I've seen this in play. It is wildly broken, in a sense...
I believe throwing the Thug archetype into the mix makes it even better...
I'm just glad the person who made this character isn't the GM, because the DC to intimidate isn't all that high...
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Wow, at only lvl 3 a human Thug rogue could have all that (plus either Bludgeoner or Improved Unarmed Strike for lvl 2's Combat Trick), plus could make the player sickened for a round (each round that he hits), giving the player -2 to damage and -4 to attacks, saves, skills, ability checks, repeating ad nauseum :)
A few Thugs with the above abilities, and some with dirty trick, could beat up and knock out the party. Or just humiliate them. But it would at least give a reason they'd wake up in their undergarments in jail.
I have been wanting some annoying enemies to motivate the party to go after certain NPCs, I think I just found it.
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"I weaponize my intimidate checks with Blistering Invective. But I'm a magic casty little gnome, not a big bruiser like some people. I also comedize my intimidation with Versatile Performance and perform: comedy. So I literally set people on fire by insulting their mothers."
"The big down side is that I can't insult them as well if I don't know their language, so I'm constantly learning new languages. I learned Terran just so I could tell an earth elemental, 'Hey boulder balls! Yo mama was a cubic zirconium!'"
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"I weaponize my intimidate checks with Blistering Invective. But I'm a magic casty little gnome, not a big bruiser like some people. I also comedize my intimidation with Versatile Performance and perform: comedy. So I literally set people on fire by insulting their mothers."
"The big down side is that I can't insult them as well if I don't know their language, so I'm constantly learning new languages. I learned Terran just so I could tell an earth elemental, 'Hey boulder balls! Yo mama was a cubic zirconium!'"
Ooh, burn.
Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
You can easily do the first intimidate. The second one is harder (+5), and the third harder still (+10). Have you accounted for that in your build?
/cevah
The general consensus seems to be that the "try again" entry refers to conversational intimidation, not the demoralize function, since the rules draw a distinction between the two things:
Action: Using Intimidate to change an opponent's attitude requires 1 minute of conversation. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
But it could be read to apply.
A few weapon options to consider for this build.
Weapon Special Abilities
Sapping (Dirty Tactics Toolbox)
An extra 2d6 of nonlethal damage has the nice benefit of extending the shaken effect. And it also causes fatigue on a critical hit.
Ominous
Lets you add the weapons enhancement bonus to your Intimidate check. On a critical hit it adds shaken for one minute or more. In some cases this might be longer than the effect that Enforcer provides.
Cruel
Mentioned earlier in the thread. Adding sickened on top of shaken is really nice.
Weapon Types
Since sapping, ominous, and enforcer all add conditions on critical hits and enforcer's duration is based on damage, high critical threat ranges are important.
For Blade of Mercy you need a slashing weapon. The cutlass, elven curve blade, falchion, fauchard, katana, kukri, nodachi, rhoka, scimitar, urumi, and wakizashi all have a threat range of 18-20. For Bludgeoner there are the dan bong, heavy flail, nine-section whip, and sansetsukon which all have a threat range of 19-20.
One interesting multiclass combo is to cross 4 Thug-Scout Rogue - or maybe Ninja - to gain Ki Pool and Vanishing Trick, and take enough Fighter (maybe Weaponmaster to pick up more weapon training) for the bonus combat feats so that it's easy to grab Shatter Defenses and Cornugon Smash and you can go the usual strength-based two-handed smasher style fighter with armor.
All spare normal feats are stacked into Extra Ki so that there's plenty of swift-action invisibility Vanishing Trick available. Put it all together and you can charge with Scout and Thug and Cornugon Smash for a shaken and sickened sneak attack, then vanish as your turn ends. Next round, you reappear with another sneak attack while triggering Shatter Defenses, so that the rest of your full attack is sneak attack hits.
The general consensus seems to be that the "try again" entry refers to conversational intimidation, not the demoralize function, since the rules draw a distinction between the two things:
Action: Using Intimidate to change an opponent's attitude requires 1 minute of conversation. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
But it could be read to apply.
I've never had any have this interpretation. I've only seen it that after you intimidate, successful or not, to target them again it's at a +5
I've never had any have this interpretation. I've only seen it that after you intimidate, successful or not, to target them again it's at a +5The general consensus seems to be that the "try again" entry refers to conversational intimidation, not the demoralize function, since the rules draw a distinction between the two things:
Action: Using Intimidate to change an opponent's attitude requires 1 minute of conversation. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
But it could be read to apply.
This is how every GM I have met has interpreted it too.
I also apply +5 after demoralizing, so does my GM when I play. And never felt that the consensus in the forum was anything else
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I always thought the "Try again" for skill checks only applied to trying again after failing the first time. The idea that you'd get that penalty even after succeeding the first time never occurred to me.
I just checked the wording, though, and it is vague enough that I could see someone interpreting that way. I disagree with that interpretation, but I can see it.
If you succeeded and are attempting to intimidate them again wouldn't that be trying again to intimidate them?
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Try Again: Any conditions that apply to successive attempts to use the skill successfully. If the skill doesn't allow you to attempt the same task more than once, or if failure carries an inherent penalty (such as with the Climb skill), you can't take 20. If this paragraph is omitted, the skill can be retried without any inherent penalty other than the additional time required.
