|
I kinda consider it to be a somewhat overdone trope to have the party get hold of an artifact, so I'm curious if there's any APs that don't have artifacts in them in some form.
Have only read/played a few APs (Crimson Throne, Serpent's Skull, Shattered Star, Reign of Winter) and they all involve artifacts in some form. So are there any without artifacts?
|
Artifacts are just very powerful magic items and they're pretty iconic to the fantasy genre. I'm not aware of any APs that include zero Artifatcs. On the other hand, they typically aren't central to the storyline or as powerful as the One Ring or Excalibur. If, they usually just perform some weird/powerful function that doesn't fit with most other magic items. Calling the Artifacts also gives the GM some additional latitude to handle them differently than a typical magic item.
If you dislike them, then remove them from whatever AP you're playing (and/or replace them with something less powerful).
-Skeld
|
In addition to Skeld's points, Pathfinder categorizes as 'lesser artifacts' many things which were simply 'magic items' in earlier editions. Thus, artifacts are more 'commonplace' in Pathfinder... a Staff of the Magi is an artifact, rather than just a particularly expensive magic item. That increase in frequency makes the likelihood of not running in to even a single artifact in the course of an entire campaign unlikely.
|
|
If you dislike them, then remove them from whatever AP you're playing (and/or replace them with something less powerful).
Some seem a little hard to remove, at least without significant work on the part of the GM. Removing the sword from part 3 of Serpent's Skull is easy. Removing Serithtial from Crimson Throne requires a bit of a rewrite (why go to Scarwall?). Removing Baba Yaga's hut from Reign of Winter ...
|
|
If you dislike them, then remove them from whatever AP you're playing (and/or replace them with something less powerful).Some seem a little hard to remove, at least without significant work on the part of the GM. Removing the sword from part 3 of Serpent's Skull is easy. Removing Serithtial from Crimson Throne requires a bit of a rewrite (why go to Scarwall?). Removing Baba Yaga's hut from Reign of Winter ...
That's kinda the thing about Artifacts, they fall into one of two categories: 1) they're just powerful items (that need an excuse to be hard to craft/buy/sell/destroy), or 2) they're just plot devices.
Serithial, for example, is just a reason for the PCs to go to Scarwall. Most of the Artifacts you encounter in APs are more like the Revelation quill from RotRL; a neat, semi-unique item that does something kinda cool, but won't break the campaign if you don't have it or use it.
-Skeld
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be honest, CotCT would probably do better without the trip away from Korvosa... But of course, that is a serious rewrite.
Council of Thieves would be my guess for a "no artifact" AP (or at least no artifacts that the PCs get to use), since CoT's at a lower power level than the rest of the APs.
But I've never read it, so I could easily be wrong.
It does have an essential artifact, actually. :-D
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be honest, CotCT would probably do better without the trip away from Korvosa... But of course, that is a serious rewrite.
My only serious beef with my favorite AP: Urban revolution? Heck with that, time to go traipse about the Cinderlands!
It's not even like those parts are bad (I mean... my avatar is the Cinderlander...), they just feel like a really abrupt curveball.
Both Batman and the Dread Pirate Roberts had to leave the people and city they loved before they had the capability to cause change.
Personally I love Pathfinder's take on it, and probably wouldn't change it.
Jade Regent has artefact which are story props, they can all be omitted or re-classified as powerful items.
Creative Director
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Someone asked about this topic over on my "ask James" thread, likely after seeing this thread. Artifacts in our adventures are indeed more common (yet still rare overall) than they were in the early days of the game, but that's both intentional and unavoidable. My (lengthy) post on the topic is copied below for folks to see where my headspace is at on this topic (and thus why you see artifacts in all Adventure Paths)...
Furthermore, artifacts do things that magic items normally can't do. And since they exist outside of the whole "Use gold piece value to balance when and where a magic item appears in a campaign," you can include an artifact to accomplish ANY plot element you want without worrying about how doing something like including a high gp magic item in a low-level adventure might disrupt the entire campaign if the PCs decide to just sell the thing.
And artifacts are an incredible way to incorporate story elements and history into an adventure.
