I decided to check this archetype because I despise Burn mechanics, but it seems it can't do anything that would cost Burn, unless you have the ability to reduce Burn.
So what's the point of taking it instead of using the normal Kineticist and simply not using Burn? I don't need to base my class features on Cha to raise the attribute.
It's such a horrible archetype, it feels almost like it was made out of spite. I don't think that's the case, but by the gods... This archetype does basically nothing but remove options from the class and make it MAD!
Seriously, what am I missing here?
They really nerfed it with Overwhelming Power: why did it limited it to Blasts not to Kinetic Blade, etc?
Really, only change is their non-Blast has a lower hit/dam, they use Cha, and a 3 times/day they can lower Burn by 1 for Wild Talents at level 20.
I would expand Overwhelming power to make it viable.
Undead. since they cannot take on burn and lack con, they would be ruined as kineticists. With this, they are back to semi casters that use their HP stat for their abilities.
Also, some people freak out about burn (not sure why entirely- with con focus and extreme SAD, they have enough con that a bit of burn drops them down to 'normal' levels as far as other classes are concerned). This archetype lets you go without burn, yet lets you not feel like you ripped out half of your attack bonus.
It might be nice for NPCs- having characters that just have their bonuses right there, instead of trying to reconfigure a boss's bonuses while still playing his 4-6 minions.
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They really nerfed it with Overwhelming Power: why did it limited it to Blasts not to Kinetic Blade, etc?
Really, only change is their non-Blast has a lower hit/dam, they use Cha, and a 3 times/day they can lower Burn by 1 for Wild Talents at level 20.
I would expand Overwhelming power to make it viable.
The damage bonus doesn't apply to blades for anyone, and the accuracy applies to blades for overwhelming souls.
The primary benefit of the archetype is to allow viable math for a character who literally either can't or won't use burn ever as a regular kineticist, not even for defenses (in some cases, the character can't take burn due to other choices, like being undead), which is why it's crucial to apply that accuracy bonus everywhere for overwhelming power.
Secondarily, it allows for some interesting face builds with skilled kineticist, undead builds, and multiclass builds with Cha classes.
Overwhelming soul isn't for every character. If you aren't interested in Charisma at all and you were going to use burn at least enough to fill up elemental overflow each day, in the vast majority of situations you should probably be playing a baseline kineticist.
EDIT: Lemeres ninjaed me with similar answers. Well played sir!
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Undead. since they cannot take on burn and lack con, they would be ruined as kineticists. With this, they are back to semi casters that use their HP stat for their abilities.
This would happen automatically. Any Con based ability becomes Cha based for undead. All Undead Kinetisists would be Con based.
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So, basically it's nothing but a subtle way of saying "Hey, if you don't want to use Burn or can't do it, here is an archetype that will remove it from your character and not give you anything back in return, while also making your character MAD."?
Why not give something in exchange for the loss of... Well... Pretty much everything the class does? It doesn't really make the Kineticist a better party-face, since nothing was stopping them from boosting Cha and the associated skills anyway.
Why not give some sort of "elemental ki pool" or whatever that can be used in place of Burn? The archetype already pays for the lack of Burn with increased MAD and a much worse penalty to burn (negative levels).
Such a wasted opportunity... What an awful archetype...
As Mark explained, the archetype serves a particular purpose (mainly allowing undead kineticists, since they can't take non lethal damage), and I think it serves that purpose well enough. As Mark said, most characters are better off with the base kineticist, that's by design.
I've read and the explanation and I understand the stated design goal...
Both are rather disappointing.
I still think it's a poorly designed archetype, since it gives nothing in return for what it takes away. IMHO, whoever wrote this archetype really messed up on the execution. The Overwhelming Soul should go back to the design board and be FAQ'd into something that actually adds something to the class in exchange for what is removed.
It's a situational option. Granted, I think it's a bit too situational of an option, but it's an option nonetheless. Aether Kineticists are very good at playing Rogues, and if you want Face features, this fits right in.
Although, honestly I saw like one prestige class that uses Cha. worth giving up Burn for. Unless you are dipping into Kineticist in which case Rogues I suppose like it. I really like Cha. as a stat and it is often undervalued, but... eh. Giving up Burn, despite the hate for it, seems too painful honestly.
I think Mind Over Matter and Overwhelming Power are good solid trades for a Burnless Kineticist concept. But, Mental Prowess is where I arch an eyebrow. I don't think I'm getting enough back there for being Burnless. I think I would prefer keeping Internal Buffer and having some sort of action to meditate and refill that buffer as it were. Basically, a Gather Power that works for later on. I know the reduction in cost is supposed to serve as a way around Internal Buffer, but it's weak enough that I think I would rather play a normal Aether Kineticist/Ninja than an Overwelming Soul/Ninja.
