They nerfed Litany of Sloth? Why?
"The target cannot make attacks of opportunity or cast spells defensively."
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As for the diety thing...
Remember that the Great Olds Ones ans such are.feared by Golarian Gods... they are known for wiping out planets...
And Cthulhu is a CR 30.
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Is that a portrait of Patrick Stewart with hair as an elven vampire?They nerfed Litany of Sloth? Why?"The target cannot make attacks of opportunity or cast spells defensively."
Goddamit.
Now I can't unsee it.
Is that a portrait of Patrick Stewart with hair as an elven vampire?They nerfed Litany of Sloth? Why?"The target cannot make attacks of opportunity or cast spells defensively."
First result in Google Image Search of "scheming wizard", the art sorta looks like it's from a 3e book.
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They nerfed Litany of Sloth? Why?"The target cannot make attacks of opportunity or cast spells defensively."
The anti martial agenda is real 0…0
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Ahhhh, home again! :D
On the subject of monsters vs PCs and who can blow their rolls the fastest and stuff, I'd like to point out something really funny concerning that (and I admit it's not directly concerning PvP at the moment but it's interesting from a balance perspective).
Monster resources tend to come in the following flavors (sometimes in any combination): At-will, X/day, or strait up casting.
Most monsters with things like SLAs simply have relatively minor abilities at-will. These are typically their throw-away and/or spam abilities. Then they have a few "big guns" that have between 1-3 uses per day. They're pretty much made with the idea that they're going to go nova.
Whereas the PC classes tend to have more resources and if they go nova, well they might not burn hotter but they're going to burn longer (sure, a wizard's got about 3/day of his highest tier of spells but he's got another 3-4 of his next highest which are probably about as good, and another 4-5 of his next highest which are probably reaaaaally benefiting from free-scaling right now).
One of the most jarring things as a GM who experiments with including "monsters" (there's no real distinction between not-monsters and monsters) in parties is the reliance upon using certain abilities more or less infinitely while having a scant few big guns. For example, a succubus sits pretty well in a 7th-8th level party but can really throw your expectations for a loop (at-will self-only greater teleport, ethereal jaunt, and charm monster are like "whoa, I never expected that!") and it can force you to think about the game in a lot of ways normal PCs won't make you think about. :P
As for individual combats though, I've found they tend to be pretty on par with the "good" classes in the core rulebook (more or less anything but Fighter, Rogue, and Monk).
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Yes, that is true, but then, we haven't established the CR system vs certain point buys or rolling for stats.
Pathfinder Adventure Paths, one of paizo's biggest subscription products, have an inherent base assumption of a 15 point buy.
Compare that to Pathfinder Society Modules, which is also a big product in the paizo market, that assume a 20 point buy.
Well the standard point buy as defined by the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is 15 Point Buy. Which is also the same point buy used by heroic NPCs, which means that when being played by the book so to speak, there is actually no difference between a PC and an NPC of equal level aside from gear allotment (NPC-gear levels mean your CR is equal to level-1, while PC-gear means it's equal to level).
There is a huge gap in the level of game-play there. From what I've seen, however, most APs (with the exception of a few "notorious" experimental APs like Wrath of the Righteous) are the closest to the game balance that Pathfinder actually wishes to attempt at maintaining. So if you throw a 20 point buy build party into any AP, with a team of relatively experienced players who can optimize relatively well, you end up with people wanting to "up the challenge" or "fix the AP" in the community boards with altered monster stats.
Who does all this altering and re-balancing? The GMs of home games. If you stick to the 15 point buy, however, the GM becomes a referee instead of a game designer, as the encounters, tactics, and npcs are already spelled out for him like a script.
That was more my point. There's much more to a balanced game than class balance and game mechanics that just one thing. If you throw a 40 point buy fighter, wizard, cleric, and rogue into an AP, they will have a much easier time than a 15 point buy monk, paladin, barbarian, sorcerer.
Perhaps but there's diminishing returns on point buy because of how much more expensive stuff gets. Over the course of your career it usually amounts to a +5% to a few other things or some more skill points but the upper limits aren't changed very much (and there's honestly precious little difference in potential between a wizard with a 15 Strength and one with a 7 Strength). It does mean that buying an 18 at the start isn't painful (where in 15 PB you're probably better off aiming for 14-16 before racials). Not really enough to swing the CR as the differences are less than those provided by templates (it's definitely far less than the difference of the Advanced simple template), and I've made a few people very fond of 15 PB in the process (as to their surprise stepping down from 25 to 15 wasn't the nerfbat they were expecting).