And perhaps MOST IMPORTANTLY... In a game where the standard magic items can be bought and sold at stores and/or created by anyone who takes the right feat, artifacts serve a very necessary purpose of being actual treasure that a party feels good about finding. You can't create an artifact. You can't buy it. And thus, it's something worth questing for. Something worth bragging about. Something to be proud of finding or recovering. If you fight a powerful dragon and manage to end its 200 year reign of terror, but then it's entire treasure horde is not only items you can just buy at a store or make yourself, or WORSE is just a bunch of magic items that the players will just sell to cash out and buy other items they'd prefer... that's incredibly unrewarding from a story viewpoint. An artifact in a dragon stash like that ensures that at least that ONE item is something the PCs can't just buy or make. It's at least ONE item that the PCs won't be able to just sell. And it's at least ONE item that the players can look back on as proof that their adventure was suitably epic.
I think that people who hold back on using artifacts in games are doing their games a great disservice as a result. Unless you're playing a game where the standard magic items ARE very rare, can't be crafted by PCs, and can't be bought in stores (in which case, mechanically speaking, standard items are artifacts in all but name), artifacts add the wonder and magic to the game. And the more you play the game, the more important having those elements in your game becomes.
Taking Lord of the Rings as an example... the one ring is but one artifact that plays a role in that story. There's the potent crystal balls, some swords, and arguably other things as well, all in what is essentially one Adventure Path. Had Tolken been producing something on the scale of the Lord of the Rings trilogy twice a year, I suspect that we'd see a fair amount of artifacts in those stories as well.
In any event, Golarion is not a low-magic setting. Artifacts exist in the setting for many reasons, but a big one is that they play the role of the actual "magic" items that move and shake the world, that adventurers quest for, and that make a difference. In a world or game that is low magic or no magic, then yes, the amount of artifacts in a typical AP would absolutely be overkill, but that's not Golarion.
The use of artifacts and the frequency in which they appear in our adventures is 100% and completely intentional.
(REMEMBER: In the 1st edition of the game, magic items were NOT balanced by gp values, and there really wasn't an easily quantified way for player characters to buy or create them. In that earlier version of the game, your magic item choices were pretty much ENTIRELY determined by what you found while adventuring, and in a game like that, artifacts showing up more often doesn't make sense. As a result, artifacts WERE more rare in 1st edition and 2nd edition D&D. Once 3rd edition D&D changed forever how magic items interact with player characters, the need for more commonly encountered artifacts as a method to recapture the wonder of finding something you can't buy or can't make increased significantly. The game has changed over the 30+ years it's been out, and gamers who want to play these newer versions of the games need to change their expectations as a result.)
|
|
Since artifacts seem to be core to APs (and intentionally so based on James' answer), I guess I should change my question then to something along the lines of 'which APs are artifacts most relevant to and which ones are they least relevant to?'. Basically, which ones could you remove the artifacts from with minimal work?
I imagine there's some sort of (somewhat subjective) scale that the APs lay on based on the importance of artifacts to that AP. On one side of the scale are the APs where the artifacts are so crucial that removing them would mean having to basically write an entirely new AP. Eg. Shattered Star is all about artifacts and Reign of Winter minus the hut just doesn't make much sense. What APs are on the other end of the scale?
Any sort of list would be greatly appreciated!
Don't get me wrong. While I do feel that the artifact trope is a little overused I do quite enjoy the APs as is. Crimson Throne is pure awesome and I'm quite enjoying playing through the very artifact heavy Shattered Star at the moment.
Edit: A very quick attempt at quantifying the scale:
5 - the story just doesn't make sense without the artifacts
4 - the artifacts are a key part of the plot
3 - the artifacts play an important role, but could potentially be removed
2 - the artifacts can be removed with a bit of work
1 - removing the artifacts is rather simple
Strictly speaking, you can create artifacts if you are using the Mythic rules. Although I must admit I didn't find the abilities granted worth taking that mythic ability.
|
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And that's the rub... artifacts more than ANY other magical item are generally VERY tied to the story, and often ARE the story. From my viewpoint, looking at how I prefer to utilize artifacts in an adventure, they'll mostly edge toward a 5 on your scale, and very rarely edge toward a 1. It certainly IS subjective.
