you mean benefits like their class features?
So wizards are unduly given use of their class features or what
And some classes are denied the benefits of their class features by this set up.
Anything buff focused like bards. Rogues have no one to flank with. Debuffers that work best to set up for tohers, like witches (mostly worrying about the fact that they need a turn to evil eye to tank saves, and then a round to kill with hexes/spells, when normally the thing would be killed the same turn by an allied wizard/sorcerer with SoD; ie- their action economy is nowhere as good alone).
So yes, this set up is not exactly "fair". So I think you will just have to get by with you other couple dozen level 9 spells. Oh how will you ever manage? The injustice. The tragedy.
Not to mention how much a Master Summoner benefits from a "buffing period". :P
In answer to the thread question: The guy who goes into the kitchen and holds the GM's milk hostage.
Going underground is technically legal within the rules. Although cheesy, it works. You can only go 50ft down and 200 ft up otherwise it counts as leaving the arena though.
The arena is 1 sq mile.
Yes. Dragons can not be summoned into the arena. As Darksol said only summon monster 1-9 and Eidolons work.
The ground is grass and there are a bunch of trees. Like a forest
In addition there are small rivers and streams in the arena. The deepest being only a few feet.
And there is no possible escape from the arena.
@Mathius although you could earth glide down and make a hallow, do not forget that Monks have a feather fall ability also.
So master summoners don't get to play anyway. Gate is kinda their big spell.
In answer to the thread question: The guy who goes into the kitchen and holds the GM's milk hostage.
+1 lol
Maybe everyone should wait until you are done defining the rules and arena before offering up their thoughts. Right now things are changing fairly quickly.
Actually people are just ignoring the rules so I keep on I am not actually changing the rules
plz read the previous posts before posting
Thank you.
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Well, it's still not that shameful, because it's just a game and meanwhile more than 3.5 citizens of the USA experience homelessness every year.
This has been your biannual perspective check, Paizo forums. See you in like three years or whatever.
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I do so completely love how this thread has spiraled out of control!!!
Real talk, this is a mindset I see in the pathfinder forums a lot, and it makes me pretty sad.
Instead of freaking out at anzyr and trying to say his build isn't serious(what?), maybe you should hold the developers to a higher standard and actually have them fix their broken game. 3.5 was just as broken, and the pathfinder devs have done basically nothing to fix that. Its actually more shameful IMO, because broken s$%+ like this was well known for many years, and they still did nothing.
While that is true to some extent (simulacrum is general has problems), I can also question the extent that developers should cross reference everything they plan to produce versus every single spell and ability they have ever released over the years.
The fact that mythic rules intersect VERY wonkily with the rules of spells based off HD at times is one of the problems of this build. Honestly, I would have each mythic tier count as 3 HD for some effects like this (so that drakaina would be 50 HD, or 'oh no you don't' range; it would also mean that the clone couldn't make demigods like this). At some point, one has to admit that the combination of options are silly and disruptive of play.
Personally, I tend to be conservative and stick to the rules... but something this blatant is a clear place for GMs to step in and adjudicate.
At some point, based off of the berth of material they have released, I find it hard for a company to release anything new and exciting without some ability providing loop holes for it to be exploited FAR out of what they intended. If you want to see how they write when they are consciously trying to avoid exploitation, look at how defensively written the errata for slashing grace is. They had to put in a half dozen different ways to say 'no TWF stuff'.
Why? Because I've personally seen the rules board threads about dervish dance where the 'no wield a weapon in the offhand rule' was argued to not only allow them to use unarmed strikes for TWF, but EVEN HAVE DERVISH DANCE APPLY TO THE UNARMED STRIKES. And I was one of the vocal opponents against the people that argued that the punch in pummeling strike could be done with a greatsword.
There will always be room for exploitation. And while yes, the devs should patch up some of the largest holes, it doesn't mean that they can solve anything while still making a reasonable ruleset with room for new material. At some point, the responsibility for keeping things running smoothly falls on those actually playing at the table.
