According to other discussions, a fully unarmed monk is not a good build compared to a monk with some monk weapons.
Am i right or not? And if that's the case... how can we build a pure unarmed monk more even with a monk with some monk weapons?
bump
It's a lie. You can make an amazing Unarmed Monk.
Go Unchained, pick Power Attack and Dragon Style, and Weapon Focus, Throw in Iron Will, then get Dimensional feats for utility.
Main items will be deliquescent gloves, amulet of mighty fists, stat boosters and that's about it.
Get grappling feats too. It's amazing utility.
Weapons are just cheaper and easier to get more damage with. Unarmed just can't compete. Unarmed used to have a bit better time before ascetic style came along, now the only thing unarmed strikes have is Pummeling style.
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Pummeling Style is still very good, and it's still unarmed only. However, the big draw of Pummeling Style, the psuedopounce, is sidelined by the UMonk's Flying Kick Style Strike, which can be performed with a weapon thanks to Ascetic Style.
That said, even though an unarmed monk is mechanically weaker than a weapon monk, you can still make an unarmed monk that is very strong.
Edit: Pummeling Style also stops you from using the unchained style strikes, because a pummeling style attack is not a flurry of blows, it simply allows you to make the same number of attacks that you would have made with a flurry of blows. Even if you are unarmed, Pummeling Style is not the best option if you are an unchained monk. It's still great for chained monks, brawlers, and any other class that gets a flurry.
Pummeling Style is still very good, and it's still unarmed only. However, the big draw of Pummeling Style, the psuedopounce, is sidelined by the UMonk's Flying Kick Style Strike, which can be performed with a weapon thanks to Ascetic Style.
That said, even though an unarmed monk is mechanically weaker than a weapon monk, you can still make an unarmed monk that is very strong.
Edit: Pummeling Style also stops you from using the unchained style strikes, because a pummeling style attack is not a flurry of blows, it simply allows you to make the same number of attacks that you would have made with a flurry of blows. Even if you are unarmed, Pummeling Style is not the best option if you are an unchained monk. It's still great for chained monks, brawlers, and any other class that gets a flurry.
Incorrect. The action is still a Flurry:
Whenever you use a full-attack action or flurry of blows to make multiple attacks against a single opponent with unarmed strikes, total the damage from all hits before applying damage reduction. This ability works only with unarmed strikes, no matter what other abilities you might possess.
So you could skip Flying Kick with a Pummeling Style build and go straight for shattering Punch and spin kick.
Step 1: Make a monk.
Step 2: Take away all his weapons.
Yeah, this'll do.
Don't forget, the idea isn't 'Is this the utmost lethal build?', it's 'Will this build have a good chance at surviving and doing his/her job?'.
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Edit: Pummeling Style also stops you from using the unchained style strikes, because a pummeling style attack is not a flurry of blows, it simply allows you to make the same number of attacks that you would have made with a flurry of blows. Even if you are unarmed, Pummeling Style is not the best option if you are an unchained monk. It's still great for chained monks, brawlers, and any other class that gets a flurry.Incorrect. The action is still a Flurry:
Whenever you use a full-attack action or flurry of blows to make multiple attacks against a single opponent with unarmed strikes, total the damage from all hits before applying damage reduction. This ability works only with unarmed strikes, no matter what other abilities you might possess.So you could skip Flying Kick with a Pummeling Style build and go straight for shattering Punch and spin kick.
Ah, I was thinking of the pre-errata pummeling style, that was a separate action type.
Eh- a lot of people are focusing on how weapons are better on unchained monk since ascetic style came around.
So skip unchained monk. Go with core monk with the Sohei archetype.
There are several reasons for this:
-with pummeling style, there is little difference between the two in practice. You can still move and flurry, and as such you get tons of full attacks. So you are practically full BAB
-Sohei have access to abilities that unchained monk lack. They have weapon trianing, which gives them access to gloves of dueling, and more importantly for this, they can grab brawling armor.
