Hello all,
I am trying to decide which of the wondrous item types could be made with the master craftsman feat and craft alchemist.
there could be an argument made for...
Elixirs
Salves
Dusts
Unguents
Oils
Incenses
Teas
Salts
Polishes
Syrups
Ointments
Glues
Pigments
Philters
Also what about he various alembics and alchemical equipment items, could they be made with craft alchemy or would I need craft glassblowing?
Are there any I have missed off or any up you think shouldn't be on this list? Also if there is already an explanation for this or something I have missed please point me in the right direction...
Thanks
All of them.
If it's a wondrous item you can use ranks in craft(alchemy) as your caster level and as the skill you use to craft it.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Okay, but I can't use craft alchemy to make a circlet of persuasion surely? Doesn't the skill have to relate to the item or have I totally inferred that incorrectly.
This is actually for me as a player so I would like to understand the rules as they are. Can you expand on your response.
Thanks
I making a Witcher style character and wish to be able to make minor items using alchemy. The rest all makes sense.
That seems like a safe list for alchemy, but it's really up to GM interpretation of what an appropriate skill is for the item. I could see a Circlet of Persuasion resulting from treating a circlet with the right alchemical process, in much the same way that a caster can use Spellcraft instead of Craft(Jewelry) to make the same item. Craft(Alchemy) is kind of a weird example, since alchemy can be used to justify all sorts of things. It might be tough to justify a Circlet of Persuasion using Craft(bookbinding), though.
Sure you can create a circlet of persuasion if you want to. You can create items with profession(hairdresser) if you want. It changes the skill you use to create the item with to your chosen skill.
You can limit it thematically if you want, or your GM might choose to, but you don't have to.
The feat does not change how you make the base item. It allows you to enchant an item. You cannot use Spellcraft to do the enchanting, but rather your skill at the specific craft chosen for the feat.
A wizard with no crafting skill, but high spellcraft skill, can make any magic item. It is not about crafting an item, but enchanting it.
/cevah
Some really interesting comments. After the profession (hairdresser) comment I decided not to take it, because I didn't want to see the light die in my GMs eyes.
I'm not sure from reading the feat that you only enchant an already existing item. The wording all the way through describes crafting. It certainly seems to me that the wording of the feat is to allow exceptional smiths etc to create weapons and clothing that are so good they are magic.
Anyway, my question is answered.
"Enchanting an Item" was the name in 2nd edition.
"Crafting an Item" is the name in 3.X & PF for both mundane and magic items.
I find it easier to use the older term to distinguish what is happening.
/cevah
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You have stumbled on one of the great diatribes.
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
One side think that Master Craftsman make any craft or profession skill an applicable skill, regardless of what you are making, to the point of saying that if you have taken Craft (baskets) you can use it to enchant a sword (Yes, that example was actually made).
The other side think that you can use the skill if it is appropriate (and yes, I am on that side). So craft (Alchemy) would produce elixirs, powders, unguents and so on, but not alchemical items made of glass, like magical retorts.
Ask your GM what interpretation he prefer.
@Diego Rossi: So how does a wizard with no skill in crafting (i.e. 0 ranks in any Craft<X>) make magic items? Spellcraft does not give such skill. And if a wizard without any skill can do it, why cannot someone who has some skill also do it?
I agree that it is thematic, and flavorful, but it is not rules.
/cevah
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@Diego Rossi: So how does a wizard with no skill in crafting (i.e. 0 ranks in any Craft<X>) make magic items? Spellcraft does not give such skill. And if a wizard without any skill can do it, why cannot someone who has some skill also do it?
I agree that it is thematic, and flavorful, but it is not rules.
/cevah
It work exactly as the rule say. You can you can use your magical ability (spellcraft) or your expertise in the appropriate skill in making a magic item. You can't use your expertise in a unrelated skill.
It is trivial to justify using 'craft alchemy' to infuse any mundane item with magical properties by soaking it in a magical alchemical elixir to create a permanent magical effect.
It is an appropriate skill, as required by the rules? No, it is a simple justification to use an inappropriate skill.
Look the rules, they list the appropriate skill for anything that isn't a wondrous item:
Creating Magic Weapons
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
...
Creating Rings
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (jewelry).
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Creating Rods
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Craft (weapons).
...
Creating Scrolls
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (calligraphy), or Profession (scribe).
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Creating Staves
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter).
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Creating Wands
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter).
For wondrous items they say:
Creating Wondrous Items
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Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
a the applicable skill or skills change with each item.
@Diego Rossi: OK. Found rules support for your view.
PRD
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.
This forces the choice on you. Looking at the enchantable items, we have:
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
Craft(Armor) can only be used to make armor.
Craft(Bows) can only make bows and arrows.Craft(Weapons) can make any weapon other than bows and arrows.
Any Craft or Profession might be used to make a wondrous item, but is a GM call.
Back to the OP: PRD lists for Alchemy:
Acid
Alchemist's fire, smokestick, or tindertwig
Antitoxin, sunrod, tanglefoot bag, or thunderstone
SRD lists these under Alchemical Creations:
This page includes various chemicals, herbs, salves, balms, oils, and other substances which require special preparation before use (such as use of a Craft (alchemy) skill check.)
Alchemical Reagents
Oils and Flammables
Tools, Devices and Kits
Misc. Substances
Balms, Medicines and Tonics
Hunting Aids
Herbs and Plants
Special Equipment
So, if a wondrous item can be described as one of these, then it can be done.