It's those factors that add up to the make the entire game either balanced or not. Not JUST class balance. Which yes, some people see class balance or imbalance as a huge disgrace that needs to be fixed, other people refuse to see the imbalance, and then there are people like me who see the class imbalance and just shrug. In the end, what matters most isn't the game balance really. If that was the case we would all be playing chess or checkers or something more classically balanced. What matters is whether or not this is the system you want to play.If you want to house-rule it to the point that it's vaguely d20 anymore, great!
Hold up, I'll let you finish but...
You realize that we've been playing d20 for 15 years now, right? D20 has been the heart of the open gaming revolution. 3E, that is 3.0 was the first D20 game. We have gone through three different iterations of 3rd Edition, or 1/5 years (though PF might be drag it out longer). Balance has been constantly shifting and changing, with designers (both professional and volunteer) inching the game in different directions. Improving class balance does diddly to threaten the d20 system. Furthering balance over time only strengthens the game. Back in 3.0, Rangers and Paladins and Barbarians were crap. Barbarians were kinda less crap. Fighters were...actually not that bad by comparison to their peers (they all just kinda sucked but the game mechanics elsewhere in the d20 system made fighters feel better than they do today).
Paladins, Rangers, and Barbarians have been getting steady improvements and upgrades through the editions. They're sitting at a really nice place right now where they are well balanced between one-another, each having certain pros and cons, each able to fill the martial party member role in slightly different ways, and so forth. They are different but pretty equal all things considered.
All this has done is made things like Paladin actually matter. In 3.x, if you wanted to play a Paladin, the best option you had was to take a cleric, file the nameplate off, write "Paladin" in its place, and take off. Now, you can still do that but you could also just play a Paladin and not be gimped for doing so. I'm 100% happy with that (I think pallies can stand a bit more polishing but they are already pretty beautiful).
Do what's fun for you and your group. But, realize there is much more to a balanced game than just class mechanics, and depending on whether or not it's a home game or a pre-written adventure, it's not as PVP as the OP implies. I mean, since when does the barbarian get dragon's breath that has a DC based on Con? Before kineticists, not too many classes had Con as a main DC attribute.
Class composition means a lot more to balance than point buy does, that's for sure. The difference between a Ranger and a Fighter in terms of sheer numbers and opportunities far outweigh even an extra +2 in your main stat or +5% to your saves, for example. At high levels, the difference in PB is pretty negligible, but class is not.
As for the diety thing...
Remember that the Great Olds Ones ans such are.feared by Golarian Gods... they are known for wiping out planets...
And Cthulhu is a CR 30.
Power is not what bugs me with gods usually in RPGs , you want to say they have infinte power? That is fine.
What i cant understand trully is how their brains work.
A cleric prays to it , the god hears it and grants him/her power , he/she is also paying attention to what the clerics do and dont so that he/she may even remove said powers , there is also spells like commune to "speak" with said gods...
All that is going on for the entire material plane at the same time. They take multitasking to a whole new level.
They should be some weird creatures that mortals couldnt even being to understand , not a drinking buddy like Cayden.
They should be some weird creatures that mortals couldnt even being to understand , not a drinking buddy like Cayden.
Agreed. I think something like the Starstone ascends someone to entirely new heights of existence. That's part of the reason (I think) JJ and common explanations of gods present them as being incomprehensible. They really are when you think through just a smidge of what the practical reality would be like for one. I'm also supportive of PCs not remaining PCs if they ever ascend -or- having the entire campaign be focused on them being deities. I don't see too many ways to cleanly transition.
I really would like to see this where this standard expectation of 15 Point Buy for Adventure Paths comes from.
Seriously.
It must be noted, somewhere.
Well, there's this.
The number of points you have to spend using the purchase method depends on the type of campaign you are playing. The standard value for a character is 15 points. Average nonplayer characters (NPCs) are typically built using as few as 3 points. See Table: Ability Score Points for a number of possible point values depending on the style of campaign. The purchase method emphasizes player choice and creates equally balanced characters.
