted. I was going to buy an Oil of Cure Moderate Wounds for one of my characters. It isn't clearly spelled out, but I would think that should allow a familiar to apply it. I could see disagreement about the ability to pour a potion down someone's throat, but spreading a salve should still work.
It isn't like there aren't already examples of ointments that can cure wounds.
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Your example is valid Orfamay, and a situation I hadn't thought of.
Which is was it would be beneficial to make things as oils instead of potions, as I could not think of a why it the world it would matter
But to that end, it seems not allowed as oil appears only to function on objects (which was what I thought anyways).
There is the Accelerated Drinker trait, I don't think that there is the "accelerated smeared" trait :-) so for some character having a item as a potion instead of a oil is useful.
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That is true for using it on yourself or something in your possession. It obviously isn't true all the time, as it specifically says applying an oil to an unconscious person is a full round action.
There aren't rules to smear an oil on a friend anymore than there are rules to pour a potion down a friend's throat. The exception is for unconscious creatures, in which case it requires exactly the same action whether it is a potion or an oil.using an oil is a standard action.
When something makes a blanket statement of "Doing X takes Y action," and a later statement says "Doing X in this specific circumstance takes Z action," then that specific circumstance is a specific exception to the general rule stated earlier. That exception does cause the original rule to also not apply in other, unspecified circumstances. It's just a single, self-contained exception.
That's how language works.
Granted, it's theoretically possible that the author meant something other than what they plainly wrote, but even in Pathfinder products that doesn't happen frequently enough to warrant assuming it to be the case. If there were some other rule elsewhere suggesting that a standard action is not the default to apply an oil, then we could debate whether the author here really meant what they said. But without something of that caliber, there's no reasonable cause to infer that "using an oil is a standard action" is anything less than the universal, always-unless-otherwise-specified, umbrella rule that it's very plainly and obviously written as.
I would say Potions and Oils, ext. are made by the Brew Potions Feat.
Oils could be made with the Craft Wonderous Items Feat, but could not make Potions.
It isn't like there aren't already examples of ointments that can cure wounds.
If the Creative narrative go's with the game and the GM allows it, all the better. The CRB is ment to be a guide, not the end all/be all.
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Yaknow I don't think I've ever seen the rules on OIls in general.
I'm sorta assuming you can't like throw a oil of fireball (or i suppose shocking grasp) as a weapon though.
Is there a good area that covers Oils in books? So far it sorta sounds spread out and a lot of it is implied via already existing items.
The rules for oils are lumped in with potions, with the only specified difference between the two being that oils are applied externally via smearing instead of being ingested. Literally every other difference anyone has come up with between the two is inferred, not stated.
Heck, oils aren't even mentioned in the Magic Item Creation rules.
When something makes a blanket statement of "Doing X takes Y action," and a later statement says "Doing X in this specific circumstance takes Z action," then that specific circumstance is a specific exception to the general rule stated earlier. That exception does cause the original rule to also not apply in other, unspecified circumstances. It's just a single, self-contained exception.
That's how language works.
Often this is the case, but context matters. Drinking a potion is something that obviously you can only do for yourself. 'Smearing' is less clear, but when the paragraphs that describe the actions consistently make it clear that the actions and restrictions are the same whether it is a potion or an oil, then in context it is clear that 'smearing' an oil is an action used on yourself (in this case you and your equipment) not on an ally.
Once again, the exception wouldn't make any sense if oils could regularly be smeared on an ally, and in a permissive system, unless there is some rule that you can smear an oil on an ally and what type of action it takes you can't do it. Equally, you can't smear an oil on an enemy any more than you can pour a potion down an enemies throat.
I remember oils being proposed as a way to get around the most mechanically significant disadvantage of this:
Vow of Fasting: The monk eats nothing but rice (or a similar bland, staple food) and drinks nothing but water. On certain days (usually once per month or on a religious holiday), he may eat a small portion of other simple, bland food to maintain proper nutrition. The monk cannot use tobacco, drugs, potions, alchemical items requiring eating or drinking, or any other thing that could be considered a food or beverage. A monk with this vow increases his ki pool by 1 ki point for every 6 monk levels (minimum +1).
Do potions taste nice? If they're like bitter medicines, I'd rather switch to oils, despite the extra laundry required.
One mistake (I consider it a mistake) I've seen here and on other threads is to allow Create Wondrous Items (CWI) to be used to "brew" various oils, elixirs, philtres, drafts, etc., using just about any spell (even Personal spells). Some GM's make this mistake.
It completely invalidates the Brew Potion feat.
Why take two feats, CWI and Brew Potion, when I can just change the name and create a Philtre of Cure Light Wounds or an Oil of Invisibility or an Elixir of Mirror Image or a Draft of Wish. Nobody would ever need to take Brew Potion, especially since that is limited to 3rd level (and CWI is not) and since that can't be used on Personal spells (but CWI can).
I personally believe that the smart thing to do, to preserve game balance, is leave Brew Potion alone. Don't turn potions into oils unless it's necessary - if a particular spell seems to require rubbing it on a person or object and seems inappropriate to require drinking it, then make it an oil and craft it using Brew Potion. But if it can be drunk like a potion, then make it a potion. And don't use CWI for any of it.
...why are you bringing up CWI and elixirs/philters in a discussion of the potion/oil rules? What's that got to do with the topic?
I was not the first in this thread.
I was responding to this:
I would say Potions and Oils, ext. are made by the Brew Potions Feat.
Oils could be made with the Craft Wonderous Items Feat, but could not make Potions.
But not only to that poster, but to the idea in general that it's OK to craft potion-ish wondrous items.
I was trying to give useful advice on that front, as well as on the potion vs. oil question.
