So I am creating a hunter at what lvl shoul di swap out of the class and go somewhere else, and what else would you recommend?
Pathfinder rewards focus.
Only time to ever dip is if the payoff is more than what you would get in the end.
The hunter class is very strong and not one that I would dip out of.
That all depends on your end goal. I don't recommend it with out a plan.
Four levels of Fighter for feats/BAB MIGHT be worth it if you don't care about spellcasting... (Just take Boon Companion to keep your animal companion at your level).
As someone playing a Hunter, I highly recommend just sticking to the class, so much of the progression is tied to the base class that dipping isn't usually worth it...
Hunter peaks at 8th, IMHO. I wouldn't swap out before then unless it's pressing (like Wild Child Brawler or Swashbuckler so you can get Combat Expertise/Pack Flanking with a low Int.)
The real question is where do you expect your game to go after that?
If you're going to late teens/20th, then losing spellcasting progression will hurt.
If you know you're likely to stop between 12-14th, then Brawler, Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, or Fighter could all be good, probably with Boon Companion. 4 levels of Holy Tactician paladin could be huge if you've got the Cha to back it up.
Mammoth Rider looks awesome if you think you can get away with riding around a Huge dinosaur in your adventures.
If you were planning to dip into hunter, that's a different story. Hunter is the only class that grants you evasion in its first level (you need to kill your animal companion to do so, you monster). The Animal Focus is an incredibly versatile bonus that can be used all day if your fuzzy buddy is dead. You could get any one of: +2 enhancement to a physical stat (not worth it), or a +4 to perception, swim, climb, acrobatics, or stealth, +2 to attacks of opportunity, +5 speed, darkvision, scent, or evasion.
All say hunter is so potent...he is nice, but not much more than others.
Its a perfect lvl 3 dip for a cavalier but havent seen a super full hunter build
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Halfing Outrider Hunter, Mounted Teamwork Machine.
Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 9 (+str @4, +Wis@8)
Get Menacing AoMF 4k/Gauntlet 8k for another +2 while mounted or flanking.
Outflank (hunter bonus@2), Alertness while mounted if Bodyguard AC.
Dirty Fighting counts as Int 13, Wis 13, Combat Expertise, and IUS for combat/maneuver feats.
Pack Flanking (the FAQ made it a combat feat so Dirty Fighting pre-req)
Escape Route: No AoOs while adjacent or mounted for you or mounts movement
Imp Spell Sharing (needed for bodyguard AC archetype)
Lookout: Both act in surprise if one can (with Bodyguard AC after 3rd level this means AC always gets a move and standard in the surprise round, and you get to act, move and standard if you have good perception)
Tandem Trip: (doesn't need imp trip) Roll twice and take better on trip attempts (mostly for AC free trip on bites)
Stealth Synergy: both roll and use highest
Combat Reflexes
Mounted Combat
Ride by Attack
1st level: HUN: Animal Focus, Dirty Fighting(counts as int 13 and expertise for combat/maneuver feats), get an additional +2 on maneuvers while flanking (or when mounted after level 3 from Pack Flanking)
2nd level: HUN: Outflank (bonus hunter 2): +4 flanking instead of +2
3rd level: HUN: Escape Route: no AoOs for moving on mount, Pack Flanking (Always flanking while mounted/adjacent to AC). Now you can move anywhere on the battlefield and not provoke both you and mount, while getting full flanking.
4th level: HUN: 2nd level spells, Barkskin is good here.
5th level: HUN: Share Spells (Teamwork) ;If not using the Bodyguard AC(you should) Combat Reflexes
-----6th through 13th level your feats can be fit to game style, you want these 4, but the order is up to you-----
6th level-13th level: HUN: Combat Reflexes, Tandem Trip, Lookout, Stealth Synergy, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Imp Critical
Your AC should be a Bodyguard archetype. Get whatever light Barding you like, the bonuses you are stacking up should be enough to offset any penalties. Darkleaf Hides and Mithral Chain is what you are working towards.
Start with a Wolf Animal Companion for trip attack, take Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard as his 1st 2 feats. Change to small cat at level 5 after small cat becomes medium size for 2 claws and a bite with trip. Also gets the 3rd AC feat then so you can have Weapon Finesse. Should also have Agile AOMF by then. You can use the Bodyguard archetype for your AC, which gives up sharing spells, by taking Spell Sharing Teamwork feat, which also buffs both you and mount at same time. You lose Evasion with the Bodyguard AC, but give it back with Animal Focus (Mouse).
Later, might want to have the AC take the Int boost and take Dirty Fighting as well, for another +2 to trips and ability to take style feats (Dragon is good to charge through allies). Small cat will have a Wis of 12, so can take most base styles.
Best in a campaign with more grounded enemies, but effective once you can Airwalk as well for flying times.
You and mount can move anywhere on the battlefield with no AoOs after level 3, get a +4 to hit (+6 if you get a menacing weapon) after level 3, get AoOs on a crit that either makes. You should get an Agile AOMF(4k) for the AC ASAP after you change to a cat, as it will have a dex of 20+. If anyone attacks you your AC makes a DC 10 attack roll to add 4 to your AC. If you take the bodyguard feat yourself (with Helpful Halfling Trait) you add 6 to his.
With spells like Lead Blades, Strongjaw, Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon, Barkskin, etc., you should be solid on the line.
That's as far as I built, since I usually don't ever get past that level.
If you combine Boon Companion with Magical Knack (Hunter), so you don't sacrifice either casting progression, or your Companion's progession, there are probably some worthwhile dips. It depends on where they occur. 3/4 caster and BAB progressions are such that even a level dip may have a big impact, as you're really waiting for iterative attacks and higher level spells to open up, and you don't really want to wait for those as you're behind the full-progression characters on either side of the equation, and they diminish in effectiveness rapidly.
