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As someone who is currently playing a non-evil necromancer, I've got to say the draw of non-evil undead is very simple in my eyes.
Every unique undead is on some level a tragedy and a story, they were people once, they lived, loved and died, they had desires and dreams, wants, hopes and fears and all this is laid out for the players to explore when they come across the silent haunting of their once-homes by the lost and the damned.
Be it the ghost that haunts her resting place because her body was never found, the desperate ever-hungry mother, who died in a famine and still carries her still living child, constantly fighting the urge to feast on it while she finds someone, anyone who can take it from her to somewhere safe or the skeletal paladin that holds vanguard and the line long after the forces of darkness have stopped trying to face him, the undead are a wonderful, dark and tragic mirror of lives unfulfilled. Even hordes of mindless undead can be used to show really interesting horrors by proxy, wrongs that might not ever be righted because the worst has already happened and all the PCs can do is try to help as they can.If you make all undead always evil, you lose the subtle sympathy that there could be for them and reduce what are essentially, the tragic lost and hopeless dead to monsters one and all, after all, we all die one day and wouldn't we like to rest easy in our graves as well, or if we were murdered, to have our killers brought to justice?
So, less special snowflake, more its an interesting angle that rarely gets used because undead are Always Evil.
It's still special snowflake. You just listed exceptions, sort of.
You can get dark and tragic without non-evil undead.
The mother who carries her child also is compelled to kill any who would agree to take it. For example. So she wanders trying to find help, and the one who will end her to save it.
The Undead Paladin who no longer can discern good from evil. Who has lost their Paladin abilities...
Except at that point they're no longer characters in most players eyes, they're monsters and anything they do or plan is seen through that lens.
Ghost looking for her killer? Obviously attacking people, destroy it.Mother with alive baby? Kill Ghoul, gain orphan.
Skeleton in Armour guarding something? No point asking questions, put it down with a mace.
People aren't going to ask questions or take an interest in the background of a monster encounter and with all undead being evil, its just out and out less interesting and tragic that they exist.
If Undead are special snowflakes, its because we all are, everyone who dies and rises are the undead has their own unique suffering that did it, because everyone dies alone (barring necromancer animated ones or massive disaster fuelled undead hordes, who also have their own shared situation), just waving it away as 'oh all non-evil undead are just trying to be special' is as lazy as me saying 'Oh anyone that wants to be an elf and have a longer life span and be of a non-human race? Special Snowflake' and you know it.
Special Snowflake means nothing, if the foundation you're building what's common on, is stupid. I decide all my halflings live under hills and never go on adventures, someone asks to play a halfling and I laugh them out of the room.
Or could be that halflings live in a number of places and have different personalities and he can play his idea.
Which makes for a more interesting world?
Undead are evil because the designer said so.
And yet there are constant examples of non-evil undead which are consistently, far and out the more interesting ones.
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Neutral and/or Good undead are a standard in Egyptian, Roman, Chinese, Celtic, Irish, Tibeten, and Vietnames mythologies...heck, even early Christianity, so it's not like there isn't overwhelmingly abundent precedent for neutral and good undead. If anything, it's the all-undead-are-evil stories that are the odd ones out. Take your Special Snowflake Embodiments of Evil Undead out of our TRADITIONAL fantasy!
Golarion's a special snowflake that butts heads with the rules a lot and isn't internally consistent at all, but we have to remember what being evil actually means. It means hurting, oppressing, and killing. And you're not evil unless you're doing those things more than you are being altruistic, protecting life, and being concerned for the dignity of sentient creatures.Evil isn't about how many times you kick puppies as opposed to how many times you helped old ladies across the street.
It's about the fact that you kick puppies.... period.
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
...Occasionally the rules refer to "steps" when dealing with alignment. In this case, "steps" refers to the number of alignment shifts between the two alignments, as shown on the following diagram. Note that diagonal "steps" count as two steps. For example, a lawful neutral character is one step away from a lawful good alignment, and three steps away from a chaotic evil alignment. A cleric's alignment must be within one step of the alignment of her deity.
