Breaking this down into a few parts.
HiPS on a Rogue?
There are a few ways...
1 Level of Shadowdancer gets you Hide In Plain Sight. Requires Dodge, Mobility and Combat Reflexes.
Skill Focus (Stealth) + Eldritch Heritage (Shadow) + Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow) also gets you Hide In Plain Sight.
Also have you tried Slayer? Its basically a combination of both the Rogue and the Ranger, it can grab Hide In Plain Sight at 10 with an Advanced Slayer Talent (though you need to be in your favored terrain).
There is a Sniper Archetype and one that grants Invisibility a few times per day (Stygian Slayer).
Also IIRC, the Ring of Blinking doesn't auto grant Sneak Attacks in Pathfinder, a much discussed change from 3.5.
He was talking about the Sniper archetype for Slayers. But for a ranged Slayer, I prefer the Stygian Slayer for the Invisibility. If you want ranged sneak attack, you can eventually pick up some Sniper Goggles.
I GMed for a rogue archer in PF that was often REALLY frustrated with the way Stealth and ranged combat interact in PF. You MIGHT only get a sneak attack off once every two rounds until you get a lot of gear and/or feats/class features to help you hide.
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Rogues suck...I don't mind saying so. Don't need to Derail to state facts.
Use Ranger>Slayer, Inquisitor or a Zen archer Monk and be SOOOOOOOOO much better at archery and surviving. Slayer using SA suffers from the same problem as a rogue trying to get that damage. At least they get the studied bonus and Ranger combat feats so they are still doing better than a rogue...on top of a Fort save, D10 HD, medium armor, and Martial weapon Proficiency.
(Sp): At 9th level, you can use the Stealth skill even while being observed and without cover or concealment, as long as you are within 10 feet of a shadow other than your own.In addition, when within an area of darkness or dim light, as a standard action you may choose to switch places with a willing ally within 60 feet, who must also be in darkness or dim light. At 13th level, you can instead switch the positions of two willing allies, each of whom must be within 60 feet of you. Unless otherwise noted, this travel is identical to dimension door. You may use the ability to switch places once per day at 9th level, plus one additional time per day at 17th level and 20th level.
The HiPS portion is all the time. The Shadowswap part of Shadowwell is just extra gravy on top (and is limited number of times per day).
Not to mention it is written as being within 10 feet of ANY SHADOW. That means if a shadow is cast by an enemy due to the sun in broad daylight, you can hide by staying close to it. It doesn't even require Dim Light or Darkness.
I built a Rogue who utilized this and with a high enough Stealth Score you can easily just follow someone around by standing near their own shadow without them being any wiser.
Use Ranger>Slayer, Inquisitor or a Zen archer Monk and be SOOOOOOOOO much better at archery and surviving. Slayer using SA suffers from the same problem as a rogue trying to get that damage. At least they get the studied bonus and Ranger combat feats so they are still doing better than a rogue...on top of a Fort save, D10 HD, medium armor, and Martial weapon Proficiency.
How are you saying the Ranger is doing better than the Slayer on the ranged build? Assuming the Slayer never gets to use his SA, he should be about tied with the Ranger. In cases where SA applies, he should be clearly ahead.
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Deadly Range (Ex) on Slayer's sniper entry:
When the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon's first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks.
After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper's presence."within his weapon's first range increment", means the base "maximum" range of the weapon?
The last sentence, does it mean the snipe attack does not count as the attack mentioned there and i cannot hide after said attack?
This means you can make a sneak attack against an unaware opponent within the first range increment of your weapon. For a standard composite longbow, this is 110 feet. The last sentence means immediately after the first shot, they are aware of you. You cannot stealth unless you have HiPS or cover, and any additional attacks you make from that point on will not count as sneak attacks.
Now that the Slayer covers the Ranger's combat aspect and the rogue's sneakyness and usefulness... Why would I want a Ranger for? What would be their role?
Spells, a pet, and more combat feats. Spells are huge. Once you have access to instant enemy Favored Enemy is much better than Studied Target. Not to mention utility from Longstrider and barkskin. The pet is another full character to fight with the party that the slayer can't match. Finally, the Slayer only gets three combat style feats, while a ranger gets more as they level. A slayer can get an extra combat feat via a rogue talent, but they have to meet the prerequisites for it.