With any 'hybrid' or 3/4 BAB class, the safest dips are into full BAB classes, given the safeguards above. A 1 or 2-level dip is often where the 'meat' of the class abilities lie and, even if they have limited scaling or uses per day due to level, can still synergise well with your main class, if done thoughtfully. Obvious candidates would include any Archetype from a class that is based around Wisdom as a caster or pool stat, and either STR or DEX as a combat stat, whatever your base build might be.
As such, here are some things to think about:
Maneuver Master (Monk Archetype):
The big thing about MM's is that they can, by the nature of Combat Maneuvers, use weapons, and their Flurry is not limited in the way other Flurry abilities are (unarmed/bows/thrown weapons).
Gunslinger: I haven't considered this much, but it's possibly viable on a limited scale, with the right feats.
Besides this, full BAB Archetypes of Fighter, Slayer, Cavalier, and Barbarian could all be useful. Think about your concept, play style, combat style, and out-of-combat abilities.
The Hunter isn't really about you; it is, more than any other class, a 'pet class' in the truest sense (even more so than a Summoner); it's all about how you and your full-on, awesome Animal Companion deal with things together, and choosing and developing your A.C. is where the 'magic' is; if you lose A.C. progression, you sabotage yourself, as A.C.'s don't progress as fast as PC's.
i see very few choose a flyer animal , why ?
yes, they do a bit less damage - but a flying mount ALL the time - is great!
also, small Vs medium hunter ? undersized mount open some options BUT - it might look ridiculous ...
i think a hunter is a great melee non damaging class. focusing on debuff.
mount can learn 1 maneuver like grt bull rush, grapple etc - and add effects with skirmisher tricks.
even as a small hunter - the to hit is good enough to add a combo of shaken, dirty tricks, dazzle and more effects.
with always on flanks and coordinating maneuvers the dirty trick CMB can be decent, spells add even more.
so, a normal round would be :
you attack , that trigger free shaken (cornogon smash) & dazzle (dancing spear) or blink with dirty trick .
pet either entangle (trick) + attack \ grab\trip \ bull rush (that provokes).
the foe is humpered really bad, leaving him to the grace of the rest of the party.
Actually melee hunters can dish out a great deal of damage. The best path for melee hunter is two-hander with a high crit weapon... Focus on Teamwork feats that maximizes your interactions with your AnC. Obviously Pack Flanking with Outflank is a must. Then work on getting a Menacing AoMF so that your AnC is now always providing you with a +6 bonus to hit. Pick up Combat Relfexes and focus on AoO through Outflank and Wounded Paw Gambit.
My Self wrote: If you were planning to dip into hunter, that's a different story. Hunter is the only class that grants you evasion in its first level (you need to kill your animal companion to do so, you monster). The Animal Focus is an incredibly versatile bonus that can be used all day if your fuzzy buddy is dead. You could get any one of: +2 enhancement to a physical stat (not worth it), or a +4 to perception, swim, climb, acrobatics, or stealth, +2 to attacks of opportunity, +5 speed, darkvision, scent, or evasion. Or you could dip feral hunter :-)
I'm sorry... Broken Wing Gambit... Not Wounded Paw (that's the one that deals with ranged attacks).
You can't qualify for pack flanking with dirty fighting, unfortunately. Only improved maneuver and feats that require improved maneuver feats. Brawler or swashbuckler dip is the only good option if you don't have the int.
Wild Child Brawler is a sweet 1 level dip for a reach hunter. Qualify for pack flanking without needing 13 int(now that it's a combat feat at least), Martial flexibility 4 minutes/day, full BAB, no loss of animal companion progression, Improved unarmed strike so threaten within 5'. The only down side is a -1 will saves every third level and delayed spell casting. You are a melee monster, so you really don't miss the lost caster level.
With Outflank, Meanacing AOMF and pack flanking you should be attacking from flank nearly all the time at +6 to hit, so a dip into another 3/4 BAB class isn't as painful or risky as it could be.
Small small cat is surprisingly effective. Grab weapon finesse you will have 3 attacks at +7 to hit at level 1, and first few levels dealing huge amounts of damage means nothing if you can't hit. You can plink away for more damage than with a strength beastie that is usually sitting on a +2/+3 to a single attack. You'll have many more opportunities to trip than a wolf simply by hitting more often, so even though it's a lot harder to successfully trip, you are not as far behind as you'd think.
Martial flexibility is also handy if you're mounted, so you have something to use your move action on the turn your mount moves in.
If you don't mind losing the nature flavor abilities, which are pretty bad, the Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor is a better Hunter than the Hunter class.
Calth wrote: If you don't mind losing the nature flavor abilities, which are pretty bad, the Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor is a better Hunter than the Hunter class. If you like the nature abilities, the Druid is also a better Hunter than the Hunter class.
I really can't see much reason to be a hunter unless the GM has either banned druids or handwaves handle animal tricks and just lets you play your companion as an extension of your character.
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Unless your GM runs your AC (their option, but most don't because they are busy with everything else), I don't understand why everyone is so down on Handle Animal. Most AC using characters start with a +8, (1 rank, +3 class skill, +4 Wild Empathy), so long as you don't dump Cha it's easy. Only on a 1 does it not do what it has been taught with tricks, a 3 after it takes damage the first time. By level 3 that doesn't even matter, as skill checks don't fail on a 1 so long as you have the 12 total.
Handle Animal tricks are free actions for ones known, and short targeting commands are as well, so an AC is pretty much an extension of your character once it knows Attack x2, Flank, and Guard.
If you spend the increase on Int to 3, it basically is another character who is very simple minded and instinctive.
Hunter is equal to druid, with the early access to the ranger spell list making them better melee but no wildshape.
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