...
Nine distinct alignments define the possible combinations of the lawful-chaotic axis with the good-evil axis. Each description below depicts a typical character of that alignment. Remember that individuals vary from this norm, and that a given character may act more or less in accord with his alignment from day to day. Use these descriptions as guidelines, not as scripts.
...
Players who frequently have their characters change alignment should in all likelihood be playing chaotic neutral characters.
So...no.
The whole "creating undead is like purposefully giving someone an addiction" argument kinda falls flat when there's a spell that does exactly that.
It might be evil, but it isn't Evil.
Creating golems seems way more evil to me than raising undead from corpses. Making a golem imprisons an elemental spirit and drives it insane. It has been canonically established that having a body raised as undead doesn't do anything to the original soul. A dead paladin raised as a vampire after death doesn't actually have their good soul pulled out of a rewarding afterlife and instantly turned evil. Instead, the vampire would be some sort of "soul echo" of that paladin.
Due to the fact that spells like True Resurrection actually create a new body, that means it is possible to raise a body as undead, then use Ressurection on the soul and have both a living and an undead version of the same person. The only undead that might be and exception to this are undead like Ghosts, which actually are described as trapped spirits. It is unclear if resurrection is a valid means of getting rid of a ghost. It could be that "soul" and "spirit" are actually different things in the game cosmology.
As noted in the link posted earlier, there is a whole lot about necromancy that doesn't make sense. To be honest, I kinda like how weird necromancy is. In most of my games, the answers to all these questions are "yes" even when they create contradictions. Allowing the paradoxes makes necromancy strange and hard to understand.
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Alignment > Pharasma.Pharasma would be inclined to disagree with you.No, it factually is not.If you make yourself undead, you defy fate, you defy balance.
You force your will above that of existence and nature.
Self serving, self empowering.
That is Evil."She is out for herself, pure and simple."
Quote from the Core Rulebook, on the subject of Neutral Evil.Shackling your soul, defying fate, all so you can "live" longer.
All so you can avoid death.
That's self serving, to the extent that you are willing to corrupt your soul.
That's self serving, to the extent that you are willing to defy your own death.
That is self serving, to the extent that it is just about the greediest thing that you could do.
That is self serving, to the extent that you would deny the afterlife you are destined for the soul that you owe it.You seek out undeath, you are serving yourself above all else.
You seek out undeath, you are commiting evil.
Pharasma isn't good aligned.
And my character spends money on himself to buy bread so he doesn't starve to death, instead of giving it to Tiny Tim the Orphan boy who really, really needs a new kidney.Is my character evil? No.
You're defining the urge to not die as evil, if that's the case, everything is evil, no one is good, end of story.
Or are you defining evil as not being willing to go along with the plan fate has for you, since if so, every character that's ever given bread to the starving, or put clothing on the backs of the cold is evil, because fate led that person there and you're defying it.
As for denying the afterlife, maybe that's true in Golarion, but here and now, we are alive (or, well, undead) and there are things to be done.
Maybe Paladins should just enact a mass suicide, give their souls over to the good and allow themselves to be remolded into Angels, as soldiers for the war against evil, they'd do more good that way.
They're weak arguments.
Becoming undead harms no one except yourself and even that's questionable compared to the alternatives.
Everyone serves themselves to one degree or another and there are other reasons beyond that to remain.
Is every Attic Whisperer evil? Because they were tormented and abused and are now alone and terrified and lost and doomed for their nature when they were basically the victim of child abuse?
Or a murder victim who only intends to stop the same happening to another, are they doomed forever for being 'selfish' enough to want no more people to suffer?
If so, its the moral imperative of any good aligned character to rebel against such a system and defy the natural order, because it is wrong by definition, in the exact same way that handing over the keys to the land to Asmodeus himself is morally wrong.
Or we could not extrapolate things that far and assume that its that Urgathoa and most people that willingly become undead are evil, rather than all undead ever being evil.
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An undead feasting on the living is different than an animal doing the same. For one, you say it yourself that most of the time they recieve no nourishment from it.