But I will admit- my anger at anzyr was because of a feeling of betrayal since I thought he might have had material that... you know... you could use without cheesing it. Now, for on topic stuff:
You are correct though; Divination spells allow casters to see (and know) where other enemies are located, which allows them to pick and choose their battles on their terms, which already puts the Martials in the crap pile. Even with the Infinite Wish Sno-Cone Machines and the "I can summon permanent allies to my side that are super-powerful" shenanigans put to rest, that's just a couple of the multitude of broken things full casters can pull out of their rears.
It does mean those silly 'resist divination' options have actual purpose though.
In the usual game, it is useless since GMs have the ability Omniscience, which blasts away just about everything else. So they don't need divination spells. So those anti divination options are just a waste of your time. But in PvP, divination is an actual concern, since everyone has limited info as fellow players, and thus antidivination is an exciting prospect.
The anti divination options might take up resources...but you are level 20. Most people have all the critical stuff for their builds finished by level 15 at the latest. They should have 2-3 feats and such that they can use.
I'll probably regret this, but here is the opening post.
Hi!
If a 20th level of each class was played in an all out battle who would be victorious. It would be every man for himself, no teams.
1 Who would win/survive: I think the pally or the summoner. Pally because it can tank like crazy and has crazy saves, it also has good healing/condition removal. Summoner because they have an eidolon and can summon tons of other creatures to help. Barb and cleric may have a chance also.
2 Who would die first: I would say rouge because they are so squishy.
3 Who would kill the most opponents: I would say Blaster Wizard because of all the aoe available. Range,Lance,Pounce Barb would do pretty well also because of the sheer damage output.
4 If they had to stay alive for at least 2 months in the wild who would win then: I would say probably ranger or it still could be pally or summoner though. Ranger because they can make animals friendly, can hunt really well, and are stealthy.
What are your opinions on this. Plz say who and why they would do well.
By the way all of the characters would be played by people of an equal skill level.
Thanks!
Pretty sparse on the rules and arena. The arena seems to be "everywhere" and the rules are "all-out battle" which sounds like anything valid under the rules of PFRPG goes.
Further down the page in post 27 you add
Now there is an arena, and you cannot gate or teleport in or out of it. The size of the arena is not defined. There appears to be no limitation on monsters...88000 just like a normal 20th level character
no teleporting out of the arena by the way and no gating in either. basic summons are allowed.
and obviously these wizards have never met a good range lance pounce barb in the beginning of combat before they put up all their buffs.
Summon natures ally is allowed but not the summon z spells
As long as people do not try to completely break the rules,
I am finished :)
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What is the point of this exercise when you dismiss and deride anybody who attempts to design a character that can win it?
You do know that this is a dumb question, right? It relies on one class being better than the others. One class being better than the rest is system imperfection. In other words, your whole question hinges on the game already being somewhat broken. And that's fine if we're just having fun, but when you repeatedly bring in new rules and practically insult anybody who tries a concept you find "OP", I get the sense this thread isn't supposed to be fun, it's supposed to be serious.
And it can't be serious. Because it's a silly question. So stop putting in new rules and just let discussion happen.
What is the point of this exercise when you dismiss and deride anybody who attempts to design a character that can win it?
You do know that this is a dumb question, right? It relies on one class being better than the others. One class being better than the rest is system imperfection. In other words, your whole question hinges on the game already being somewhat broken. And that's fine if we're just having fun, but when you repeatedly bring in new rules and practically insult anybody who tries a concept you find "OP", I get the sense this thread isn't supposed to be fun, it's supposed to be serious.
And it can't be serious. Because it's a silly question. So stop putting in new rules and just let discussion happen.