Brawling armor gives +2 attack/damage to unarmed strikes. No idea if ascetic style lets that apply to weapons...but doesn't matter- can't get flying kick and brawling armor at the same time. So that remains an advantage for unarmed strikes (which can using pummeling charge for their move+full attack).
When you use pummeling style to flurry most fo the time, sohei are stronger than unchained monks. With weapon training (+3), dueling gloves (+2), and brawling armor (+2), you have the kind of attack bonuses more often seen on fighters (Which are well known for their attack bonuses). Those bonuses also apply to damage...but that is a 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other thing, since sohei lose the scaling damage dice on unarmed strikes- so it evens out with all the static damage bonuses they get.
This was actually one of the main reasons why I was wary of unchained monks when they were released- you could already make a sohei tht could do unarmed builds better than them. And flying kick did not mesh well with weapon attacks.
Eh- a lot of people are focusing on how weapons are better on unchained monk since ascetic style came around.
So skip unchained monk. Go with core monk with the Sohei archetype.
There are several reasons for this:
-with pummeling style, there is little difference between the two in practice. You can still move and flurry, and as such you get tons of full attacks. So you are practically full BAB
-Sohei have access to abilities that unchained monk lack. They have weapon trianing, which gives them access to gloves of dueling, and more importantly for this, they can grab brawling armor.Brawling armor gives +2 attack/damage to unarmed strikes. No idea if ascetic style lets that apply to weapons...but doesn't matter- can't get flying kick and brawling armor at the same time. So that remains an advantage for unarmed strikes (which can using pummeling charge for their move+full attack).
When you use pummeling style to flurry most fo the time, sohei are stronger than unchained monks. With weapon training (+3), dueling gloves (+2), and brawling armor (+2), you have the kind of attack bonuses more often seen on fighters (Which are well known for their attack bonuses). Those bonuses also apply to damage...but that is a 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other thing, since sohei lose the scaling damage dice on unarmed strikes- so it evens out with all the static damage bonuses they get.
This was actually one of the main reasons why I was wary of unchained monks when they were released- you could already make a sohei tht could do unarmed builds better than them. And flying kick did not mesh well with weapon attacks.
Addendum: Soheis can also take Advanced Weapon Training options
Eh- a lot of people are focusing on how weapons are better on unchained monk since ascetic style came around.
So skip unchained monk. Go with core monk with the Sohei archetype.
There are several reasons for this:
-with pummeling style, there is little difference between the two in practice. You can still move and flurry, and as such you get tons of full attacks. So you are practically full BAB
-Sohei have access to abilities that unchained monk lack. They have weapon training, which gives them access to gloves of dueling, and more importantly for this, they can grab brawling armor.Brawling armor gives +2 attack/damage to unarmed strikes. No idea if ascetic style lets that apply to weapons...but doesn't matter- can't get flying kick and brawling armor at the same time. So that remains an advantage for unarmed strikes (which can using pummeling charge for their move+full attack).
When you use pummeling style to flurry most fo the time, sohei are stronger than unchained monks. With weapon training (+3), dueling gloves (+2), and brawling armor (+2), you have the kind of attack bonuses more often seen on fighters (Which are well known for their attack bonuses). Those bonuses also apply to damage...but that is a 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other thing, since sohei lose the scaling damage dice on unarmed strikes- so it evens out with all the static damage bonuses they get.
This was actually one of the main reasons why I was wary of unchained monks when they were released- you could already make a sohei tht could do unarmed builds better than them. And flying kick did not mesh well with weapon attacks.
Yes ascetic style lets the brawling work for weapons. Thus the Sohei's only bonus is again Pummeling style, and you have to wait till lv8 for the charge part of it.
Yes ascetic style lets the brawling work for weapons. Thus the Sohei's only bonus is again Pummeling style, and you have to wait till lv8 for the charge part of it.
Oh dear, you only get your pounce 2 levels earlier than most other classes.