Plus consuming the flesh of a sentient creature is generally considered to be cannibalisim, an evil act.
Why aren't lizardfolk evil then? They commit cannibalism to friend and foe, and yet have neutral alignment. Actually, is cannibalism actually listed as an evil act in any Pathfinder book?
I cant hit every single one of your examples (I'm not going to put in that much work) but here are a few:Evil Committed by others or through evil emotions like anger:
Anger isn't evil. Good gods get angry. Paladins get angry. Did the barbarian class get errata'd to Only Evil while I wasn't looking? Do you seriously think being angry is evil... That's screwed up man.
Allip: Suicide from madness. Evil Act.
There is no sign that suicide or madness are evil.
Attic Whisperer: An attic whisperer spawns as the result of a lonely or neglected child's death. Evil Act.
A lonely kid dies, how is there an evil act?
Sea Bonze: Sea bonzes are formed from the combined despair and horror of death at sea, such as when a ship sinks and its entire crew drowns. It combines the anger and doom of all who die in such close proximity. Evil
Emotions are not evil. To suggest so is ridiculous.
Poltergeist: A poltergeist is an angry spirit that forms from the soul of a creature that, for whatever reason, becomes unable to leave the site of its death. Sometimes, this might be due to an unfinished task—other times, it might be due to a powerful necromantic effect. Desecrating a grave site by building a structure over the body below is the most common method of accidentally creating a poltergeist. The poltergeist experiences great trauma over its condition; this trauma twists its psyche to evil and fosters an overall hatred of the living expressed in outbursts of rage. Evil Act.
How is "unfinished task" evil?
Huecuvas are the risen corpses of heretical clerics who blasphemed and renounced their deities before meeting death. Evil Act.
So a cleric who renounces a neutral or evil god and becomes Lawful Good is committing an evil act... your being ridiculous again.
Unless you can show a few undead that just show up because of positive emotions or aren't manifestations of things like anger or other 'bad' emotions I really don't think you are going to convince anyone with those examples.
Emotions aren't bad and all the ones you listed arguments against bar one (devourer, though I specifically told you the argument against) have major flaws, I mean god. Being lonely is evil to you? Renouncing a god is evil to you? Being angry and scared is evil to you? Trying to end your suffering when your not in control of your actions is evil to you?
Others can be explained usually by the following:
ANIMATE DEAD; School necromancy [evil]
None of the ones I mentioned are raised by spells... so that's obviously false.
Ghosts are the one that is generally accepted to not necessarily be evil.
If you actually read this thread you would have seen people post examples of undead that lack evil alignment, and my list contains things like Skeletal Champions that specifically can rise for the same reasons as a ghost. Or "I was killed by a trap" or "I was crushed by a boulder in the wilderness" or "we died on a boat", "we died in war", "I'm a lonely kid who get disease and died", "I'm a person who thinks I was killed unjustly, even if I actually was not wronged at all", "I was bitten by an alien", etc.
"Why do people presume undead template means evil template?"
Because in (video/tabletop) games, undead are usually evil.
In the game(s) I run, undead are evil, full stop. One is Pathfinder set in Golarian, one is 2e DnD set in the Outer Planes.
In one game I play, the undead we have have found so far were evil, and it's set in Golarian.
In the other game I played, most of the undead were evil, with one exception. This was set in an unnamed world, using 1e-ish rules.
So are undead evil in general?
Well, it comes down to:
1) Playing a house game? It's what your DM decides.
2) Playing PFS, or asking about Golarion as a default? It's up to Paizo.
Contributor
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I always liked how Eberron handled undead, especially the Elves.
Also, wasn't the half elf half Dragon Lich with the cult, Vol (?) Not evil.
From everything I remember about the Blood of Vol cult, they (and their mistress) were extremely evil. Think of the worst side of Urgathoa's cult, except that Urgathoa herself is there, helping you bleed people out.
You may be thinking instead of the nation of Karrnath and its use of military undead. (The Blood of Vol are secretly based there, if I recall correctly.)