Well, it there are certainly some whose basic concepts are better suited for a one man party concept than others. IE- the enchanters end up getting minions that make them better suited to this than the buffers, even if they might not always contribute as much in some o the usual party based gameplay (since the GM could throw undead and other immune things out, or just makes fights into a ton of weak beasts that aren't worth controlling, while the bard's +x from inspire courage always helps out).
Ignoring power concerns (which...yes, does make this kind of silly), some builds end up being far more useful for this than they normally would be in PvP. I mean...unlike normal gameplay, there are only two things that bring trippers down- flying and teh druid turning into a giant centipede. And grapplers don't have to worry as much about size or incorporeal.
So while having powers that just generally wreck people is a large advantage (...wizards), there are elements where CMD and saves might end up being important as well.
There is also the idea of how quickly can you accellerate to your full potential. The set up here is that everyone gets tossed into this starting at 0 phm, unlike the full 60 mph they are at since they rev up (buff with great 10 min/level buffs) before entering the dungeon/abandoned temple/etc. And since there is something of a wide area here, that means they could be wandering for hours before they encounter enemies (assuming that some of the builds have anti-divination stuff). That means that classes that can buff as a swift action without planning ahead for it, such as the warpriest, might get an edge.
Of course there are hour/level buffs too, but there is a question of quality vs. short intense buffs.
If it's a square mile then the next question is how close the contestants start. if they enter at equally spaced entrances then they might easily be 1000' or more apart at the start (depending on how many there are) and out of line of sight, which is far enough apart that quite a bit of buffing or stealth might occur. In fact, there's a real chance that a couple of well-prepared & paranoid stealth types might take weeks for one to locate the other. Not just hours.
If the unspoken limitation is practical optimisation rather than theoretical optimisation, then IMO the winner will be someone who can cast shapechange and use a bunch of divinations and protections vs. divinations, which means a divination wizard is likely to win - even if Anzyr's exact prescriptions would cause ranting and throwing of books.
& no, unless they start in line of sight and pretty close a barbarian doesn't have a snowballs chance in the City of Brass of winning.
If it's a square mile then the next question is how close the contestants start. if they enter at equally spaced entrances then they might easily be 1000' or more apart at the start (depending on how many there are) and out of line of sight, which is far enough apart that quite a bit of buffing or stealth might occur. In fact, there's a real chance that a couple of well-prepared & paranoid stealth types might take weeks for one to locate the other. Not just hours.
If the unspoken limitation is practical optimisation rather than theoretical optimisation, then IMO the winner will be someone who can cast shapechange and use a bunch of divinations and protections vs. divinations, which means a divination wizard is likely to win - even if Anzyr's exact prescriptions would cause ranting and throwing of books.
& no, unless they start in line of sight and pretty close a barbarian doesn't have a snowballs chance in the City of Brass of winning.
Yeah, no one ever said that wizards didn't have the prime advantage. Anyone who didn't think the odds would generally be in the favor is delusional.
Just that, with enough hiding, waiting, and dumb luck, then there is a chance they might catch the wizard off guard. Heck, anyone with 3 levels of shadow dancer have a decent enough chance if they have the shadow do str damage. Hide in plain sight doesn't hurt either.
I view martials in this more like 3rd party cannidates in American Presidential Elections- no one really expects them to win, but they might throw enough of a monkey wrench that they mess other cannidates up. As a fighter, I would count killing the wizard as a win, even if I got killed they next round.
@ CWheezy: unless he's busy doing something else because there are other enemies visible.
@ lemeres: the first post listed paladins, summoners, barbarians and clerics as the most likely to win. With the exception of the cleric I don't find those likely. Though any of them could mess up a fight between two others, as you say.
So let's see if I can sum up the general rules here, and the OP can confirm:
Arena Size: 1 Mile in Diameter (5,280 Ft. = 1,056 squares), cannot go higher or lower than 100 ft. altitude. Characters are placed randomly, but at equal distance from each other. (Characters have no knowledge of other character locations to begin with, but can acquire through class features, skills, spells, etc.)