Depends on how much you rely on Instant Enemy style shenanigans to get Favored Enemy working all the time. In that case, Favored Enemy is double the bonus of Studied Target.
Not a viable strategy until higher levels though.
Depends on how much you rely on Instant Enemy style shenanigans to get Favored Enemy working all the time. In that case, Favored Enemy is double the bonus of Studied Target.
Not a viable strategy until higher levels though.
I'd say the bigger problem with instant enemy is the range requirement. It's not an issue in a melee build, but for a ranged build it means you will need to be chargeably close.
Ohhh I see the once a day was for the transposition. Though... 3 feats for it...
While I would agree, Skill Focus (Stealth) can be bought easily as a Human with Focused Study (alternate racial trait) or Adaptability (half-elf racial trait).
Not to mention, Stealth is NOT a DC based ability, it is generally contested by Perception DCs, which will go up as enemies get more and more dangerous and you will always need to have an edge.
The 1st Eldritch Heritage sort of blows I'll give you that, but if you can convince your DM to give you the Umbral Wildblooded Variant instead of Shadowstrike, you can push an extra +1-10 Stealth with Cloak of Shadows.
Another option is:
Hellcat Stealth, but it has some issues.
Its Normal or Bright Light, as opposed to Dim or Darkness. Preference I should say instead of issue.
That and the -10 does kind of suck (though Skill Focus offsets it somewhat).
I personally like doing a Fighter type of archer. Deadly Stroke from a distance is fantastic. Its a little late game, but it makes for that great moment of doing horrifying amounts of damage. Makes Drow so good in this department.
Well then silly me.
Keep in mind that darkvision thwarts stealth in Dim Light / Darkness unless you have HiPS.
Depends on how much you rely on Instant Enemy style shenanigans to get Favored Enemy working all the time. In that case, Favored Enemy is double the bonus of Studied Target.
Not a viable strategy until higher levels though.
It's not, but as someone who waited the 10 level to get a +6 to all attacks and damage on a ranger archer who partied with a bard who always dropped haste it pays off.
5 attacks with a +11 or so bonus to attack and damage pretty much destroyed anything.
I one shot an admantine golem (that had been buffed to have max hp) at level 15 at the end of an AP thanks to a couple lucky crits.
Master Sniper Talent. Its Third Party, just in case you didn't notice.
There is a new Sniping Tree from Dirty Tactics though if thats what you mean...
Expert Sniper and Master Sniper.
Also if Blindsense is a Huge problem you have Dampen Presence. There is a Scent one and an Anti-Tremorsense Item as well but if you keep range with a bow they won't come up as often due to the limited ranges.
Generally its player by player. The general consensus that I see is that people default to 'No' for advice unless otherwise asked.
*shrug*
I use Third Party stuff, on a case by case basis.
At the very least when you get material from Paizo you have a certain expectation that they know their own material well enough to limit these interactions
Where have you been for the last like 2 years?
Yeah FAQS/Erratas happen but that's because the PLAYERS know the material well and point this stuff out. Paizo has REPEATEDLY shown, especially recently, that they have little idea how their newest options will interact with the older ones.
Paizo has no higher quality assurance than many 3pp (a lot of whom are made up of current or former Paizo or WotC employees anyway), and quite a bit less than some prominent 3pp developers who use lengthy playtests and frequent revision and tweaks to keep things exactly where they want them.
Yeah, some 3pp developers clearly don't give a damn about balance (lookin' at you, Rogue Genius), but that's a function of them being comprised of people who don't give a damn, not because they're 3rd party developers.
Yeah, but that's a dumb expectation. Paizo is human just like everyone else. In a very real sense, Paizo is a 3pp anyway. And were indisputably one in the past.
Adding Paizo products has the same risk, is my point. Yes, you have to read everything before you allow it. No s#!#. Again, something you need to do with Paizo releases.
It doesn't take a whole ton of free time to look at one thing, think back over a bunch of other things you should have already read before you allowed them, and figure out whether it fits or not. 30 seconds, maybe. And a "waste"? This is already your hobby. This entire game is a "waste of free time" where you're not doing anything productive.
If you don't want to allow it, just admit you can't be arsed to bother, or only want material that you're very familiar with...but you damn well better be consistent about it. Paizo shouldn't be given a free pass here.