Eberron elves used Deathless rather than undead didn't they?
In my buddy's campaign setting, the god of undeath is lawful good because my vampire paladin who was too stubborn to turn evil inherited the position at the end of his campaign.
It made both other paladins and other undead really uncomfortable.
In my buddy's campaign setting, the god of undeath is lawful good because my vampire paladin who was too stubborn to turn evil inherited the position at the end of his campaign.
It made both other paladins and other undead really uncomfortable.
Okay, now this is the kind of special snowflake exception story I can approve of. Fantasy literature could always use a bit more farce.
Okay, now this is the kind of special snowflake exception story I can approve of. Fantasy literature could always use a bit more farce.In my buddy's campaign setting, the god of undeath is lawful good because my vampire paladin who was too stubborn to turn evil inherited the position at the end of his campaign.
It made both other paladins and other undead really uncomfortable.
He was a paladin of the setting's sun goddess, to boot. When he got turned, we decided the irony was too good not to work into the campaign.
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You not liking them being evil does not, in fact, make it illogical.I've heard retorts like this use often on the boards. Why do people here seem to have such a hard time understanding cause and effect? We dislike it because it's illogical.Why? Because real undead don't become evil because they are undead?
What, exactly, is illogical about the state of undeath warping your mind to an evil state?
The part where it doesn't.
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I always liked how Eberron handled undead, especially the Elves.
Also, wasn't the half elf half Dragon Lich with the cult, Vol (?) Not evil.
From everything I remember about the Blood of Vol cult, they (and their mistress) were extremely evil. Think of the worst side of Urgathoa's cult, except that Urgathoa herself is there, helping you bleed people out.
You may be thinking instead of the nation of Karrnath and its use of military undead. (The Blood of Vol are secretly based there, if I recall correctly.)
I don't have the source available at the moment, but it was my understanding that the cult of Vol got made super evil by WotC, but were supposedly far more gray in Keith Baker's vision of them.
I recall a thing about how they belief the gods played a dirty trick on mortals by giving every mortal the potential for godhood but lifetimes so short that they could never discover the secret, so the undead members of the cult are like martyrs who have given up the chance for godhood to extend their lives to discover the secret for their living brethren.
I'll see if I can do some digging. It made me a lot more interested in Karnath than I was initially, because that seemed like a really cool concept.
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The part where it doesn't.You not liking them being evil does not, in fact, make it illogical.I've heard retorts like this use often on the boards. Why do people here seem to have such a hard time understanding cause and effect? We dislike it because it's illogical.Why? Because real undead don't become evil because they are undead?
What, exactly, is illogical about the state of undeath warping your mind to an evil state?
If it doesn't why are all undead in the bestiaries evil?
Why do all the templates but ghost require evil?
What evidence that it doesn't does anyone have outside of references from other game systems?
I get not LIKING it, but its pretty obvious that it does in fact make you evil in pathfinder.
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The part where it doesn't.You not liking them being evil does not, in fact, make it illogical.I've heard retorts like this use often on the boards. Why do people here seem to have such a hard time understanding cause and effect? We dislike it because it's illogical.Why? Because real undead don't become evil because they are undead?
What, exactly, is illogical about the state of undeath warping your mind to an evil state?
If it doesn't why are all undead in the bestiaries evil?
Why do all the templates but ghost require evil?
What evidence that it doesn't does anyone have outside of references from other game systems?
I get not LIKING it, but its pretty obvious that it does in fact make you evil in pathfinder.
Except that it doesn't. Templates applied to creatures will change their alignments. However, there is no game effect that forces alignment to remain that way. There is no effect that compels them to act in accordance with that alignment. In fact, everything that is written about alignment explicitly notes that being an alignment doesn't stop you from acting outside of that alignment. That's explicitly how your alignment changes.
The only exception that I can think of is the helm of opposition, a cursed item that actually and explicitly forces an appreciation of the new alignment.