Try again means repeated attempts to use the skill, whether the skill check was successful or failed. Repeated Demoralizes will suffer the +5 DC.
I guess 'consensus' was not the word... I stand corrected. Thinking back, I don't really remember it coming up that much either way. I guess in a situation where you're simply maintaining demoralize on a target until the round it dies, it's not typically a major issue.
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Try Again: Any conditions that apply to successive attempts to use the skill successfully. If the skill doesn't allow you to attempt the same task more than once, or if failure carries an inherent penalty (such as with the Climb skill), you can't take 20. If this paragraph is omitted, the skill can be retried without any inherent penalty other than the additional time required.Try again means repeated attempts to use the skill, whether the skill check was successful or failed. Repeated Demoralizes will suffer the +5 DC.
As I said, I can see how the wording is vague enough for your interpretation, but I disagree.
I read "successive attempts to use the skill successfully" as meaning that you're still trying to get your first success. After you succeed the first time, you're no longer trying to use the skill successfully. You already used the skill successfully, and now you're going for two (or more) in a row.
And really, that's even implied by the wording "try again". That's not a phrase that's ever used when somebody is doing something a second time after succeeding the first time. That's the phrase you use to encourage someone who messed up the first time.
After you succeed the first time, you're no longer trying to use the skill successfully. You already used the skill successfully, and now you're trying to use is successfully again. But then I am assuming if you're using the skill you're trying to be successful. Can you use intimidate but trying to fail? maybe that's how you can get around the +5.
It does have relevance for builds not as optimized for intimidate as a half-orc Inquisitor though, which hopefully is going to be a majority of characters trying to demoralize things.
Try Again: Any conditions that apply to successive attempts to use the skill successfully. If the skill doesn't allow you to attempt the same task more than once, or if failure carries an inherent penalty (such as with the Climb skill), you can't take 20. If this paragraph is omitted, the skill can be retried without any inherent penalty other than the additional time required.
Since the paragraph is not omitted, there is a penalty for additional tries. The penalty is the +5 additional. If you did not have that +5, there would be no penalty, and the paragraph would not be there.
I don't see any reasonable way to read it as no +5 the next time around.
/cevah
I don't think that the +5 DC on subsequent attempts even after a successful attempt is a big problem. All 3 of my current PCs use Intimidate a lot. The only one who ever has any trouble hitting the DC has no feats to increase his Intimidate modifier and usually takes a -4 penalty for being Small.
Honestly even with the +5 per attempt I feel kind of lucky if a DM doesn't given me a hassle over trying to demoralize the same foe multiple times. I feel that demoralizing a shaken foe again makes sense since it is something you might do to extend the duration, but some folks think it seems a little odd since the foe is already shaken.
I really like the Enforcer feat. It or Cornugon Smash can allow you to move and still make multiple attacks without having Pounce. One of my PCs often combines Enforcer and Vicious Stomp with Greater Trip to pull off 3 hit combos even when he moves. Even against stuff which can't be tripped he's able to score 2 hits, and the enemy ends up sickened as well as shaken due to his Cruel weapon.
And again, when was the last time you heard anyone use the words or phrases "try again", "retried", or "attempts" to describe someone doing something a second time, after succeeding the first time? These words exist to describe people trying again on something after failing the first time.
Last time I was at a local fair's aisle of games. Even when you win, they want you to try again.
/cevah
So, I'm looking at trying a Brawler centered around Performance combat and Hero's Display. Anyone tried it? Any reccomendations?
So, I'm looking at trying a Brawler centered around Performance combat and Hero's Display. Anyone tried it? Any reccomendations?
I've looked at Performance builds, and I gotta say that four levels of Thug-Scout Rogue crossed with Fighter can do some hilarious things. Scout gets to sneak attack on a charge, Thug gets to inflict the sickened condition on a sneak attack and increase all fear effects by an extra round.
Where Fighter comes in is with the bonus feats needed to do things like Masterful Display: Hero's Display + Mocking Dance. So you can make a Scout Charge sneak attack, inflict sickened and Slow Reactions on your target (no AoO's allowed), and then spend a swift action to intimidate-bomb the area while backing away from your target, who has no AoO. Your target either chases you and eats a full attack next round, or they don't chase you and you smoke them with another Scout charge. Also, on any round you make a full attack and strike twice, you can trigger your terrifying-escape-dance.
If you use a reach weapon, you get to consistently back off and present your reach advantage, and Slow Reactions becomes more optional since you're probably out of AoO reach when backing away anyhow. The only drawback is that if you need to use a 5-step, you can't then use Mocking Dance.
Lastly, it's possible to use Rogue Talents to pick up the Shadow Clone Ninja Trick; besides the awesomeness of gaining a Ki-powered minor Mirror Image effect to go with sneak-charge-sniping with a polearm, you can call the build 'The Mocking Shadow'.
Only works if you have some class ability that grants you a ki pool:
"Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool."
So, unless you have a ki pool from somewhere, you can take Shadow Clone, but not be able to use it.
Rogue Talent: Ki Pool! You would want either some wisdom or an Extra Ki feat or both, but it's totally doable - you don't need that many ki/day for Shadow Clone to be very worthwhile.