General Terrain: Woods/Forest, typical placement of bushes/trees/plants, occasional stream/river and trails.
Transportation: All modes are allowed, i.e. burrowing, swimming, flying, et. al., but cannot exit the arena, or enter other planes. (Creatures going Incorporeal might get a green card for this.)
Equipment: Standardized Equipment only; this includes consumables such as spell-trigger/completion, potions, weapons, armor, wondrous items, and similar or obviously-related subjects. Items that summon creatures that are not from the Summon Monster/Nature's Ally I-XI list are forbidden from purchase/use. All other types of "equipment" are likewise forbidden.
Other Limitations
-Spells such as Gate or Planar Binding cannot be used to summon creatures (nor can a carefully worded Wish or Miracle spell). Class Features (such as the Summoner's Eidolon and a Druid's Animal Companion) are allowed for use.
-All characters are by themselves, so should plan as if they are without a party. No teaming up is allowed (though this doesn't mean characters can't all focus one target.)
-All Paizo Pathfinder Sources are allowed.
-No Mythic, Unchained, 3PP, or other Optional Rules, such as Called Shots, Armor as DR, Hero Points, etc. can be used.
It seems to me like an Occult Oracle could win this hands down if they were allowed to make use of their capstone ability to become a ghost.
Yeah, capstones like that certainly mean that there needs to be some more win requirements.
"Being the last person alive" certainly seems fair.
But I would say that "taking 2-8 days where you don't exist" would be a disqualifier.
I won't necessarily say that turning undead should be a lose condition, but lets evaluate that capstone based on how it is used in play: if the oracle dies, then it allows them to come back (although...what 20th level party would let them stay dead that long is a mystery). But lets say you die in the middle of the fight... your party is down its divine caster, and has less actions per round. In RPG systems like this, losing party members is the start of a deathspiral that leads to TPK. So your party gets TPK'd, and you aren't going to be around for 2-8 days. That seems like the end of a campaign to me. I could see some GMs being lienient, and allowing you to try getting the corpses back and rezzing them... but still, generally, this ability is just a utility one, not a major combat ability.
So saying 'you lose' would be rather fair, since that ability is not meant to win fights. Now, if someone had a spell cast on them that let them rise as an undead being within a couple rounds...yeah, that is meant to turn around fights.
So as a general condition, it seems fair to disqualify people with respawn abilities that take days to activate (such as the reincarnated druid). Because really... it isn't a good measure of your combat abilities. Sure, you can come back again and again...but if you are weak enough that you always get one shotted, and you pose enough of a threat to kill the other guy...then this would just be a silly repetitive thing over and over again. Sure, that exact scenario might not happen (since most of these respawn options are for 9 level casters, who always have a slim chance), but I hope you can appreciate that the respawn ability is not really a part of your combat potential.
It seems to me like an Occult Oracle could win this hands down if they were allowed to make use of their capstone ability to become a ghost.Yeah, capstones like that certainly mean that there needs to be some more win requirements.
"Being the last person alive" certainly seems fair.
But I would say that "taking 2-8 days where you don't exist" would be a disqualifier.
I won't necessarily say that turning undead should be a lose condition, but lets evaluate that capstone based on how it is used in play: if the oracle dies, then it allows them to come back (although...what 20th level party would let them stay dead that long is a mystery). But lets say you die in the middle of the fight... your party is down its divine caster, and has less actions per round. In RPG systems like this, losing party members is the start of a deathspiral that leads to TPK. So your party gets TPK'd, and you aren't going to be around for 2-8 days. That seems like the end of a campaign to me. I could see some GMs being lienient, and allowing you to try getting the corpses back and rezzing them... but still, generally, this ability is just a utility one, not a major combat ability.
So saying 'you lose' would be rather fair, since that ability is not meant to win fights. Now, if someone had a spell cast on them that let them rise as an undead being within a couple rounds...yeah, that is meant to turn around fights.