If you don't want to take burn then the archetype lets you have an archetype that doesn't need burn to get the "Elemental overflow" bonuses. Also it makes some races have stats that work better, like halfling now gets more out of it's stats than a normal version.
It is merely altering the class to basically work the same with no burn, not to change what the class is doing.
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So it's an archetype for a class built around a specific mechanic (for good or for ill, gentlemen) that replaces that mechanic and gives you its hamstrung tofu of a substitute.
It would be like a creating a Paladin archetype that replaced Smite Evil, Detect Evil, and Divine Grace with Studied target, no alignment requirements, and sneak attack, then selling it as the any-alignment Paladin. Sure, it's technically correct, and in some cases it will be effective, but it's not a Paladin anymore.
I'd go with Charisma Modifier free burn per day, plus the free burn at 6th, 10th, and 14th as a partial fix. Also, Overwhelming Power to Blade/Whip damage.
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It would be like a creating a Paladin archetype that replaced Smite Evil, Detect Evil, and Divine Grace with Studied target, no alignment requirements, and sneak attack, then selling it as the any-alignment Paladin. Sure, it's technically correct, and in some cases it will be effective, but it's not a Paladin anymore.
Actually, no...
It'd be like taking away all of the Paladin's spells and supernatural abilities, removing the alignment component, giving it one bonus combat feat and then saying it's an alignment-free Paladin... Of course it is! It's barely any better than a freaking fallen Paladin!!!
Oh! And the explanation would be "Now it can be used by constructs and creatures without Cha score. And it 'allows' interesting multiclassing with non-Cha-based classes."
Seriously, I really like Mark's work, but this archetype is s
terrible design.
So it's an archetype for a class built around a specific mechanic (for good or for ill, gentlemen) that replaces that mechanic and gives you its hamstrung tofu of a substitute.
It would be like a creating a Paladin archetype that replaced Smite Evil, Detect Evil, and Divine Grace with Studied target, no alignment requirements, and sneak attack, then selling it as the any-alignment Paladin. Sure, it's technically correct, and in some cases it will be effective, but it's not a Paladin anymore.
No, you keep Divine Grace, you lose Mercy in your example.
I like the Consecrated Slayer Paladin Archetype.
I'd go with Charisma Modifier free burn per day, plus the free burn at 6th, 10th, and 14th as a partial fix. Also, Overwhelming Power to Blade/Whip damage.
I like that fix. Much better since its flavor text is reducing burn after all.
It instead ignores burn (except when it can't) which isn't consistent to its flavor so your fix is better.
So it's an archetype for a class built around a specific mechanic (for good or for ill, gentlemen) that replaces that mechanic and gives you its hamstrung tofu of a substitute.
It would be like a creating a Paladin archetype that replaced Smite Evil, Detect Evil, and Divine Grace with Studied target, no alignment requirements, and sneak attack, then selling it as the any-alignment Paladin. Sure, it's technically correct, and in some cases it will be effective, but it's not a Paladin anymore.
I'd go with Charisma Modifier free burn per day, plus the free burn at 6th, 10th, and 14th as a partial fix. Also, Overwhelming Power to Blade/Whip damage.
Ignoring the alignment bit, that is kinda what iroran paladins are.
They trade out smite, and get a more standard +1 to attack/damage/ac/etc that scales to +7. They lose the DR breaking stuff, but get ki that lets them do it anyway. Also, mechanics that gives CHA to AC in light armor that bascially amkes you as good as heavy armor (with actual touch AC).
Once you get past the 'its the monk-ish archetype', it is actually pretty good. Keeps a lot of the tanky stuff, can still grab a greatsword and two hand (or maybe a reach weapon, so you can take advantage of the unarmed junk you are saddled with).
And heck, if you take the fluff text at face value, it actually lets you write your own paladin code (ergo, you might be able to lie, cheat, and poison your way to the greater good). Still have to be Lawful Good, but you can move very far away from the temptation to be Lawful Stupid.
So overall...I can kinda say 'they already did that'.
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I just find it ironic that among all kineticists, zombies are the most likely to have an overwhelming soul.
I just find it ironic that among all kineticists, zombies are the most likely to have an overwhelming soul.
I've got soul, but I've not a braaaaaaaain.
So it's an archetype for a class built around a specific mechanic (for good or for ill, gentlemen) that replaces that mechanic and gives you its hamstrung tofu of a substitute.
It would be like a creating a Paladin archetype that replaced Smite Evil, Detect Evil, and Divine Grace with Studied target, no alignment requirements, and sneak attack, then selling it as the any-alignment Paladin. Sure, it's technically correct, and in some cases it will be effective, but it's not a Paladin anymore.