And again- they have other advantages over unchained with weapon training+gloves of duling. And the fact that brawling armors has to be on light armor, which unchained monks can't use. Sohei can use light armor and flurry.
Now, that does help nonmonk characters using brawling armor... but that was almost always the point of the 'light armor only' rule anyway- it was to encourage nonmonks to go unarmed. Sohei just had a nice way to bypass that. Ascetic style just expands that 'helps non monks' to weapon users too.
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Sure, just have his arms cut off. Now you have an unarmed monk!
Sorry, I had to do it, just for kicks.
*rimshot*
Seriously though, if you want to make a monk that focuses on unarmed attacks, go for it. It won't be the most powerful option, but things don't have to be the most powerful option to be fun and effective.
One of the guys at my FLGS plays a PFS character who is a monk (master of many styles) whose shtick is running around enemies, provoking attacks of opportunity, and using snake and panther styles to retaliate with unarmed strikes. He needs a little support, such as mage armor and so forth, but he's sometimes the most effective combatant in the party.
I'm saying that a Sohei can use a weapon with brawling armor and have everything that your punch monk does other than Pummeling pounce at lv8. Plus for the sohei over Umonk you just need the first feat of ascetic style and you don't need the second.
So for sohei or unchained or any class, Unarmed fighting's advantage is pummeling style.
I agree that that Sohei is a great fighting monk.
Sensei Monks are still better built unarmed than with a weapon IMO. Ascetic Style is mutually exclusive with Mantis Style, which is pretty important for the Sensei's actually valuable Stunning Fists.
Sensei is a very different build compared to a regular DPR Monk, of course.
Monks get the ability to make unarmed strikes with any part of their body, so even if your monk doesn't have arms they can still contribute to the fight.[/joke]
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Ascetic Style is mutually exclusive with Mantis Style, which is pretty important for the Sensei's actually valuable Stunning Fists.
It's not, actually. Weapon Style Mastery allows you to have a weapon style and and another style active at the same time. It would also allow you to apply those Stunning Fists using your weapon.
Sure, just have his arms cut off. Now you have an unarmed monk!
Sorry, I had to do it, just for kicks.
*rimshot*
Seriously though, if you want to make a monk that focuses on unarmed attacks, go for it. It won't be the most powerful option, but things don't have to be the most powerful option to be fun and effective.
One of the guys at my FLGS plays a PFS character who is a monk (master of many styles) whose shtick is running around enemies, provoking attacks of opportunity, and using snake and panther styles to retaliate with unarmed strikes. He needs a little support, such as mage armor and so forth, but he's sometimes the most effective combatant in the party.
That a really high leveled monk
I'm saying that a Sohei can use a weapon with brawling armor and have everything that your punch monk does other than Pummeling pounce at lv8. Plus for the sohei over Umonk you just need the first feat of ascetic style and you don't need the second.
So for sohei or unchained or any class, Unarmed fighting's advantage is pummeling style.
I agree that that Sohei is a great fighting monk.
Ah, sorry- got defensive there since there is usually resistance when I bring up sohei advantages.
Anyway, the way I would label it is 'its fine' compared to weapon style. At least compared with other classes using TWF. They get decent static bonuses to damage on every hit, great bonus to hit, and the AoMF costs the same as two enhanced weapons. With qinggong letting you grab barkskin to cover up the lack of amulet of nautral armor, it about balances out pointwise.
So you are mostly just trading in some of the ease of use of normal weapons for pseudopounace and clustershot for a TWF style. We can all agree that pummeling style is one of the deal breakers here if you don't want to deal with full on monk-i-ness (ie- lack of armor, highly encouraged to take turtled up stats early on, etc.- one of the other things people complain about unmonk- it didn't fix this central problem that made monks a bit ahrd to use).
Addendum: Soheis can also take Advanced Weapon Training options
I thought you needed fighter levels for that (in addition to weapon training). Or is that just for the feat that I hear speeds up the advanced weapon training at level 5?