So as a general condition, it seems fair to disqualify people with respawn abilities that take days to activate (such as the reincarnated druid). Because really... it isn't a good measure of your combat abilities. Sure, you can come back again and again...but if you are weak enough that you always get one shotted, and you pose enough of a threat to kill the other guy...then this would just be a silly repetitive thing over and over again. Sure, that exact scenario might not happen (since most of these respawn options are for 9 level casters, who always have a slim chance), but I...
I did forget that there were no win conditions stated. The OP makes mention of who would survive in the wilderness for 2 months as being a possible winning condition, so long term abilities such as the 2-8 days "respawn" might be effective.
Unfortunately, this can lead to cheese, where the target can keep dead straight for that long, so I'd figure a "Last Man Standing" thing could be enforced. Similarly, if the idea is that you're "dead" for the entire time the "arena" is taking place, that would be grounds for being defeated in the arena as well (since you're perpetually dead for the entire competition).
So it makes the most sense both thematically and technically to rule as such:
Victory Conditions: Characters win if they are the last man standing after the course of 2 months (that is, they are the only valid participant left in the arena). If you are slain within the 2 month period (regardless of if you can come back to life or not), you lose. It doesn't matter if you have some sort of reincarnating power, if you're defeated, whether by death or similar circumstances (even being thrown outside of the arena would count as a "Ring-out, meaning TKOs are plausible), you no longer become a valid participant in the arena. (If anything, having a "failsafe" in the events you die is perhaps the best investment amongst your 880,000 WBL provision, especially when you're an underdog like the Rogue or Fighter.)
I was actually thinking of the Occult Oracle just becoming a ghost before the battle even began. Being an incorporeal undead provides a whole slew of immunities and possibilities that could let the oracle - a powerful 9th level caster - win without even needing to use Rejuvenation. Some deliberate building could improve this tactic, with feats like Flyby Attack and Animal Soul and some of the more powerful ghostly abilities.
But even that just puts the occult oracle on the same level as wizards, clerics, and other similar 9th level casters.
The Psychic Sorcerer can also use Mind Swap as a free action before dying. If you keep beating the will saves the Psychic Sorcerer is kinda crazy.
I was actually thinking of the Occult Oracle just becoming a ghost before the battle even began. Being an incorporeal undead provides a whole slew of immunities and possibilities that could let the oracle - a powerful 9th level caster - win without even needing to use Rejuvenation. Some deliberate building could improve this tactic, with feats like Flyby Attack and Animal Soul and some of the more powerful ghostly abilities.
But even that just puts the occult oracle on the same level as wizards, clerics, and other similar 9th level casters.
I would still place the requirement of existing the entire time in the arena.
Ghost respawn after 2d4 days, right? So that means they are gone for 2-8 days. I would count that as a down.
I'm talking about something along the lines of "He died and became a ghost several years before the arena fight happened."
I know what you mean.
I mean the actual ghost template. There is a reason why the oracle ability has that time frame- it is the length of time it takes for a ghost to respawn via the rejuvenate ability.
IE- if you get pounced by the barbarian with a +5 Furious Ghostbane Greatsword, and he crits enough that he one shots you, then it would take you 2d4 days to get back up.
It is the main thing about ghosts- you don't kill them, so much as beat them back hard enough that you can do your immediate business. It is why you have to go around investigating why they are a ghost so that you can remove the reason for their existence, since it is the only way to be rid of them. It is the main process of ghost extermination.
Unless they are killed when they are flat-footed. Or have already used up their swift/immediate action.
Or are killed by an enemy that's more than 300 feet away. Or behind total cover.
And as long as their Mind Swap isn't blocked by SR. Or an antimagic field. Or a counterspell (gasp!). Or Spellbane, Greater Spell Immunity, or a Rod of Absorption.Oh, and it doesn't protect them against enemies immune to mind-affecting effects.