Bad design is bad design no matter who made it. If some crappy 3pp developer makes material for Pathfinder, it doesn't suddenly become better if they make their own RPG and add identical content to it. Likewise, just because Paizo made it doesn't make it good.
Having an "expectation" that something is good based solely on the fact that their name is on the game is an expectation no DM worth their salt should have.
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Someone went through all the trouble to think it, write it, refine it, then publish it. It would be a waste and an insult to the creators not to use their creations.
I cannot fathom a reason not to use them.
Awesome Sniper Talent
A Rogue with this talent can always apply sneak damage to ranged attacks against any enemy who is threatened by one of your allies.Amazingly Awesome Sniper Talent
A Rogue with this talent gets double sneak damage on ranged attacks.
There. I've written some 3PP content, refined it, and published it here. (Hard copy: $19.99). You must now use these Talents, or you're insulting me.
Yeah, but that's a dumb expectation. Paizo is human just like everyone else. In a very real sense, Paizo is a 3pp anyway. And were indisputably one in the past.
Adding Paizo products has the same risk, is my point. Yes, you have to read everything before you allow it. No s+%%. Again, something you need to do with Paizo releases.
It doesn't take a whole ton of free time to look at one thing, think back over a bunch of other things you should have already read before you allowed them, and figure out whether it fits or not. 30 seconds, maybe. And a "waste"? This is already your hobby. This entire game is a "waste of free time" where you're not doing anything productive.
If you don't want to allow it, just admit you can't be arsed to bother, or only want material that you're very familiar with...but you damn well better be consistent about it. Paizo shouldn't be given a free pass here.
Bad design is bad design no matter who made it. If some crappy 3pp developer makes material for Pathfinder, it doesn't suddenly become better if they make their own RPG and add identical content to it. Likewise, just because Paizo made it doesn't make it good.
Having an "expectation" that something is good based solely on the fact that their name is on the game is an expectation no DM worth their salt should have.
Not having an expectation that someone will release something good or at least decent based on the fact that their name is on the game means you should seriously reconsider what you're doing buying from them at all. And frankly I didn't say Paizo should get a free pass then again their track record for not releasing content that completely breaks the game is decent, and most of the problem content has been fixed by now and usually was on sketchy rules footing to begin with.
Additionally if you can't identify the difference between a fun story telling activity involving your friends and sitting down reading rules by yourself trying to identify pitfalls then I don't even know...
I really don't feel like this is going anywhere, so whatever.
I'll just say reading is a good 50% of this game, and a solid 80% of GMing. A little more won't hurt you. No amount of slippery slope fallacy willwill make that untrue.
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Someone went through all the trouble to think it, write it, refine it, then publish it. It would be a waste and an insult to the creators not to use their creations.
I cannot fathom a reason not to use them.
Awesome Sniper Talent
A Rogue with this talent can always apply sneak damage to ranged attacks against any enemy who is threatened by one of your allies.Amazingly Awesome Sniper Talent
A Rogue with this talent gets double sneak damage on ranged attacks.There. I've written some 3PP content, refined it, and published it here. (Hard copy: $19.99). You must now use these Talents, or you're insulting me.
You posted it here, so it belongs to Paizo. You can't sell it now.
Though I guess since it's technically a Paizo product now, you can have the expectation that it plays nice with everything else.
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I just see it sitting there and gathering dust... and well, why not?
Someone went through all the trouble to think it, write it, refine it, then publish it. It would be a waste and an insult to the creators not to use their creations.
I cannot fathom a reason not to use them. If i'm not wrong the idea of playing d20 games is to grab a game setting, use its rules and books as guides and reference and then homebrew whatever else you want... not to be bound by the books. This groups even go and create stuff out of nowhere for us and people refuse to use it? It's dumb.
The only reason I can imagine for not using them is because the DM is way too lazy to make an effort and think about what he has to do to counter this new stuff. There has always been stuff created by 3rd parties that were later added as official content, why is this different? Why do DMs get scared of content from a different source?
The problem I have the 3PP is that not everyone has access to all the books the other players have. You mistakenly think balance is between the players and the GM, it's not. The GM can do whatever he wants so that will never be balanced. Balance is between players. All players should be relatively the same power level or it creates problems.