There is no mechanical part of being undead that makes you or forces you to be evil or remain evil. Nothing in the undead type. Not even the "always evil" undead in the bestiary are forced to be evil. When a template's effect is applied to alignment, nothing exists after that to keep it from changing back to whatever it was before or to a new alignment with the character's actions.
That's what I'm saying. There's nothing that forces you to be evil. Using the Paladin example, if your alignment is magically changed (and every create spawn effect is magical, as are spells like create undead) you even get your alignment restored as a freebie along with your class features when you get an atonement spell.
You not liking them being evil does not, in fact, make it illogical.I've heard retorts like this use often on the boards. Why do people here seem to have such a hard time understanding cause and effect? We dislike it because it's illogical.Why? Because real undead don't become evil because they are undead?
What, exactly, is illogical about the state of undeath warping your mind to an evil state?
Real undead...?
Anyway, I was only referring to zombies and skeletons. In their case, the rules are internally inconsistent. Creatures with less than 3 Intelligence are stated not to be smart enough to understand morality and thus can only be neutral. Zombies and skeletons have no Intelligence score, but are aligned anyway.
In the case of other undead, I merely think it's dumb.
Application of a template being magical alignment change is debateable. The alignment change seems one step away from the magical effect to be honest.
If it doesn't why are all undead in the bestiaries evil?
People have stated previous examples of undead that are listed as neutral, I was reading up on one yesterday, the Deathweb. But there are also ghosts, ectoplasmic creatures, trench zombies, and a few others were mentioned in the thread earlier iirc. Also the bestiaries have this to say on alignment "Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with Intelligence scores of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable."
Why do all the templates but ghost require evil?
Ectoplasmic creature
I get not LIKING it, but its pretty obvious that it does in fact make you evil in pathfinder.
Maybe for a day or two. But if you then do good actions and commit no evil then you'll be back to good in no time.
Application of a template being magical alignment change is debateable. The alignment change seems one step away from the magical effect to be honest.
Well, templates applied through Create Spawn abilities are magical changes of alignment, since Create Spawn is a supernatural effect. Though something like mummy lords or liches, where it through methods other than create spawn aren't necessarily supernatural effects (but probably are considering it's magic).
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Maybe for a day or two. But if you then do good actions and commit no evil then you'll be back to good in no time.
What reason other than metagaming as a pc would undead hungry for the living have to commit no evil and do good actions?
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There's a non evil undead zombie magus or something in the Godsmouth something, something adventure set under Kaer Maga, so you know, s*~* happens, even on Golarion.Hence why Golarion is really inconsistent. Undead are evil except when they are not. Yet everyone still holds up the banner that all undead are evil, when even the setting can't keep it's s#!$ together. I mean it has redeemed fiends which you'd think would be infinitely less likely and they still hold this line.
Also for people still going with negative=evil because undead, Positive energy makes people explode. Look at the positive energy plane. Go there, and you detonate, just like going to positive makes you a wraith, going to fire makes you incinerate, water makes you drown, air makes you fall til you hit something and die, and earth makes you go squish. They are elemental planes, they're all inimical to mortal life. But Negative is the evil one?
I saw a writup for a freaking paladin sucubus somewhere
Evil can have many shades too. Not all of them are of the pitchest black. Goes for Good tooToo true.
Good deeds done for selfish reasons.
Wicked deeds done for just causes.It's all about extent, context, and rationale.
Raising an undead hoard to protect a village is still an evil action (you are, as I said before, binding their souls after all).
It's just done for a good cause.
If you're willing to resort to such a perverse method of defense, then the action's not really so goodly...After all, very few villains recognize themselves as such.
by that logic casting holy word into an orphanage is a good act
So neglecting someone to death isn't evil?While we're making up evil acts, I'd like to point out that eating chocolate icecream is an abhorrently evil act, along with playing checkers, and feeling depressed.Allip: Suicide from madness. Evil Act.
Attic Whisperer: An attic whisperer spawns as the result of a lonely or neglected child's death. Evil Act.
do not mistake stupidity for evil
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The same reasons they had to commit no evil and do good before becoming undead.
Maybe for a day or two. But if you then do good actions and commit no evil then you'll be back to good in no time.