Unless it explicitly says it isn't 15 PB, it is. Yeah?
Anyway, I'd like to take a moment to thank those on this board for an interesting couple of days. I find it hilarious this has so far strayed from the original topic into what Cthulhu's CR is and comparing him to gods, laughing out loud.
Ashiel, you make good points, and I feel I made a few good points as well. It's at this point I'll just agree to disagree, though I have changed a few ways of my thinking. I think the main difference here is, I'm not really looking for a fix to this problem :). Nor any problem. If the game is broken, eh?
I find the power levels of classes more of a draw than a hindrance. Sure, fighters are broken, rogues suck, what have you. But when I just want to turn my brain off and not really track per day resources or spells, good ol' fighter is there for my old school dungeon crawling. Give me my longsword, my shortsword and dagger, my tower sheild, my ten foot pole, my greatsword, and my buckler and light steel shield (with alot of extra knick knacks to boot) and I'm a happy camper most days. If I want to break the game, or feel like a sexy shoeless god of war, it's not ranger I turn to, it's druid. Feel the might of my bear hugs!
Is the game PVP? I still believe yes and no. Yes ESPECIALLY if the DM uses the same mechanics as the players to make humanoid ratfolk rogues. (if you think Tucker's Kobolds are dangerous, try Kevin's Ratfolk, *shudder* now you aren't just in cramped spaces, you're in cramped spaces, single file, and somehow the front and last guy in line can still get flanked.)
Is the game supposed to be thought of as PVP? Well, not really. The DM (a good DM at least) is there to help tell a story and be a referee. He absolutely should play 70% of encounters with kids gloves. But that 30% of the time, when the party is in the lair of the final story arc's villains, there should be a few deaths and alot of drama. (and preferably some John Williams star-wars music in the background for added effect. I am so cheesy sometimes.)
I think in the end, we all love this game a bit too much some days and put far too much emotion into it for our own good. But hey, if we weren't passionate about Pathfinder, we wouldn't beat these disparity problems over the head like a long dead horse skeleton.
May all your attack rolls be crits, and all your loot APL + 10 rated. Happy gaming everyone.
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Anyway, I'd like to take a moment to thank those on this board for an interesting couple of days. I find it hilarious this has so far strayed from the original topic into what Cthulhu's CR is and comparing him to gods, laughing out loud.
Cthulu as written's kind of a weeny too. :P
Ashiel, you make good points, and I feel I made a few good points as well. It's at this point I'll just agree to disagree, though I have changed a few ways of my thinking. I think the main difference here is, I'm not really looking for a fix to this problem :). Nor any problem. If the game is broken, eh?
That's cool. Not everyone cares but I feel like everyone has the right to know. :)
I find the power levels of classes more of a draw than a hindrance. Sure, fighters are broken, rogues suck, what have you. But when I just want to turn my brain off and not really track per day resources or spells, good ol' fighter is there for my old school dungeon crawling. Give me my longsword, my shortsword and dagger, my tower sheild, my ten foot pole, my greatsword, and my buckler and light steel shield (with alot of extra knick knacks to boot) and I'm a happy camper most days.
It's funny that you bring this up. There's nothing at all wrong with the notion of having a class that doesn't use resources or whatever. Fighters haven't always been this bad though and understanding why they are bad would be a great step towards making them tons less bad and I dare even say good.
For example, pre-3E, Fighters actually had really good saves (like really, really good), were pretty amazing at dealing damage, and could move and attack (something all martials need to be able to do really). In Pathfinder, we can look at the theater that the fighters must play in and realize things like...
1. Betters saves, not just good saves, but scaling saves across the board would be nice (kind of like superstition for barbarians).
2. Resistances or immunities to certain bad status ailments, or the ability to shrug off movement issues like Conan shouting "By Crom!".
3. Having scaling hit and damage bonuses that aren't anchored to a specific type of weapon (which not only means you can't benefit from cool loot if it's not the right type but also makes it easier to negate you and flies against the versatile combat master the class is described as being).
4. Having tower shields that aren't terrible (no, really, they can get you killed because there's no legal way in the rules to ever get their max dex higher than +1, even Armor Training doesn't help).