That said, I do universally allow Psionics from Dreamscared Press. The fact that it's available on d20pfsrd helps, but even it wasn't, I would still allow it. Love that stuff.
Zaetar, it's not about whether or not the GM can counter it.
Of they can. They can do whatever they want, you as a player only ever "win" because the GM allows it.
However, what the GM needs to do is try to maintain a level of balance between all players. That 3rd party version of Master Sniper breaks the internal balance between classes in a crazy way.
With the correct build it will allow you to sneak attack on every attack in a round at range while being undetectable. That's broken as hell. Sorry.
No smart GM would allow that ability if they were at all concerned about balance between players.
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And even if they do counter it, that breaks the realism of the game and feels like it's punishing the character for taking something that should have been banned in the first place. As a player, I would be much happier with a "no, I'm not allowing that" than a yes, only to find that every enemy I fight is an elemental, ooze, or is wearing heavy fortification armor.
And even if they do counter it, that breaks the realism of the game and feels like it's punishing the character for taking something that should have been banned in the first place. As a player, I would be much happier with a "no, I'm not allowing that" than a yes, only to find that every enemy I fight is an elemental, ooze, or is wearing heavy fortification armor.
You forgot Adamantine constructs with Resist Electricity 20.
With the correct build it will allow you to sneak attack on every attack in a round at range while being undetectable. That's broken as hell. Sorry.
No smart GM would allow that ability if they were at all concerned about balance between players.
Besides the "undetectable" bit, why is this an issue? Most classes with a damage booster (most of which are more accurate than any attack a Rogue can make by a long shot, and have extra goodies) can be used on every attack in a round at any range.
Edit: Okay I just looked at the Feat. "Undetectable"? Really? Is a -20 to Stealth not a significant enough penalty for you?
So for the example of "3rd party publishers not paying attention to what options are already available" the best one he can come up with is one that has issues with products released TWO YEARS AFTER its release?
I didn't know 3PP's needed to be psychic.
Master Sniper does not break internal balance. At all.
PAIZO PRODUCTS released AFTER Master Sniper break internal balance when combined with it.
Two very, very different things.
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So for the example of "3rd party publishers not paying attention to what options are already available" the best one he can come up with is one that has issues with products released TWO YEARS AFTER its release?
I didn't know 3PP's needed to be psychic.
Master Sniper does not break internal balance. At all.
PAIZO PRODUCTS released AFTER Master Sniper break internal balance when combined with it.
Two very, very different things.
That is one of the main problems with 3pp though. Paizo should and often does consider how new rules options interact with their existing rules options. But Paizo doesn't consider how 3pp are effected by their own new rules elements. So a 3pp option that was once perfectly balanced can become completely overpowered later on down the road.
And on top of that, you have the potential to combine sources from multiple 3pp publishers in ways neither publisher ever intended.
Bottom line with this 3pp argument: If isn't from DSP, it's probably not a good idea to use it.
So for the example of "3rd party publishers not paying attention to what options are already available" the best one he can come up with is one that has issues with products released TWO YEARS AFTER its release?
I didn't know 3PP's needed to be psychic.
Master Sniper does not break internal balance. At all.
PAIZO PRODUCTS released AFTER Master Sniper break internal balance when combined with it.
Two very, very different things.
That is one of the main problems with 3pp though. Paizo should and often does consider how new rules options interact with their existing rules options. But Paizo doesn't consider how 3pp are effected by their own new rules elements. So a 3pp option that was once perfectly balanced can become completely overpowered later on down the road.
And on top of that, you have the potential to combine sources from multiple 3pp publishers in ways neither publisher ever intended.
Which is why you vet things.
Some people just seem to be taking offense at my suggestion that this is part of a GMs job.
With the correct build it will allow you to sneak attack on every attack in a round at range while being undetectable. That's broken as hell. Sorry.
No smart GM would allow that ability if they were at all concerned about balance between players.
Besides the "undetectable" bit, why is this an issue? Most classes with a damage booster (most of which are more accurate than any attack a Rogue can make by a long shot, and have extra goodies) can be used on every attack in a round at any range.
Edit: Okay I just looked at the Feat. "Undetectable"? Really? Is a -20 to Stealth not a significant enough penalty for you?