What reason other than metagaming as a pc would undead hungry for the living have to commit no evil and do good actions?
Thats called being good aligned, when you're evilly aligned (like 99% of undead) your priorities are different as regards self interest. Thats what an alignment change is.
What reason other than metagaming as a pc would undead hungry for the living have to commit no evil and do good actions?
Why wouldn't they? They are sentient beings with nothing preventing them from doing good. There is no text in the game that says "Oh, when you become an undead you get lobotomised."
To me, you basically just asked "What reason other than metagaming as a pc would humans have to commit no evil and do good actions?" Simply having a need to feed on the living is not in itself evil, especially when there are non-evil methods of feeding.
Thats called being good aligned, when you're evilly aligned (like 99% of undead) your priorities are different as regards self interest. Thats what an alignment change is.
Alignment is descriptive not prescriptive.
But canonically, there's something about the undead condition that warps your mind (quickly? slowly?) to evil. Otherwise, undead would have the same alignment range as everyone else, and they'd just be ordinary citizens, adventurers, soldiers, etc. Which is fine if that's the type of world you want to create, but sometimes it's nice to have creatures you can run into while adventuring and know that it's OK to kill them.Or perhaps it's not really you at all anymore. Order of the Stick has a storyline going about a main character going vampire - and the character isn't actually controlling his body at all. His soul/personality is being held captive by the vampire - held captive in his own mind for the vampire to interrogate. Watching - but unable to do anything.
I thought that it was an interesting take on it.
Interestingly in Golarion according to sources like Blood of the Night, free vampires are their very living self including their original alignment, what makes most of them evil is that in the long run most just give in to their supernatural need of humanoid blood
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Alignment is descriptive not prescriptive.
That literally doesn't mean anything at all. It is DESCRIBING the moral and personal outlooks of the target.
Moreover this IS an actual sentence in the base rules regarding alignment: A creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment
An alignment shift represents a shift in your moral and personal attitudes. The idea that the same things that drove them to be good before an alignment shift to evil would drive them to behave the same way after a fundamental shift in moral attitude is basically ignoring the alignment change and hoping it goes away.
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Maybe for a day or two. But if you then do good actions and commit no evil then you'll be back to good in no time.
What reason other than metagaming as a pc would undead hungry for the living have to commit no evil and do good actions?
What reason do you have to not be evil?
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Alignment is descriptive not prescriptive.That literally doesn't mean anything at all. It is DESCRIBING the moral and personal outlooks of the target.
Moreover this IS an actual sentence in the base rules regarding alignment: A creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment
An alignment shift represents a shift in your moral and personal attitudes. The idea that the same things that drove them to be good before an alignment shift to evil would drive them to behave the same way after a fundamental shift in moral attitude is basically ignoring the alignment change and hoping it goes away.
Well, it's more like you're ignoring it and hoping to not be a target of a holy smite spell while you're in the process of becoming a good character again.
Because alignment doesn't determine action. Action determines alignment.
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The part where it doesn't.You not liking them being evil does not, in fact, make it illogical.I've heard retorts like this use often on the boards. Why do people here seem to have such a hard time understanding cause and effect? We dislike it because it's illogical.Why? Because real undead don't become evil because they are undead?
What, exactly, is illogical about the state of undeath warping your mind to an evil state?
I can understand saying that it doesn't follow (i.e. there's a consistent way to view things such that undead don't have to be evil) that undeath has a predisposition toward evil. In fact, I agree. I can understand saying that it follows from free will that undeath doesn't have a predisposition toward evil (i.e. it's illogical), although I disagree.
I don't understand how you can say with such authority that the undead think the same way as we do. Unless you are one?
The rules tell us that the alignment entry of a stat block only represents the norm for a creature. Since the norm for some acquired templates are different than others, that means there's either a bias to which creatures acquire the template or the template has some impact. Some (e.g. lich) probably skew toward the former while others (ones created as spawn, e.g. vampire) are probably the latter. So from there it's just a matter of deciding how strong that norm is and why.