I'd go with Charisma Modifier free burn per day, plus the free burn at 6th, 10th, and 14th as a partial fix. Also, Overwhelming Power to Blade/Whip damage.
In all fairness the archetype serves the specific niche in that it's the only way for an undead character to be a kineticist. That being said, it serves an extremely small niche. One would have to be insane to play an undead kineticist regardless as 99% of the classes usefulness revolves around taking burn, it's pretty much all give and no take.
The change you proposed is very reasonable, but I doubt we'll actually see a kineticist archetype that hoisted it up from the tar pits of nonlethal damage and pointless vancian bookkeeping as many people apparently thought the playtest kineticist was too strong (and amazingly, that it's still too strong in its current state).
No because the rules as FAQ say: Any Con based ability becomes Cha based for undead. All Undead Kinetisists would be Con based.
Thus, other than burn, Undead are fine already. They can't use accept burn, they have to reduce it to use any burn type move.
They really nerfed it with Overwhelming Power: why did it limited it to Blasts not to Kinetic Blade, etc?
Really, only change is their non-Blast has a lower hit/dam, they use Cha, and a 3 times/day they can lower Burn by 1 for Wild Talents at level 20.
I would expand Overwhelming power to make it viable.
The damage bonus doesn't apply to blades for anyone, and the accuracy applies to blades for overwhelming souls.
The primary benefit of the archetype is to allow viable math for a character who literally either can't or won't use burn ever as a regular kineticist, not even for defenses (in some cases, the character can't take burn due to other choices, like being undead), which is why it's crucial to apply that accuracy bonus everywhere for overwhelming power.
Secondarily, it allows for some interesting face builds with skilled kineticist, undead builds, and multiclass builds with Cha classes.
Overwhelming soul isn't for every character. If you aren't interested in Charisma at all and you were going to use burn at least enough to fill up elemental overflow each day, in the vast majority of situations you should probably be playing a baseline kineticist.
EDIT: Lemeres ninjaed me with similar answers. Well played sir!
The archetype really missed the mark for me. I REALLY loathe the burn mechanic so an archetype without it was welcomed but the method of doing do sidestepped the reason I disliked it SO much. I hates that I had to trade the benefit of my high stat [con to HP] for abilities as it seemed like a wizard that has to spend skill points to learn spells...
Changing it into cha... This would have been interesting ON IT'S OWN as an option for face type players and undead. Linking it to the non-burn option mad me very sad. I'd have preferred it worked like the busker and juggler archetypes for the bard: complimentary archetypes than can be combined for those that want/need both. Making a cha main stat archetype and a non-burn archetype would have made many more people happy IMO.
I'm trying out an overwhelming soul to see how it all works out in practice but the whole cha thing just rubs me the wrong way.
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I'd have preferred it worked like the busker and juggler archetypes for the bard: complimentary archetypes than can be combined for those that want/need both.
Hate to break it to you, but busker and juggler are not compatible archetypes.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level, a juggler gains evasion, as the rogue class feature of the same name. At 12th level, he gains improved evasion, as the rogue advanced talent.
This ability replaces well-versed and soothing performance.
Soothing performance is a performance type, and:
Bardic Performance: Buskers do not gain the bardic performance ability or any of its performance types, except as noted below.
It would be like a creating a Paladin archetype that replaced Smite Evil, Detect Evil, and Divine Grace with Studied target, no alignment requirements, and sneak attack, then selling it as the any-alignment Paladin. Sure, it's technically correct, and in some cases it will be effective, but it's not a Paladin anymore.Actually, no...
It'd be like taking away all of the Paladin's spells and supernatural abilities, removing the alignment component, giving it one bonus combat feat and then saying it's an alignment-free Paladin... Of course it is! It's barely any better than a freaking fallen Paladin!!!
Oh! And the explanation would be "Now it can be used by constructs and creatures without Cha score. And it 'allows' interesting multiclassing with non-Cha-based classes."
Seriously, I really like Mark's work, but this archetype is s
terrible design.
Take a look at this Paladin Archetype
It gives up divine grace, lay on hands, mercies, and channel energy to be able to speak celestial, have some resistances, and to do summon monster 1 a few times a day.All it keeps is smite.
No because the rules as FAQ say: Any Con based ability becomes Cha based for undead. All Undead Kinetisists would be Con based.
Thus, other than burn, Undead are fine already. They can't use accept burn, they have to reduce it to use any burn type move.
Yes, but burn has other uses- elemental overflow.
The blast is balanced around the idea that you have that to shoot around. That mechanic is designed not only as your stat boosting mechanic, it also replaces the enhancement bonus you cannot get on your nonweapon.
So you either get burn, or go pure fire, since the composite blasts all have a physical element except for blue flame. And if you are pure fire, then you have an obvious problem with anything that laughs at fire (which is a lot of things).