Ascetic Style is mutually exclusive with Mantis Style, which is pretty important for the Sensei's actually valuable Stunning Fists.It's not, actually. Weapon Style Mastery allows you to have a weapon style and and another style active at the same time. It would also allow you to apply those Stunning Fists using your weapon.
You are misreading Weapon Style Mastery.
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I thought you needed fighter levels for that (in addition to weapon training). Or is that just for the feat that I hear speeds up the advanced weapon training at level 5?
Addendum: Soheis can also take Advanced Weapon Training options
You need Fighter levels to take the feat. However, they can trade their second and third weapon training groups for advanced weapon training on level up.
You need Fighter levels to take the feat. However, they can trade their second and third weapon training groups for advanced weapon training on level up.I thought you needed fighter levels for that (in addition to weapon training). Or is that just for the feat that I hear speeds up the advanced weapon training at level 5?
Addendum: Soheis can also take Advanced Weapon Training options
Anyway, that would be a big advantage. Going with focused weapon to get warpriest damage dice scaling would make them more powerful. The various damage bonuses would be less 'covering up the lack of scaling', and more 'pure gravy'. At level 12 (when this first comes up), it is like taking weapon specialization, and grows from there. Perfect for the many hits style of Flurry.
Not entirely sure the rest are as immediately necessary or applicable (such as applying bravery to will/reflex, since sohei lacks bravery and has those as good saves anyway). Trained grace might be good (double weapon training- yay- that can give up to a +5 attack damage more) although I would more tend to use if if I was starting from high level, since I would have to wait for agile AoMF, and be more tempted to go strength with a level 1 build...cause soheis can do well enough with strength focus compared to normal monks.
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You are misreading Weapon Style Mastery.Ascetic Style is mutually exclusive with Mantis Style, which is pretty important for the Sensei's actually valuable Stunning Fists.It's not, actually. Weapon Style Mastery allows you to have a weapon style and and another style active at the same time. It would also allow you to apply those Stunning Fists using your weapon.
No, I'm not.
You can combine multiple fighting styles together.
Prerequisites: Any two style feats from different styles,
base attack bonus +6, weapon training class feature with a
melee weapon.
Benefit: Choose one weapon style (a style feat that lists
Weapon Focus as a prerequisite) that you have. You can have
the chosen style and a second style active at once. Starting
a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but
you can assume both the chosen weapon style’s stance and
another style’s stance simultaneously using this action.
This ability doesn’t stack with other abilities that allow
you to have multiple styles active at the same time.
Normal: You can have only one style active at once
You choose a weapon style. Nowhere does it say the second style activated must be a weapon style.
Weapon Style Mastery (Style, Weapon Mastery)
You can combine multiple fighting styles together.
Prerequisites: Any two style feats from different styles, BAB +6, weapon training class feature with a melee weapon.
Benefit: Choose one weapon style (a style feat that lists Weapon Focus as a prerequisite) that you have. You can have the chosen style and a second style active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but you can assume both the chosen weapon style’s stance and another style’s stance simultaneously using this action. This ability doesn’t stack with other abilities that allow you to have multiple styles active at the same time.
Normal: You can have only one style active at once.
Martial Focus (Combat)
You have honed your skills with a group of related weapons.
Prerequisite: BAB +5.
Benefit: Choose one fighter weapon group. While wielding a weapon from this group with which you are proficient, you gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls.
Special: The Martial Focus feat counts as the weapon training class feature with the chosen fighter weapon group for the purpose of weapon mastery feat prerequisites and what weapons you can use with weapon mastery feats.
so I choose Ascetic style as my weapon style. I have have Ascetic style and a second style active at the same time. And I can enter both as the same swift action. And Sohei works since he'd have two styles and has the weapon training class feature.
This is not Advanced weapon training that needs the fighter levels.