So what's the story for vampires? Well, I believe that I have free will, but I know my decisions are influenced by my biology. Despite that, I'm responsible for what I do. I care for my fellow living beings and that affects what I feel is the right thing to do, which in turn affects what I choose to do. Other intelligent creatures presumably are the same way. With sufficient concerted effort they could decide to have morality and personality inconsistent with their natural inclinations, but it will be a constant struggle.
How much effort depends on how strong the inclination is. The typical Paizo party line is the inclination is pretty darned strong but not 100%. Heck, there's a published succubus who defied her nature and alignment ties don't get much stronger than in aligned outsiders (although fallen angel is a common enough trope). Undead are probably weaker inclinations than that, but still strong enough that it's interesting when there's an exception.
Tl;dr, the rules tell us what the norms are, not why. You have to decide for yourself what causes those norms if you want to have an interesting exception.
Alignment determines basic moral outlook, which influences action. The reasons that move a Lawful Good person to behave a certain way are not the same as the reasons that move a Neutral Evil person to behave a certain way.
The very event of becoming undead and receiving an alignment shift means that the personality of the person is not going to be the same.
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Alignment determines basic moral outlook, which influences action. The reasons that move a Lawful Good person to behave a certain way are not the same as the reasons that move a Neutral Evil person to behave a certain way.
The very event of becoming undead and receiving an alignment shift means that the personality of the person is not going to be the same.
Well everyones born neutral... so everyone should always act neutral right? The event of being born makes you neutral as you're not capable of morality, until you are but you've already been neutral the whole time. So you should never do anything but behave neutrally.
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Well everyones born neutral... so everyone should always act neutral right? The event of being born makes you neutral as you're not capable of morality, until you are but you've already been neutral the whole time. So you should never do anything but behave neutrally.Alignment determines basic moral outlook, which influences action. The reasons that move a Lawful Good person to behave a certain way are not the same as the reasons that move a Neutral Evil person to behave a certain way.
The very event of becoming undead and receiving an alignment shift means that the personality of the person is not going to be the same.
You are talking about alignment not changing. He is talking about alignment changing.
Well everyones born neutral... so everyone should always act neutral right? The event of being born makes you neutral as you're not capable of morality, until you are but you've already been neutral the whole time. So you should never do anything but behave neutrally.Alignment determines basic moral outlook, which influences action. The reasons that move a Lawful Good person to behave a certain way are not the same as the reasons that move a Neutral Evil person to behave a certain way.
The very event of becoming undead and receiving an alignment shift means that the personality of the person is not going to be the same.
You got a page reference for "everyone's born neutral"?
You got a page reference for "everyone's born neutral"?
Outside of creatures made of alignment or creatures magically changed to a different alignment, they are born neutral. Because alignment is based on actions you have committed rather than dictating what actions or views you have. If you haven't committed any evil/chaotic/lawful/good acts, you cannot have those alignments.
Now, based on your logic, no one should ever change from neutral "because that's what their mindset is and they don't see any reason to change from that".
Alignment determines basic moral outlook, which influences action. The reasons that move a Lawful Good person to behave a certain way are not the same as the reasons that move a Neutral Evil person to behave a certain way.
The very event of becoming undead and receiving an alignment shift means that the personality of the person is not going to be the same.
I don't think you understand. Your alignment has 0 effect in any way whatsoever on the way you act. The exact inverse is true, your alignment is determined by the things you do.
Actions can CHANGE alignment, by the very in game definition of the term, it is a two word representation of a characters Moral and Personal attitudes, not a summary of their behaviors.
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Actions can CHANGE alignment, by the very in game definition of the term, it is a two word representation of a characters Moral and Personal attitudes, not a summary of their behaviors.
Alignment is determined by actions and moral/personal attitudes, it does not Cause actions and moral/personal attitudes. It is descriptive, not prescriptive. Being good does not mean you cannot commit evil acts, it means you wont continue being good. Because alignment is a generalize description of the characters morality. If your evil in alignment, nothing stops you from being good.