Now that Weapon Master's book is out, Myrmidarch Magus vmc Fighter for a heavy melee type?

[Major_Blackhart]

What's everyone's opinion on this idea? Hell, would the weapon training even stack at this point or is it more of a waste? With the new stuff from the weapon master's book, what would be a good variant multiclass for Myrmidarch now?

[Gisher]

They do stack.

[Major_Blackhart]

So it's possible to get weapon training +5?

[Dave Justus]

Stacking from Multiclass and stacking from VMC isn't at all the same thing.

I not as sure if they would stack, although I can't point to a reason why.

In any event, I don't think you can get Weapon Training V by those rules, because Weapon Training V doesn't exist, even though we can easy figure out what it would be.

[Calth]

Dave Justus wrote:

Stacking from Multiclass and stacking from VMC isn't at all the same thing.

I not as sure if they would stack, although I can't point to a reason why.

In any event, I don't think you can get Weapon Training V by those rules, because Weapon Training V doesn't exist, even though we can easy figure out what it would be.

Stacking from variant multiclassing and multiclassing are the same. VMC doesnt give feats, it gives you an alternate progression scheme where you gain fewer feats and gain class features at set points. So you gain the exact same class features of your secondary class as class features.

And to the original question, you might be better off taking the advanced weapon training feat multiple times than VMCing.

[Sekkan]

The Weapon Master archetype gets up to V (single weapon, and you have to use the feat).

[Gisher]

Sorry my previous response was so brief. I got distracted by Real Life™ stuff. Here are some rules to consider.

Pathfinder Unchained (Variant Multiclassing, p. 88) wrote:

CORE CLASSES

The following secondary class features are based on features of the classes found in the Core Rulebook.

So unless a change is mentioned we should assume that the secondary class features work the same way as the features of the original classes. There are plenty of VMC abilities that do work differently than their CRB counterparts, but those abilities specifically state the ways in which they differ.

Pathfinder Unchained (Variant Multiclassing, p. 89) wrote:

Fighter

A character who chooses fighter as his secondary class gains the following secondary class features.
...
Weapon Training 1: At 11th level, he gains weapon training 1.
...
Weapon Training 2: At 19th level, he gains weapon training 2.

So a character with VMC Fighter gains two instances of weapon training. There is no mention of any differences between this ability and the CRB version so we should assume that it acts the same way.

FAQ wrote:

Magus, Myrmidarch: Do my weapon training and armor training abilities stack if I multiclass into fighter?

Yes.
...

Since Myrmidarch weapon training and Fighter weapon training stack, and VMC Fighter weapon training works the same way as Fighter weapon training, then Myrmidarch weapon training and VMC Fighter weapon training will stack.

The Myrmidarch gets three instances of weapon training, and VMC Fighter grants two more so altogether that would be five. This raises the question of whether it is possible to have five instances of weapon training. After all, Fighters only get four. Some class abilities can't be stacked beyond a certain point because they have language specifying a maximum value. The Magus' Arcane Pool for example achieves "a maximum of +5 at 17th level." Weapon Training doesn't have any such language, so it isn't limited to a specific number of instances.

And as mentioned, we do have at least one case where an archetype can achieve weapon training 5.

Advanced Player's Guide (Weapon Master archetype) wrote:

Weapon Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd. This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Note that the same reasoning would apply to Armor Training.

[Calth]

Just a note, "Weapon Master Weapon Training" is not actually "Fighter Weapon Training" as it does not meet the requirements of the archetype replacement FAQ. That's why the new companion had to add an explicit exception letting that archetype take and benefit from the advanced weapon training feat.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Calth wrote:

Just a note, "Weapon Master Weapon Training" is not actually "Fighter Weapon Training" as it does not meet the requirements of the archetype replacement FAQ. That's why the new companion had to add an explicit exception letting that archetype take and benefit from the advanced weapon training feat.

I DID think it would be a shame if Weapon Master wasn't a good option for a player excited by options in the Weapon Master's Handbook. :D

[Calth]

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

Calth wrote:

Just a note, "Weapon Master Weapon Training" is not actually "Fighter Weapon Training" as it does not meet the requirements of the archetype replacement FAQ. That's why the new companion had to add an explicit exception letting that archetype take and benefit from the advanced weapon training feat.

I DID think it would be a shame if Weapon Master wasn't a good option for a player excited by options in the Weapon Master's Handbook. :D

Yeah, always found it funny that Weapon Masters cant benefit from anything that boosts weapon training.

[Kaouse]

Calth wrote:

Just a note, "Weapon Master Weapon Training" is not actually "Fighter Weapon Training" as it does not meet the requirements of the archetype replacement FAQ. That's why the new companion had to add an explicit exception letting that archetype take and benefit from the advanced weapon training feat.

I know this comes from an FAQ, but that's an incredibly stupid semantic argument that doesn't even make sense, considering Gloves of Dueling don't mention "Fighter" Weapon Training, only "Weapon Training."

Gloves of Dueling wrote:

These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

So yeah, Weapon Master Fighters, and even Swashbucklers, can totally use the item.