Furthermore, when we put artifacts into an AP, we do try to make the surrounding adventure react as appropriate, and in so doing, don't significantly unbalance the game play itself. In such cases, removing artifacts from an AP will be a LOT more work than initially appears, since you'll end up having to rebuild and rewrite encounters for game-play balance reasons from that point on.
|
I think Second Darkness may not have any in it?
I've managed to recall or look up artifacts in every other one, but I can't think of any from it. There's at least one intelligent item, and I think the elf queen technically owns an artifact (in a statblock in a product that isn't part of the AP), but there may not be any artifacts in Second Darkness.
|
Creative Director
|
I think Second Darkness may not have any in it?
I've managed to recall or look up artifacts in every other one, but I can't think of any from it. There's at least one intelligent item, and I think the elf queen technically owns an artifact (in a statblock in a product that isn't part of the AP), but there may not be any artifacts in Second Darkness.
The maleficus spike comes to mind off the top of my head. I"m pretty sure there are a few others.
Now that I think about it are there any APs that do not have any artifacts and if so what are they?
All have artifacts.
It's just how it is and how it will be.
I personally am a big fan of how it's done, yet another improvement of previous editions.
I remember in the days of AD&D 2E... depending on the breaks, if you had a +2 weapon by 7th level, you were a friggin' hoss.
In this era of "heck with it, I'll make my own!" the use of artifacts does lend some more oomph to the proceedings... but I'm weird. The second an item, any item, has a name and isn't just "Frost Longsword +1", I'm invested. So if these unnamed trinkets proliferate, a few named heavy hitters are quite enjoyable.
IMO, Paizo has been judicious (for the most part*) on placing artifacts in an AP. They are normally either essential "McGuffin" items needed to face specific foes (often the BBEG, but sometimes an intermediary boss) or serve as a plot device to establish conditions/restrictions that would otherwise be extremely difficult/impossible.
One of the "benefits" of an artifact is that they can have a plot purpose of their own. This allows the GM to give something to the PCs that is substantially overpowered (compared to items normally available at that WBL) and either make most of that power initally unusable (i.e., the item "grows" as the PCs gain levels/complete certain triggering events) or remove the item (destroyed, negated, or simply disappears) after it's used for it's central plot purpose.
*- Wrath of the Righteous contains a lot of artifacts, some of which have little or no connection to the plot; however, some of that is because not all background elements are going to be used by all parties.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wish they would do a campaign setting neutral hardcover book of artifacts so we could get stats for items from real world myth, folklore, movies, etc. like Excalibur, Thor's Hammer, Muramasa, Aegis, etc.
I wish they would do a campaign setting neutral hardcover book of artifacts so we could get stats for items from real world myth, folklore, movies, etc. like Excalibur, Thor's Hammer, Muramasa, Aegis, etc.
That is definitely not the way Paizo makes books, so a 3PP would have to fill that niche. Any Paizo artifacts will be Golarion specific, and almost all will come out of specific AP needs. Or possibly hooks for future adventures.
Council of Thieves would be my guess for a "no artifact" AP (or at least no artifacts that the PCs get to use), since CoT's at a lower power level than the rest of the APs.
But I've never read it, so I could easily be wrong.
Council of Thieves very definitely has artifacts in them.
Personally, I really like artifacts in long campaigns because they provide PCs with something unique and lasting from their adventures that differentiates that adventure from any other. Non-artifact magic items can always be recreated or (in some campaigns) bought, but gaining an artifact is usually unique to a specific adventure and often becomes an iconic part of the character's story.
The same holds true of intelligent items as well, but I imagine folks who have objections to artifacts would find intelligent items to hit on most of those same problems.
Does Skull and Shackles have any artifacts? Can't remember any in the first 4 books.
I'll second the idea that Wrath doesn't need any of the artifacts in it. Would be very playable without them.
I'll second the idea that Wrath doesn't need any of the artifacts in it. Would be very playable without them.
I'm in Book 3 of Wrath of the Righteous right now, and I'm pretty sure I've taken out the artifact(s) that were slated to pop up in the modules, so I can confirm that at least the first half works fine without them.
Then again, my campaign still has artifacts, since the PCs have enough mythic tiers to create their own now.
Does Skull and Shackles have any artifacts? Can't remember any in the first 4 books.
I'll second the idea that Wrath doesn't need any of the artifacts in it. Would be very playable without them.
And the Dreamstone which is artifact-y. Book 4.