Sneaky Touch Attack Build

[RaizielDragon]

I'm interested in a build that combines using Stealth (either with Hide in Plain Sight, or more likely Hellcat Stealth) and/or Invisibility to get the drop on opponents and deliver touch attacks (either ranged or melee) in order to deny them both Dex/Dodge bonuses AND Armor/Shield/Natural Armor bonuses to AC, essentially making the characters attacks incredibly accurate.

I had thought about making it some sort of spellcaster build, and using touch attack spells, but I am also wondering if Kineticist might be a good fit as well.

I don't know much about the Kineticist yet, but a quick glance over it seems to indicate that a lot of their save DCs are Dex-based which would fit well with a sneaky, finessed, character. I also like the idea of a Kineticist that can use their abilities all day, as opposed to a spellcaster that could potentially run out of spells. It's also difficult to be a spell-based damage dealer without investing in a lot of Metamagic feats, which I don't like to bother with typically.

Any suggestions for this kind of build?

[Imbicatus]

Unchained Rogue actually works very well for this. Use Minor/Major Magic for this, and use the FCB for increasing Major Magic uses. One casting of Chill Touch will last an entire encounter, and will give you touch-based sneak attacks to really boost the damage.

[RaizielDragon]

The Sneak Attack damage as a way to boost my damage output is a nice idea. But I don't like the limited uses of Major Magic limiting how often I can attack; admittedly, as you said, one use could probably last an entire encounter though. It doesn't come online until 4th at the earliest from what I can tell.

Any reason you suggested Unchained Rogue specifically? I actually like Ninja for this more I think. They have access to invisibility and Sneak bonuses that the Rogue does not.

[Chess Pwn]

rogue gets dex to damage and free weapon finesse. Along with debilitating strike at 4th.

[Chess Pwn]

another option is to go wizard into arcane trickster and take advantage of the sense vital's spell.

[Imbicatus]

RaizielDragon wrote:

The Sneak Attack damage as a way to boost my damage output is a nice idea. But I don't like the limited uses of Major Magic limiting how often I can attack; admittedly, as you said, one use could probably last an entire encounter though. It doesn't come online until 4th at the earliest from what I can tell.

Any reason you suggested Unchained Rogue specifically? I actually like Ninja for this more I think. They have access to invisibility and Sneak bonuses that the Rogue does not.

Because the unchained Rouge Minor Magic is unlimited, and Major Magic is 1/2 class levels per day. Chained talents that the Ninja uses is limited to three times a day for minor and two times for major.

[RaizielDragon]

How easy is it for the Unchained Rogue to get Vanishing Trick, and the advanced one, and a ki pool to use them?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Take a level in Gunslinger, then take 2 levels in Ninja and take the Ninja Vanishing Trick, then take 3 levels in Monk and be a Drunken Master.

Guns are Ranged Touch Attacks.

The Ninja Vanishing Trick will let you turn Invisible as a Swift Action.

You don't get your Dex Mod when your attacker is Invisible, so now you will be making Ranged Touch Attacks vs. your victims Flatfooted AC.

And you get your Sneak Attack Damage with every shot.

Drunken Master's Drunken Ki will give you endless(ish) Ki to turn Invisible with.

Drunken Ninja with a Gun!

[default]

One problem with dex to damage is it doesn't work with touch attacks-as per the FAQ, if you wouldn't get strength to the damage, you don't get dex either, and you apply any modifiers as well (Such as 1.5 for two-handed or 1/2 for off-hand)

[Ellioti]

Nature Fang druid with Flame Blade

[LoneKnave]

Depends how RAW you want to go.

If you don't mind being a munchkin, Nature Fang with 1 level into Vivisectionist gets full backstab+the aforementioned Flame Blade.

[Imbicatus]

LoneKnave wrote:

Depends how RAW you want to go.

If you don't mind being a munchkin, Nature Fang with 1 level into Vivisectionist gets full backstab+the aforementioned Flame Blade.

Only because Vivisectionist is horribly written. No one would ever allow that to mean that a class that only provides one level of sneak attack die counts as rogue levels to stack with vivi.

[The Dragon]

It IS kind of cool though.