You could totally have the fighter be the "just passives" class. But that doesn't mean they have to be bad at it. Their role could be "the perfect buff-target" as opposed to "buff to competence".
If I want to break the game, or feel like a sexy shoeless god of war, it's not ranger I turn to, it's druid. Feel the might of my bear hugs!
Rangers actually fight better than wildshaped druids in terms of issuing serious punishment. Druids are significantly more frightening casters though. In 3.5, druids won out over rangers everywhere. This is an example of that evolving balance I was talking about and it's a good thing.
Is the game PVP? I still believe yes and no. Yes ESPECIALLY if the DM uses the same mechanics as the players to make humanoid ratfolk rogues. (if you think Tucker's Kobolds are dangerous, try Kevin's Ratfolk, *shudder* now you aren't just in cramped spaces, you're in cramped spaces, single file, and somehow the front and last guy in line can still get flanked.)
Is the game supposed to be thought of as PVP? Well, not really. The DM (a good DM at least) is there to help tell a story and be a referee. He absolutely should play 70% of encounters with kids gloves. But that 30% of the time, when the party is in the lair of the final story arc's villains, there should be a few deaths and alot of drama. (and preferably some John Williams star-wars music in the background for added effect. I am so cheesy sometimes.)
I think in the end, we all love this...
Ever play Final Fantasy Tactics? It's one of my favorite games ever. Mechanically speaking it is a very elaborate option-filled wargame of small teams of about 5 people engaging other teams of about 5 people in skirmishes all over the place. It's a lot of fun in that respect.
It's also a game with a rather epic story of political and social unrest, magical conspiracies, false prophets, corrupted churches, familial betrayals, doing what's right in the face of adversity, and loyalty of friends. It has choices to be made and many traditional RPG elements. It has beautiful music and themes, a rich history laid out in the game that you can learn about as time progresses (including giving a full real-time updating biography on even minor characters who never even appear in combat).
Saying Final Fantasy Tactics is a wargame should not be taken to mean that all of the other stuff doesn't matter. In the same sense, it is the same reason why my saying that Pathfinder or d20 in general is PvP mechanics should not be construed to suggest that it is somehow lesser or devoid of things like story, choices, or any other aspect of the game is somehow less important.
If anything all of it adds together to make a truly wonderful game. Discussing one aspect of that game does not and should not somehow devalue the other aspects of the game, even if they are being put on the back burner momentarily for the purpose of a single discussion.
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4. Having tower shields that aren't terrible (no, really, they can get you killed because there's no legal way in the rules to ever get their max dex higher than +1, even Armor Training doesn't help).Nitpicky man here to save the day, tower shield specialist
Which isn't a fighter anymore in the same way a kensai wasn't a fighter in Baldur's Gate II. It also does no favors since it loses your other class features which makes the net result a wash.
Likewise, it doesn't do you much good to trade out armor training for tower shield training as either way either your heavy armor or your tower shield is gimping you. Heavy armor just happens to be the better choice most of the time.
EDIT: Also by taking tower shield specialist you're gimping your ability to fight to less than that of a bard's as you lose your scaling bonuses to hit and damage with weapons, leaving you at only BAB plus (maybe) weapon focus feats. That's horrible for a martial. Paladins do better simply by casting divine favor (a 1st level spell).
One can always try homebrew material.
Not that I'd shameless promote my own work... Unless you're interested, of course
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4. Having tower shields that aren't terrible (no, really, they can get you killed because there's no legal way in the rules to ever get their max dex higher than +1, even Armor Training doesn't help).Nitpicky man here to save the day, tower shield specialistWhich isn't a fighter anymore in the same way a kensai wasn't a fighter in Baldur's Gate II. It also does no favors since it loses your other class features which makes the net result a wash.
Likewise, it doesn't do you much good to trade out armor training for tower shield training as either way either your heavy armor or your tower shield is gimping you. Heavy armor just happens to be the better choice most of the time.
EDIT: Also by taking tower shield specialist you're gimping your ability to fight to less than that of a bard's as you lose your scaling bonuses to hit and damage with weapons, leaving you at only BAB plus (maybe) weapon focus feats. That's horrible for a martial. Paladins do better simply by casting divine favor (a 1st level spell).
CWheezy was only pointing out that technically, you can raise your max Dex to AC with tower shield. I don't think he intended to even imply that it was a good archetype...