Like, say, a ghost.Also, there are plenty of non-lethal incapacitating effects.
To state the obvious, if you are focusing on a mind swap build with the full expectation your true body will be no more then why wouldn't you prepare for all the likely scenarios?
Heck, why would you even be in your original body by the time that effect is relevant? I would've high tailed it out of my original body and starting playing some poor martial through private messages turn one. Have decent mundane skills and a build around casting without obvious signs of casting. In a random death match you simply don't have time to prepare or set up an ideal kill situation. You have to take the shot quick because there are at least twenty other guys moving before it's your turn again. Yes, there are limitations, but it gives an extra percentage chance of survival. I don't think the Occult Oracle killing the Sorcerer is the probable outcome. You have to stop thinking in terms of 1v1.
(Besides which, being alive in the first place might be a requirement for a death battle... >_> )
Let's take that barbarian as an example. I'm assuming you meant a Ghost Touch greatsword (hence the ability to crit). Ignoring the question of whether this barbarian would really have expected to be fighting incorporeal creatures, he's going to have a harder time killing a ghostly oracle in one round than almost any other full-spellcaster. Why? This oracle gets their insanely high casting stat to AC twice with Deific Obedience in addition to their +5 ghost touch mithral breastplate, as well as getting their casting stat to HP every level.
Also, how is the barbarian attacking the oracle? The oracle should be hiding just underground at all times. And how did the barbarian find the oracle,...
Let unpack
1. yes, I meant ghost touch. You have insane amounts of money, and I am sure someone is going to summon something or other incorporeal. If you don't at least have a +1 ghsot touch weapon as a spare, then you are ill prepared ehre. Particularly with a class like spiritualist in the mix, where one of its main gimmicks is that is has a pet ghost. Shadowdancers and shadows are also major threats, since they are good at stealth and might be great against pure casters that dumped strength.2. Yes, you ahve decent AC...although you might have trouble getting getting basic boosts past that breastplate (since ghost touch is a weapon and armor thing, as far as I am aware). So I am unsure if this is a "6 of one, half dozen of the other" situation, since you might be missing the usual rings, amulets, and such. If we are discussing pure AC.
Addendum- and a ghost touch breastplate is a step down for you, actually. Ectoplasmic armor (which lasts for 20 hours in this case) give you +4 AC, plus +2(x4). That is +12 AC, vesus the +11 of a +5 breastplate. I might keep the breastplate as a spare, for those 4 uncovered hours...but still...
3. Pure luck. That is one of the main things about his match- the game usually reduces the amount of luck through teamwork (allowing various people to cover various roles and help eachother when they are incapacitated) as well as general structure of the campaign (ie- you are going through planned encounters that lead up to something- all set up by the GM).
This match will be pure chaos where each player goes off to do their own thing, and they try to exploit their own strategies. So kill stealing by sniping two people already fighting is a legitimate strategy. For all I know, the spiritualist foudn you, and send his phantom out to drag you out.
So the question is less 'how does the barbarian get to you?', it is 'how do you avoid a sudden attack out in the open while someone else is trying to kill you?' Because with dozens of classes all in this arena, and with hundreds of archetypes that could be used...someone probably has something to expose you, and someone else might be watches.
4. I have gone on, repeatedly, about how I do not think a martial would 'win'. I am just questioning whether they will luck out and kill some of the people going about.
I only cited barbarian since it was one of the typical "boom- one shotted" classes when it comes to melee when they get in a good pounce. Since ghosts are immune to a lot of the typical SoS spells (which have a weird gamblign weight in this competition- no help when you get a crippling condition, but if they make the save, theyn your turn might be wasted), so a quick way to do hit point damage is one of the more obvious threats. It could just as easily be some cleric or paladin slinging positive energy.
Overall, while your ghostliness is a great advantage (Incorperal, cha to AC and saves, etc.) , it doesn't necessarily mean a sure win. Now, do you want to be the one spouting this line:
"How could a mere barbarian such as you kill me! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE!"