[Zwordsman]

Pretty much unchained rogue, or a vivi alchemist.
using deliquescent gloves or ice rod. Elemental touch attacks with sneak attack.
could also toss in the mino/majo magic trick too.

pretty much the unchained with the aformentioned tricks, with the gloves and an ice rod. Can do several different kind of elemental/energy damages. Toss in a pistol if you like as well, or dip ace bolt with enough grit I guess.

If underground Chemist suits you, could also pick up a launching crossbow for ranged touch attacks w/ the class bombs and alchemical weapons.

[LoneKnave]

Imbicatus wrote:

LoneKnave wrote:

Depends how RAW you want to go.

If you don't mind being a munchkin, Nature Fang with 1 level into Vivisectionist gets full backstab+the aforementioned Flame Blade.

Only because Vivisectionist is horribly written. No one would ever allow that to mean that a class that only provides one level of sneak attack die counts as rogue levels to stack with vivi.

It does exactly what paizo intended. Stops rogues from gaining any benefit from it, while giving a huge benefit to a full caster.

[Zenogu]

Chess Pwn wrote:

another option is to go wizard into arcane trickster and take advantage of the sense vital's spell.

Oh wow. A spell that grants scaling sneak attack. This harkens me back to 3.5 Hunters Eye

[Johnny_Devo]

Imbicatus wrote:

LoneKnave wrote:

Depends how RAW you want to go.

If you don't mind being a munchkin, Nature Fang with 1 level into Vivisectionist gets full backstab+the aforementioned Flame Blade.

Only because Vivisectionist is horribly written. No one would ever allow that to mean that a class that only provides one level of sneak attack die counts as rogue levels to stack with vivi.

There are plenty of classes that have a non-standard sneak attack progression. I'm pretty sure that it should work the same way fractional BaB does, but it's a little clunky to calculate it that way. Instead, every "standard" progression levels stack. So a rogue 3/vivisectionist 2/nature fang 4 would be the same as rogue 5/nature fang 4 for sneak attack, with the total dice being 4d6.

[The Dragon]

Johnny_Devo wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

LoneKnave wrote:

Depends how RAW you want to go.

If you don't mind being a munchkin, Nature Fang with 1 level into Vivisectionist gets full backstab+the aforementioned Flame Blade.

Only because Vivisectionist is horribly written. No one would ever allow that to mean that a class that only provides one level of sneak attack die counts as rogue levels to stack with vivi.

There are plenty of classes that have a non-standard sneak attack progression. I'm pretty sure that it should work the same way fractional BaB does, but it's a little clunky to calculate it that way. Instead, every "standard" progression levels stack. So a rogue 3/vivisectionist 2/nature fang 4 would be the same as rogue 5/nature fang 4 for sneak attack, with the total dice being 4d6.

Yes, but someone at paizo thought it overpowered for someone to dip into multiple sneak-attack granting classes, completely tanking their BAB in the proccess.

So while what you say is what perhaps should happen, what vivisectionist actually does is give Vivisectionist 1/Nature Fang Druid 4 a sneak attack die of 3d6.

I agree that this is stupid. I disagree that it is not true - it very obviously is.

If paizo wanted it to be different, they should've been more careful with the colateral victims of their nerfbat.

[Helcack]

Be a Ninja
put max ranks in craft(alchemy)
1 Unarmed Strike
3 Adder Strike
5 Two-Weapon Fighting
6 Spend Ninja Trick on Combat Trick(Pinpoint Poisoner)

[Mulgar]

I'm having fun with a magus 3/ ninja 3 in pfs. Wayang magical knack dissolution's child vanishing trick wand wielder.

Fun fun stuff.

[Johnny_Devo]

Mulgar wrote:

I'm having fun with a magus 3/ ninja 3 in pfs. Wayang magical knack dissolution's child vanishing trick wand wielder.

Fun fun stuff.

If you're already doing that, you might as well take a 4th level in magus and start the arcane trickster path.

[Mulgar]

Original plan was magus 9 ninja 3

[Zwordsman]

Helcack wrote:

Be a Ninja

put max ranks in craft(alchemy)
1 Unarmed Strike
3 Adder Strike
5 Two-Weapon Fighting
6 Spend Ninja Trick on Combat Trick(Pinpoint Poisoner)

Could also build this out of Toxicant Vivi alchemist.

toxicant gives you poison for free, and even a touch attack version of it.
but.
the addar strike version is al ot more fun. and works pretty well with the toxivivi.