EDIT: Ninja Inquisitor'ed by CWheezy himself... ¬¬'
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I wish I could say that the tower shield fighter was at least good (it's actually worse than the normal fighter IMHO). :(
You said no rules legal way to lower acp and raise dex on a tower shield, I just wanted to say there is in fact a rules legal way.
True that. I stand corrected. :)
I make zero comments on power or whatever, but saying a fighter archetype isn't a fighter any more I think is wrong.
Well I would pose the question "what makes it a fighter"? You've gotten rid of bravery, weapon training, and armor training. Those are the only class unique class features a fighter has.
About the only thing they have in common other than "barebones martial stats" is that they technically qualify for "Fighter" feats.
Fighters only hit tier 4 after trading away most of their class features. Barring that they are crb rogue/monk bad.
They needed an Unchained facelift. Well atleast my martial master mutagen warrior no longer needs 13 int (thanks stamina).
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I think replacing armor training with a slightly different armor training isn't that much of a difference. They still get the training, just for shields, like some archetypes don't get weapon training they get "lance training" or something
The thing is, when an archetype changes the entire role of a character along with most of its iconic features, is it really the same class in anything but name alone?
Like, if make an archetype for wizard that doesn't cast spells but instead converts all of its spell slots into passive buffs that make him a martial powerhouse (such as being able to convert spell slots into bonus hit, bonus armor, bonus damage, bonus HP, bonus saves, etc) and grant his familiar similar benefits, that would be a pretty crazy cool archetype. But...it's not really a wizard anymore. :|
On the Subject of Tower Shield Specialist
I was re-reading this archetype and I'm astounded by how bad it is. I hadn't even realized how horrible it was but it's nothing but the deepest of traps. Tower Shield Training actually doesn't do anything beneficial for the Fighter, because it says the Fighter gets armor training as normal except armor training gets better when the Fighter is using a tower shield (reducing the penalties from his armor and improving the max dex of his armor) and reverts to normal armor training when he's not. After really reading it (as opposed to skimming it before) I realized this ability is useless aside from slightly lowering your total armor check penalty because it doesn't increase your max-dex allowance for the shield.
So it works like this:
Fighter in Full Plate w/ Armor Training I: +2 Max Dex.
Fighter in Full Plate w/ Tower Shield Training I: +2 Max Dex.
Fighter in Full Plate w/ Tower Shield Training I and Tower Shield: +1 Max Dex (but his full plate has +4 Max Dex now).
Aside from this gross oversight, Tower Shield Specialist doesn't play much like a fighter. You lose what little a fighter has to bring towards defeating enemies because you're always far behind even a regular fighter for using a tower shield (you have a -2 to hit until 5th level, and at that point you're -1 to hit and damage behind a regular fighter, up to -6 to hit and damage behind a regular fighter.
The defensive abilities you get outside of destroying your AC are pretty meh. The bonus reflex saves only apply to burst effects (so spreads, traps, and stuff aren't any good; it's useless vs dragon breath; it doesn't even work vs fireballs). Immediate re-position is useless and can't even be used for the one thing you would actually use it for (interrupting an attack). You lose your higher weapon training and weapon mastery for evasion. :|
This entire page in the book was wasted. It could have been a killer piece of Wayne Reynolds are just randomly pasted into the book right here.
/start_derail
I really would like to see this where this standard expectation of 15 Point Buy for Adventure Paths comes from.
Seriously.
It must be noted, somewhere.
One of our philosophies for the APs is that we adopt a "middle of the road" design for them, so that they're average. New groups and experienced groups therefore have roughly equal amounts of work for the GM to adapt things to his/her style of play, since we assume a midline baseline. That's why we assume Medium XP and the standard 15 point buy, and it's also why we follow the core assumption of encounter difficulty spread.
/end_derail
As for the diety thing...
Remember that the Great Olds Ones ans such are.feared by Golarian Gods... they are known for wiping out planets...
And Cthulhu is a CR 30.
Power is not what bugs me with gods usually in RPGs , you want to say they have infinte power? That is fine.
What i cant understand trully is how their brains work.
A cleric prays to it , the god hears it and grants him/her power , he/she is also paying attention to what the clerics do and dont so that he/she may even remove said powers , there is also spells like commune to "speak" with said gods...