As Imbicatus pointed out you can get the penalty to 0 pretty easily, and with certain feat options (Hell Cat stealth) you can be undetectable and get sneak attack on each attack, with Sniper's Goggles allowing you to remove the 30ft restriction.
Don't get me wrong, I want rogues to be good and to have decent ranged options. But allowing them to be an archer with virtually no risk to the character, while being virtually undetectable (and therefore unable to be damaged), while also dealing a large amount of damage....it's too good of a combination. There would be virtually no weakness to the character if the 3rd version of Master Sniper was allowed.
A rogue's sneak attack damage when they do actually get to use it consistently is pretty high. When my ranger had a +15 or so static modifier to damage at level 15 it was insane the amount of damage I put out. Imagine a rogue dealing +28 points of damage (average sneak attack damage at level 15) on every attack for 5 or 6 attacks (haste, rapid shot, manyshot) a round. It swings the balance too far in the opposite direction from crap to overpowered.
And to be clear, I'm not railing against all 3rd party material. Some of it is good. But you really have to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Which is why you vet things.Some people just seem to be taking offense at my suggestion that this is part of a GMs job.
And since many DMs are short on both time and money, it just isn't worth the extra work for many DMs to allow 3pp in a game.
Note: That ranger also has a cute little wolf that trips people and hits definitely not like a girl. And forgot to mention spells.
Also, how is this different from someone quick casting invisibility? How is this different from druids becoming Shamblers or Elementals.
How is this different from barbarians hitting you twice the amount you mentioned in one hit with the chance of hitting someone else, and again and again and so on.
How is this different from summoning 2 dire lions?You make it sound like you have a personal problem with 3rd party stuff. There are way more things that are more broken than this single little talent, but i dont see people discussing about it. Only because it's paizo? If they publish "broken" stuff you play it and you are okay with it. But if you see "broken" stuff from 3rd party that came before paizo you insta-banhammer it.
I still fail to see the logic here. Also What's wrong with making the PCs with being "special" as in "more powerful than others"? Isn't that the objective of a FANTASY story made for said PCs?
Invisibility, Teleport, Summoning, Portals, Shadow control, God's powers, Weapon Masters, People that talk with animals, people that turn into animals, dragons, etc... and I cant hide by my own skill and also be effective as the previous mentioned ones?
So thoughts:
1) Other things being broken are not justification to allow new broken things2) Animal companions lose effectiveness around level 10. They aren't ever really effective offensively unless you can get Boon Companion. Because a Ranger must split loot with an animal companion to enhance its combat effectiveness it makes the ranger less effective. At level 12 average is 27 for monsters. An animal companion with boon companion is likely going to have a to hit of 14 (9 from BAB and 5 from strength for a wolf) without any gear to help him. That's a 35% chance to hit. While good at low levels they honestly just don't scale enough to remain useful unless you're willing to GIMP yourself.
3) Spell, a ranger has spells, it's true. And for the most part none of them great. The only spell really worth taking is Instant Enemy. When I played a ranger archer there were no really game changing spells aside from that. Anything else was a "Hey, I can do this so the wizard doesn't have to get me around this inconvenient obstacle".
4) Quickened invisibility isn't at all worth it. Why? Because Invisibility breaks after the first attack. Quickened Greater Invisibility would work, but also requires an 8th level spell or a Rod of Quicken Spell, which is nearly 40,000 gold and only 3 uses per day.
5) Barbarians are in the fray being attacked in return for the damage they deal out.
6) Summons, cannot be done all day.
7) Don't have a problem with all 3rd party stuff, just the stuff that is imbalanced. In the same way I have a problem with all material that is horribly imbalanced. However, players of the game have a reasonable expectation of most of material from the "core" Paizo books being allowed and you get a lot of push back if you try to remove it, in my experience.
8) I have tons of problems with Paizo published material and ban many things. I have an extensive list of rules for how I've changed the game, that includes lots of nerfs to spell casters.
9) Yes PCs should grow into being more powerful than anyone else they encounter (for the most part). The problem is making sure that the power level between players doesn't get too imbalanced where some players end up being sidekicks to others.
10) I get the feeling that you care way too much about my opinion about whether it should be allowed. Ultimately I don't get to make the decision your GM does. Unless your GM is going to come here and look for opinions it wont really matter what I think.
More thoughts later, have to get back to work.