/cevah
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Your link is broken, so I don't know what you are citing, but the SRD isn't the PRD.
If you look Ultimate Equipment you find this:
"After that, things get more exotic. Alchemical remedies offer more than just antitoxins—who wants to go adventuring without troll oil or vermin repellent? Alchemical tools range from glues and solvents to defoliants, smoke pellets, and glowing ink. Alchemical weapons include bottled lightning, fireworks, grenades, and more."
The four categories of items under that text (Alchemical remedies, Alchemical tools, Alchemical weapons and Poison) list items that can be made with Craft (alchemy).
There is no example of tools used to make alchemical items (like retorts, alembics, and so on) and a specific list of alchemical equipment.
With craft alchemy you can enchant items that are similar, so elixirs, pills, balms and so on, but not other items.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Yep, this is one of those forum arguments that pops up every now and again. Personally, I think RAI is that you need to use a Craft skill appropriate to the specific object you're making - the flavor on Master Craftsman makes it seem like you are so good a smith or basketweaver or whatever that you can enchant things as you make them.
That having been said, balance-wise you pay a high price to be able to craft magic items without spellcasting. If the player can loosely justify how they are using Craft(stonemasonry) to make a belt I'd just go with it. Let the player do their thing, they paid enough for it.
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The alchemist ability is SU, sure, but they aren't spellcasters.
Alchemist: Is an alchemist a spellcaster for the purpose of crafting magic items other than potions?
As written, no, alchemists are not spellcasters, and therefore can't select feats such as Craft Wondrous Item.
The design team is aware that this creates some thematic problems with the idea of an alchemist creating golems and so on, and plan to examine this in the future.
posted March 2013
And the skill Craft (alchemy) isn't magical at all.
The Craft (Alchemy) isn't, but the Alchemy class feature is. I think that's how people justify that, while the Alchemist isn't a Spellcaster, it is a Magic User (AD&D 2nd edition lingo here).
Personally, I think it's wonky that a Magus, the alpha omega gish, can create items but an Alchemist, whose whole point is creating things, can't.
That being said, GM Discression is a wonderful thing.
Your link is broken, so I don't know what you are citing, but the SRD isn't the PRD.
If you look Ultimate Equipment you find this:
"After that, things get more exotic. Alchemical remedies offer more than just antitoxins—who wants to go adventuring without troll oil or vermin repellent? Alchemical tools range from glues and solvents to defoliants, smoke pellets, and glowing ink. Alchemical weapons include bottled lightning, fireworks, grenades, and more."
The four categories of items under that text (Alchemical remedies, Alchemical tools, Alchemical weapons and Poison) list items that can be made with Craft (alchemy).
There is no example of tools used to make alchemical items (like retorts, alembics, and so on) and a specific list of alchemical equipment.
With craft alchemy you can enchant items that are similar, so elixirs, pills, balms and so on, but not other items.
Here is the SRD page with alchemical stuff.
While SRD < PRD, it still is a rough guide to things that are alchemical.
Honestly, this is not legit, it's not even a corner-case. You're crafting the item and infuse it with magic... you don't dowse it in chemicals and expect magic to happen. There is no alchemical magic. Not even Alchemist's Extracts/Infusions are magic, they are not treated as magic in any way and isn't enough to be able to craft magical items with it.
What about ghost salts? Alchemical blanches? Add them to your weapon, and your weapon becomes enchanted. They may be short term one shot items, but then so are scrolls.
Annealing, plating, dipping and the like are valid chemical treatments. So you can "dowse it in chemicals" and "expect magic to happen"./cevah
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The alchemist ability is SU, sure, but they aren't spellcasters.
And the skill Craft (alchemy) isn't magical at all.Alchemist: Is an alchemist a spellcaster for the purpose of crafting magic items other than potions?
As written, no, alchemists are not spellcasters, and therefore can't select feats such as Craft Wondrous Item.
The design team is aware that this creates some thematic problems with the idea of an alchemist creating golems and so on, and plan to examine this in the future.
posted March 2013That's completely besides the point. Craft (jewelry) isn't magical either, and yet it can interact with the Master Craftsman feat to produce Wondrous Items.
Thus, an Alchemist with Master Craftsman can use his Craft (alchemy) to produce magical effects in exactly the same way as that Jeweler, and his alchemical magical effects can be used to infuse mundane items with permanent magical abilities because that's what Master Craftsman does.
However, if you don't really like that, the Alchemist can forget about the Master Craftsman feat, take the Spell Knowledge discovery to become an arcane caster, and then use Spellcraft like every other crafter.
It is perfectly clear that you would allow a jeweler to add two coils of gold wire on a sword pommel and enchant it, but it is a very stretched interpretation of the rules.
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The rules make no such restriction for CWI, therefore the comparison is invalid.
Otherwise yes, you could very well argue that someone could enchant a gem such that when used as a pommel stone provided a particular magical enchantment to a sword. In fact, my player had such a sword way back in AD&D 2.0 when crafting was less defined. So sure, such a thing is entirely reasonable unless specifically prohibited by the rules...which it is.
The rules say what skill you can use with wondrous items:
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
You choose to say that Craft (alchemy) is a valid skill for enchanting items that aren't elixir/pills/unguent or something similar. But that is stretching what is an "applicable Craft" to a point theat Mister Fantastic will have trouble matching.
I making a Witcher style character and wish to be able to make minor items using alchemy. The rest all makes sense.
Honestly, as a 'witcher style' character, you should probably be a magus, and thus not need to take master craftsman (as you'd have a caster level already).