Incidentally, an your cleric and paladin harm animals with their positive energy channeling?
If not, taking Animal Soul (via Animal Ally) like I mentioned earlier makes the oracle entirely immune.Of course it's possible for a barbarian to kill the oracle.
But I don't think it's significantly more likely than it is for the barbarian to kill the wizard or cleric, and I feel that that is an achievement in itself.Edit: Wait, aren't shadowdancers and other prestige classes not allowed?
1. unsure about how positie energy affects this. But most likely, yes, since this is another case of a rule being drawn out of its intended scope. Where is your occult oracle getting the animal companion though?
2. Fair enough.
3. no idea on presige classes. A quick search shows you are the first to use the word 'prestige'. Still, I do not see why they shouldn't be allowed. It isn't like most of them would significantly tip this situation, since they are usually subpar. and if some people can go undead, then why not allow a shadow? Knowing that one of those is running around can really make people wary of using blood money.
3. Well, I think the idea was to not have multiclassing in general so we could look at each class at 20th level. But I'm fine with including them in the thought experiment
Prestige classes certainly mesh better with less selective dipping to snipe front loaded features only meant to get a class going.
The crossblooded dragon/orc sorcerer that very quickly goes into wizard being one of the well known mutliclass things for blasters.
But prestige classes were generally designed to be put into a multiclass, so they ahve less obvious problems with them.
EDIT- admittedly, the three levels of shadow dancer is selective dipping for front loaded features...but it has costs (prerequisites) and the shadow doesn't entire scale well (but eh- you just want it for the chance of sneaking up on a wizard and str damaging him to death).
In regards to prestige classes not being allowed, the only disclaimer is that it's Paizo only products. Player Companion books and such are allowed, but only Paizo-Pathfinder materials are legal for use in regards to character-generation. So yes, Shadow Dancers and Arcane Archers and EKs and other Paizo-only Prestige Classes are all valid character options to take and build with.
But, keep in mind that some abilities that classes possess will be restricted. Teleporting (or displacing) between planes, such as with Plane Shift, is grounds for disqualification, so is exiting the arena perimeter, which has been defined as being a 1 mile diameter forested area with occasional rocks, trees, bushes, and a few streams of water, all of which are 100 feet both above and below ground. Ironically enough, if enemies are forcibly shoved out of said arena grounds, they too would be eliminated via TKO.
Level 20 Ninja:
1) Rogue Trick(Snap Shot) -- Gain Init roll of effectively a 20 for the surprise round. Competes well with a diviner wizard compared to other inits.
2) Hidden Master -- Use in surprise round. Not even the gods can find him.
3) Assassinate -- Fort save of 10 + half-level + charisma-mod.
4) Ability Focus -- Bump the assassinate DC by 2.
5) Wand of Acid Splash -- range touch no save no SR for sneak attack fodder.
6) Deliquescent Gloves -- touch attack no save no SR for sneak attack fodder.
7) Wand of Brand -- touch attack not energy resistible for sneak attack fodder.
8) Item of flight -- make it easier for you to move, and reach those pesky flying casters. Also breaks tremorsense.
My initial thought was a 38+ participant cage match. With that, use your stealth and Hidden Master to hide out a few rounds, letting most of the others take each other out. You only have to be the last one standing
/cevah
1. Never having used it, I was not aware of the specifics.
2. Hidden Master will last 20 minutes per 3 ki. [Less if you have that ring.]
3. Assassinate targets Fort. Use it on casters, not martials. Even if they make the save, taking a lot of damage can still kill, especially if they use some of the debuffs available to Rogues. As to the helm and jingasa, wait until they used up their 1/day stuff, then pull out assassinate. While some are immune, many are not. Any one-trick-pony deserves to be one-shot. Since you can do a knowledge check for free to identify enemies characteristics, you can use some of your skill point to be sure you can know if the opponent has a bad fort save and if they are vulnerable to the technique.