But why are we talking about Weapon Style Mastery if we are talking about unarmed monks? Or maybe i'm not understanding how that works... Weapon Style Mastery in Unarmed Strikes? Then use two stances at the same time? I'm lost.
I feel that, for a build focused on utility rather than damage, five feats isn't really worth it just to use a weapon with Stunning Fist.
I said that a sohei could use weapons with ascetic style and get as more use than a sohei with unarmed strikes. Then someone said that Mantis style is the reason to go sohei, which was responded to with weapon style mastery which lets you go ascetic style and still get mantis style.
That a really high leveled monkSure, just have his arms cut off. Now you have an unarmed monk!
Sorry, I had to do it, just for kicks.
*rimshot*
Seriously though, if you want to make a monk that focuses on unarmed attacks, go for it. It won't be the most powerful option, but things don't have to be the most powerful option to be fun and effective.
One of the guys at my FLGS plays a PFS character who is a monk (master of many styles) whose shtick is running around enemies, provoking attacks of opportunity, and using snake and panther styles to retaliate with unarmed strikes. He needs a little support, such as mage armor and so forth, but he's sometimes the most effective combatant in the party.
Not necessarily. Master of Many Styles lets you take style feats without the prerequisites, so by level 6 he'd have 50 feet of movement and 3 different style feats you don't need to meet the prerequisites for. Also, the Panther Style tree only requires Combat Reflexes, so a human with build could do this trick at level 1 (with less movement), and everyone else could do it easily by level 3.
The question still remains... The purpose is to make a character able to fight with no weapons, even naked she is a deadly foe. She doesn't need and cannot, due to her lifestyle, carry weapons with her. In fact she cannot make others aware of her monk-like training. She looks defenseless 'til the last moment, and all that she needs is her own body to resolve the threat.
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Arachnofiend was talking about Sensei instead of Sohei, but the point still stands.
Actually, Ascetic Style is a great fit for unarmed characters that do not have a scaling damage die for unarmed strikes. Unarmed Strike is a weapon in the monk weapon group, and it would eventually give you scaling damage with IUS. I can see it for Fighters (especially brawler and unarmed fighter archetypes).
The question still remains... The purpose is to make a character able to fight with no weapons, even naked she is a deadly foe. She doesn't need and cannot, due to her lifestyle, carry weapons with her. In fact she cannot make others aware of her monk-like training. She looks defenseless 'til the last moment, and all that she needs is her own body to resolve the threat.
You can make a monk that works just fine using unarmed attacks. You just do so knowing that you could make them better as a weapon user.
That a really high leveled monkSure, just have his arms cut off. Now you have an unarmed monk!
Sorry, I had to do it, just for kicks.
*rimshot*
Seriously though, if you want to make a monk that focuses on unarmed attacks, go for it. It won't be the most powerful option, but things don't have to be the most powerful option to be fun and effective.
One of the guys at my FLGS plays a PFS character who is a monk (master of many styles) whose shtick is running around enemies, provoking attacks of opportunity, and using snake and panther styles to retaliate with unarmed strikes. He needs a little support, such as mage armor and so forth, but he's sometimes the most effective combatant in the party.
Last time I played with him, his monk was level 3, I think. Master of Many Styles lets you get the style feats early on.
MoMS only lets you take the base style feat, now. It's not a path for early entry.
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I have an unchained monk that is unarmed, specializes in tripping opponents with greater trip, ki throw, and vicious stomp. It's nice to substitute one attack for trip to generate 2 AoOs for yourself, and possibly more for your teammates.
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I have an unchained monk that is unarmed, specializes in tripping opponents with greater trip, ki throw, and vicious stomp. It's nice to substitute one attack for trip to generate 2 AoOs for yourself, and possibly more for your teammates.
I have an unarmed unchained monk that does the same thing, but instead of Improved/Greater Trip I use the the Leg Sweep Style strike. I am not giving up an attack to get the trip, I'm saving a few feats, and I still get an AoO from vicious stomp. Of course, I could do the same thing with a weapon with ascetic style.