[Skylancer4]

Kaouse wrote:

Calth wrote:

Just a note, "Weapon Master Weapon Training" is not actually "Fighter Weapon Training" as it does not meet the requirements of the archetype replacement FAQ. That's why the new companion had to add an explicit exception letting that archetype take and benefit from the advanced weapon training feat.

I know this comes from an FAQ, but that's an incredibly stupid semantic argument that doesn't even make sense, considering Gloves of Dueling don't mention "Fighter" Weapon Training, only "Weapon Training."

Gloves of Dueling wrote:

These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

So yeah, Weapon Master Fighters, and even Swashbucklers, can totally use the item.

Rules decisions pretty much always come down to semantics...

[CWheezy]

Magus feats are extremely valuable, I wouldn't give them up for such minor bonuses.

[Calth]

Kaouse wrote:

Calth wrote:

Just a note, "Weapon Master Weapon Training" is not actually "Fighter Weapon Training" as it does not meet the requirements of the archetype replacement FAQ. That's why the new companion had to add an explicit exception letting that archetype take and benefit from the advanced weapon training feat.

I know this comes from an FAQ, but that's an incredibly stupid semantic argument that doesn't even make sense, considering Gloves of Dueling don't mention "Fighter" Weapon Training, only "Weapon Training."

Gloves of Dueling wrote:

These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

So yeah, Weapon Master Fighters, and even Swashbucklers, can totally use the item.

If by semantics you mean the words used to make the rule, then sure, its a semantics argument.

[Gisher]

Okay, I'm lost. What is the FAQ that prevents Weapon Masters from using Gloves of Dueling?

[Calth]

Gisher wrote:

Okay, I'm lost. What is the FAQ that prevents Weapon Masters from using Gloves of Dueling?

This one.. Weapon Master Weapon Training doesn't select a weapon group, so it isn't fighter weapon training. It functions identically to Expert Archer, which is specifically called out to not work. It's also replacing armor training, so that's a second reason it doesn't work by the FAQ, but a more minor one.

[Sekkan]

Except that the feat has an explicit call out for the archetype, allowing them to take it, but does not then say anything like "and their weapon training counts as weapon training" and Gloves of Dueling only says that if the PC has the weapon training class feature, not if they have the fighter weapon training class feature. Those two things to me say that the archetype, the gloves, and the feat all work together.

[Paulicus]

It's something a lot of GMs would probably allow to work, though. One of those example of silly-RAW (or silly-FAQ).

Silly Pathfinder.

[Calth]

Sekkan wrote:

Except that the feat has an explicit call out for the archetype, allowing them to take it, but does not then say anything like "and their weapon training counts as weapon training" and Gloves of Dueling only says that if the PC has the weapon training class feature, not if they have the fighter weapon training class feature. Those two things to me say that the archetype, the gloves, and the feat all work together.

I know the feat works with Weapon Master fighter, because Owen wrote in exemptions to the normal rules. And there is an equivalent to "and their weapon training counts" :

The benefits of a weapon master’s
advanced weapon training options apply only to his
selected weapon rather than all weapons in the same
fighter weapon group, and he can’t select the weapon
specialist advanced weapon training option.

This tells you how to adjust the feat to work with a different class feature. But RAW, and RAI (at least from an overall standpoint, it is quite possible that Weapon Master is badly written, as it was one of the first archetypes and some of the early ones have major issues), abilities like Weapon Master Weapon Training do not count as the fighter weapon training feature for things like Gloves of Dueling, or Advanced Weapon Training (without the specific exemptions as presented in the feat).

I mean, its almost a tautology. If the feature has a mechanic that would allow an advanced weapon training swap, its fighter weapon training. If it doesn't, its not fighter weapon training.

[Sekkan]

Except that, by the FAQ, the feat would have no effect as the Weapon Master would then have no "Weapon Training modifier" to base anything off of. The exemption noted does not state that the modifier applies, just that the benefits (if any) only work on the chosen weapon.

Either the Weapon Master has Weapon Training or not. Also, the class feature referred to is just Weapon Training, not Fighter Weapon Training. There is no class feature called "Fighter Weapon Training", and such a class feature would not work with the gloves or this feat. A Weapon Master is a Fighter with a class feature called Weapon Training.

I am not arguing that they have the ability to get the swap outs like a normal fighter (they clearly don't) or that they have the same weapon training as said normal fighter. Just that they are a fighter with a class feature named weapon training, and as such meet all requirements for the Gloves of Dueling (which only specifies "weapon training") and the benefits of the feat. I see nothing in the FAQ that would preclude that.

Also, please note that I am posting after working on a night off (shift 6 of 5) and while rather ticked (because of that). Any incoherency or anger should be attributed to that and not the topic at hand or any posters.

[Kurald Galain]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

What's everyone's opinion on this idea? Hell, would the weapon training even stack at this point or is it more of a waste? With the new stuff from the weapon master's book, what would be a good variant multiclass for Myrmidarch now?

Even with this, Myrmidarch is still a pretty bad archetype (because of diminished spellcasting, and that it can't do spell combat with ranged attacks, and that ranged spellstrike only works with spells that were already ranged).

If you want a ranged Magus, try for Card Caster or Eldritch Archer instead.