7. Acid splash does not, but gets resisted by energy protection. That is why you want both.
8. Yeah, area affects and antimagic effects are problems. As they are for everyone.
As to others turtling, you got hours to find them while you are invisible.
Yes, each characteristic can be countered. Same can be said for any class. The ninja is about deception. That includes where you are weak. Make the other guy target your best defense while you target their weakest.
While there are no pre-buffs, I think it would be OK to dress the part of another type of character in order to fool your opponents. Use disguise and bluff to make them incorrectly evaluate you. If it everyone at once, you make yourself look like you can't do much to them, so that they attack others first. Use items to make them waste spells on what they thought was you.
Martials have a harder time finding you, but casters are more likely to take out some key part of your defense. So look like a martial. Since the standard advice is "Target the casters", that helps you stay out of the line of fire for a round or two while everyone targets the casters. Use that time to hide and then buff yourself. When you emerge, you have more buffs than anyone else, since you spent no offensive actions. Meanwhile, most of the heavy stuff has already been played.
/cevah
At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool. ...
Greater invisibility lasts 1 round/level and the capstone does not reference anything else which'd extend it. 20 rounds = 2 minutes.
Of course, casters can hide with the best of them, and are just as inclined to try and let the others kill each other off first. More so, actually, a wizard spends much of his career worried about being hit without defences up. (Terry Pratchett: An ancient proverb summed it up: when a wizard is tired of looking for broken glass in his dinner, it ran, he is tired of life.)
I expect a druid in this arena would immediately wild shape into an earth elemental and dive into the ground. A wizard might do similarly via shapechange. Being invisible to true seeing for up to the first 20 minutes or so is nice but not enough to let you play the waiting game. For that you'd need hide in plain sight.
I almost look at this more in the general sense of who would win rather then what we can build to win.
For example, generally regardless of the build, a Wizard would do fairly well by comparison to a Monk at 20th level. However, this also means that from a general standpoint some classes will have inherent advantages over others without the aid of gear.
So maybe it would be better for us to look at what class, regardless of build, would do very well in this scenario at level 20. For myself, I put Paladin, Druid, Cleric and Wizard near the top, with Swashbuckler, Monk and Ranger near the bottom. Thoughts?
My initial thought was a 38+ participant cage match. With that, use your stealth and Hidden Master to hide out a few rounds, letting most of the others take each other out. You only have to be the last one standing
i have read it all.. an the winner is the humble Rogue.. who is hiding in plain sight.
with a humble mention to the Druid who took everyone else out. with the summoned elder elementals and tree striding wild shaping and the ultimate animal companion which he was using as bait.
My heresy is gaining support! <3
If its winter, i think its a tossup between a druid, cleric, and winter oracle who can just make it blizzard all day everyday and not care until everybody else is dead from exposure. (plus any other class that has access to endure elements)
If its winter, i think its a tossup between a druid, cleric, and winter oracle who can just make it blizzard all day everyday and not care until everybody else is dead from exposure. (plus any other class that has access to endure elements)
You should look up the Winter Witch. Combined with the Synergist archetype you can have one hell of a winter specialist with absolute immunity to cold, the ability to bust through cold immunity on anyone else, and a constant fly speed.
...Greater invisibility lasts 1 round/level and the capstone does not reference anything else which'd extend it. 20 rounds = 2 minutes.
The SRD messed me up. I clicked the link, but it took me to invisibility, not greater invisibility. Thus my messed up numbers. :-(
/cevah
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...Greater invisibility lasts 1 round/level and the capstone does not reference anything else which'd extend it. 20 rounds = 2 minutes.The SRD messed me up. I clicked the link, but it took me to invisibility, not greater invisibility. Thus my messed up numbers. :-(
/cevah
They're on the same page. Most spells that have greater/lesser versions are all on one page. Just scroll down.