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Use an AoMF purely for extra boosts (Agile/Flaming etc.) and get an Allying cestus for straight enhancement. Depending upon your GM - you may need to burn an iterative on your largely useless Allying weapon to count as wielding it - though that matters relatively little at levels 8+.
Eventually getting up to +10 is actually a bit cheaper using this method (+5 Allying cestus & +5 AoMF) than for a normal +10 weapon.
This removes one of the largest disadvantages of going unarmed - eventually turning it into an advantage.
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Use an AoMF purely for extra boosts (Agile/Flaming etc.) and get an Allying cestus for straight enhancement. Depending upon your GM - you may need to burn an iterative on your largely useless Allying weapon to count as wielding it - though that matters relatively little at levels 8+.
Eventually getting up to +10 is actually a bit cheaper using this method (+5 Allying cestus & +5 AoMF) than for a normal +10 weapon.
This removes one of the largest disadvantages of going unarmed - eventually turning it into an advantage.
Of course, this only pays off extremely late game. Most games don't make it that far.
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Of course, this only pays off extremely late game. Most games don't make it that far.
It's still more expensive than just a weapon until late game.
It's cheaper than just using an AoMF immediately. Even a base Agile AoMF & a +1 Allying cestus (12.3k) is substantially cheaper than a +1 Agile AoMF (16k). It is still more expensive than just a +1 Agile weapon (8.3k).
You don't need to wait until level 20 to catch up. Consider an Agile/Flaming/Shocking AoMF & +3 Allying cestus (68.3k) vs a +3 Agile/Flaming/Shocking weapon (72.3k). At +6 is where the crossover is.
As a different option - I'd point out that with a druid or wizard buddy & a pearl of power, you could potentially have them magic your unarmed strike for straight enchantment and use the AoMF for specials. (all sorts of negatives to that though)
Not necessarily. Master of Many Styles lets you take style feats without the prerequisites, so by level 6 he'd have 50 feet of movement and 3 different style feats you don't need to meet the prerequisites for. Also, the Panther Style tree only requires Combat Reflexes, so a human with build could do this trick at level 1 (with less movement), and everyone else could do it easily by level 3.That a really high leveled monkSure, just have his arms cut off. Now you have an unarmed monk!
Sorry, I had to do it, just for kicks.
*rimshot*
Seriously though, if you want to make a monk that focuses on unarmed attacks, go for it. It won't be the most powerful option, but things don't have to be the most powerful option to be fun and effective.
One of the guys at my FLGS plays a PFS character who is a monk (master of many styles) whose shtick is running around enemies, provoking attacks of opportunity, and using snake and panther styles to retaliate with unarmed strikes. He needs a little support, such as mage armor and so forth, but he's sometimes the most effective combatant in the party.
So it's an illegal character since MoMS was errata'd to not skip prereqs.
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It's not the highest-optimized, but unarmed monks can certainly be done.
Don't mistake optimal for viable.
What is AoMF?
What is AoMF?
Amulet of Mighty Fists. It is how you get a proper enhancement bonus on unarmed strikes.
Takes up amulet strike, which means you have to abandon an amulet of nautral armor (one of the common sources for AC enhancement). Also, it costs twice as much as a weapon with a similar +. This is because of the idea that you will be using TWF or TWF like styles, so it should be priced like 2 weapons.
There is also a body wrap (slightly less expensive, body slot item), but it is limited to enhancing only a number of attacks that equals your iteratives...which means it can't do TWF or flurry.
Allying knuckles would work too... they're easy to conceal, until needed. But the cestus and knuckles make the monk armed...
I was thinking of adding one soulknife or a soulknife archetype level to her to solve the issue, in some scenarios... That way she is always "unarmed" and "defenseless"... That'll work for low levels, then i can move to the more complex builds you are suggesting, then a few items... for extra fun.