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Huh. Guess I overlooked that post. I thought maybe you were thinking that "oil" was another generic term that's not inherently tied to an item type, much like "elixir", and didn't realize that it's already subject to all the same rules and restrictions as potions.
Carry on then.
The rules for oils are lumped in with potions, with the only specified difference between the two being that oils are applied externally via smearing instead of being ingested.
There are mechanical differences beyond what you describe. For example, unlike potions, the person using an oil is considered the caster, but not the target. With potions the drinker is both the caster and the target.
The rules for oils are lumped in with potions, with the only specified difference between the two being that oils are applied externally via smearing instead of being ingested.There are mechanical differences beyond what you describe. For example, unlike potions, the person using an oil is considered the caster, but not the target. With potions the drinker is both the caster and the target.
I think its the same if you're pouring a potion down someone's mouth for example.
What difference would it make?
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...why are you bringing up CWI and elixirs/philters in a discussion of the potion/oil rules? What's that got to do with the topic?I was not the first in this thread.
I was responding to this:
I would say Potions and Oils, ext. are made by the Brew Potions Feat.
Oils could be made with the Craft Wonderous Items Feat, but could not make Potions.But not only to that poster, but to the idea in general that it's OK to craft potion-ish wondrous items.
I was trying to give useful advice on that front, as well as on the potion vs. oil question.
Various Elixirs and Salves/Unguents in the Wondrous Items section pretty much kick that idea in the can.
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*snip*... the person using an oil is considered the caster, but not the target. With potions the drinker is both the caster and the target.I think its the same if you're pouring a potion down someone's mouth for example.
What difference would it make?
There are a couple of fringe cases. A potion of charm person is useless unless the drinker has a really poor self-esteem. But an oil of charm person...
"If you just hold still and let me rub this lotion on you, we can be buddies."Oil of sleep and oil of touch of idiocy might be useful in some specialized situations, but potions of those spells would work just as well.
Various Elixirs and Salves/Unguents in the Wondrous Items section pretty much kick that idea in the can.
There aren't that many elixirs and philters, and they don't directly reproduce Core spell effects. They fill a different niche. An elixir of hiding is useful in some situations when a potion of invisibility might be too expensive, since the elixir lasts for an hour and does not break when the drinker attacks.
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Is there any time you can think of where "when you cast" is important? You count as the caster, so if you had a passive that did something when you cast a spell (regain this when you cast a spell of this type, when you cast a spell of x school it lasts twice as long...) or a triggered effect for "when I cast a spell do this" with contingency or something. A potion uses you as the caster, so there could be times when that matters. Rarely. If at all.
It matters a lot of you have spell resistance. If you're unconscious, your friends can pull your potion of cure light and pour it down your throat. You're casting on yourself, so SR does not apply. But rubbing an oil of the same spell would very likely fail. (Caster level 1 potion...)
...why are you bringing up CWI and elixirs/philters in a discussion of the potion/oil rules? What's that got to do with the topic?I was not the first in this thread.
I was responding to this:
I would say Potions and Oils, ext. are made by the Brew Potions Feat.
Oils could be made with the Craft Wonderous Items Feat, but could not make Potions.But not only to that poster, but to the idea in general that it's OK to craft potion-ish wondrous items.
I was trying to give useful advice on that front, as well as on the potion vs. oil question.
Various Elixirs and Salves/Unguents in the Wondrous Items section pretty much kick that idea in the can.
I'm well aware those exist. That's why I referenced those kinds of items in my post. I think the developers dropped the ball a little when they made that stuff, but I'm perfectly fine with letting my crafters use DWI to make the elixiirs (et al.) that are actually in the book, but when they come up to me with the idea of making an elixir of [insert random spell] with no precedent for it in the book, I say "Sure, but you'll make that elixir with Brew Potions".
Otherwise, everyone who doesn't get Brew Potion for free will just grab CWI at third level and make all the elixirs they want - making Brew Potion a dead feat.
Some feats should die. The crappy feats, tax-feats, feats that only exist as a speed bump to getting better feats in the chain.
Crafting feats are not on this list. They're good. Often too good. I doubt that it's a good idea to make CWI even more awesome and in the process eliminate Brew Potions by rolling it into CWI for free. Bad idea.
And bad devs for setting any precedent for it in the first place. Although I think the initial precedent came from 1st and/or 2nd edition when there were no crafting feats and just got slipped on into 3rd edition where they didn't belong - so maybe they have an excuse, if a poor one.
There was a recent discussion on the subject of Potions of Personal spells where it was suggested that they were perfectly legal as long as you made them into elixirs. In terms of feat balance, probably not a good idea.
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For example, can barkskin be a potion or an oil, or does it have to be a potion (like it is listed in many books)?
I've always read the rules to say that all potions are potions and all oils are potions that can't be potions and must be oils. Spells not in the core would be a potion or an oil at GM discretion but not both.
So what would you do, James, if one source says a given spell is an oil and another says its a potion?
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I'm well aware those exist. That's why I referenced those kinds of items in my post. I think the developers dropped the ball a little when they made that stuff, but I'm perfectly fine with letting my crafters use DWI to make the elixiirs (et al.) that are actually in the book, but when they come up to me with the idea of making an elixir of [insert random spell] with no precedent for it in the book, I say "Sure, but you'll make that elixir with Brew Potions".
I'm actually inclined to house-rule that you make all elixirs with Brew Potion, including the non-spell effects currently allowed through CWI.
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So what would you do, James, if one source says a given spell is an oil and another says its a potion?
I'm unaware of that being true. But I would ignore any adventure, module, NPC book, Bestiary, or other "non-rule" source.
I'd also ignore tables like Ultimate Equipment.
All of these sources are frequent offenders in terms of errors and otherwise blatantly false things and Paizo has said as such on numerous occasions.