All that is going on for the entire material plane at the same time. They take multitasking to a whole new level.
They should be some weird creatures that mortals couldnt even being to understand , not a drinking buddy like Cayden.
Think of a god not as a single entity but a massive yet diffuse intellectual presence that not only knows all of and governs but IS a fundamental part of reality. Sarenrae is literally present and active with each act of forgiveness and each churning of a campfire. Norgorber is there in some small way when a secret is withheld from a companion or a murder takes place. Gorrum is looking at every single battlefield of all sizes on all realms from all angles and Nethys is clapping in glee with every single spark of magic in existence all the time. Gods probably do have one central mind, but it's essentially hard-wired into about a dozen different major and minor frequencies in reality that allows autonomous reactions to various stimuli (might explain why fate just called it a day when Aroden got forcibly removed from the picture). Proper subject prays for spells = engage spell-granting subroutine, spell cast to request knowledge = temporary access to archives allowed. So really, when you're getting spells or answers like that, you're not speaking to the god's consciousness and ego but their highly developed and well-organized autonomic nervous system that's evaluating what you're ready to see. Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood does a good job of giving a visual example (here be spoilers, mateys!)
Is it normal to think that what god is, is very different from any avatar they might take to appear momentarily?
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Like, if make an archetype for wizard that doesn't cast spells but instead converts all of its spell slots into passive buffs that make him a martial powerhouse (such as being able to convert spell slots into bonus hit, bonus armor, bonus damage, bonus HP, bonus saves, etc) and grant his familiar similar benefits, that would be a pretty crazy cool archetype. But...it's not really a wizard anymore. :|
Yeah in that case but this case is just like, armor training lol, fighter still moves and attacks or full attacks, being a tower shield specialist doesn't change any of that imo.
For an example of what I consider basically being a brand new class, the stonelord paladin archetype is basically a new class
I admit to being sad that said fighter archetype is worse than the warrior NPC class in most every way, CR for CR. Albeit the regular fighter is too, but using a tower shield makes them more limited in options than a normal warrior. :|
I'm not bitter about fighters being failures. Nope. Not at all. (3_3)
|
I admit to being sad that said fighter archetype is worse than the warrior NPC class in most every way, CR for CR. Albeit the regular fighter is too, but using a tower shield makes them more limited in options than a normal warrior. :|I'm not bitter about fighters being failures. Nope. Not at all. (3_3)
Yeah - the Pathfinder tower shield makes me sad since I had a pretty awesome tower shield based combatant in late 3.5. In 3.5 it was great, but Pathfinder nerfed pretty hard it when they simplified the mechanics.
So I just looked up the Tower Shield Specialist. What the utter hell is the point of Immediate Repositioning if you can't use it to try and block an attack?! Seriously, what does it actually do? I can't figure it out.
To make it easier to hit you since you are clearly a masochist. Why else would you play the archetype. Jk. From the look of it the archetype suffers from seriously rushed/ poor editting. Where the mechanics no longer match up with the intended design goals.
To make it easier to hit you since you are clearly a masochist. Why else would you play the archetype. Jk. From the look of it the archetype suffers from seriously rushed/ poor editting. Where the mechanics no longer match up with the intended design goals.
That is pretty much the story for like... half their archetypes...
To make it easier to hit you since you are clearly a masochist. Why else would you play the archetype. Jk. From the look of it the archetype suffers from seriously rushed/ poor editting. Where the mechanics no longer match up with the intended design goals.That is pretty much the story for like... half their archetypes...
Half? That's generous. Pathfinder follows Sturgeon's law pretty hard. 90% of options are crap, and that includes archetypes. Definitely more than half of them are crap, at the very least.
Ironically, the Phalanx Soldier is a better tower shield user than the tower shield specialist...
Okay. Here we go:
Fighter (level 3) vs Wizard (level 3)
I'm going to use 2 builds that were actually used in one of my games at these levels. These are equally optimized builds.
Wizard, Conjuration Specialist (one of the most powerful types)
Human
HP 16 (Rolls: +13 (6+3+4) +3 from favored class)
AC 14 (3 from dex, 1 from an armored kilt)
Int 19
Init: +7 (+3 from Dex, +4 from Familiar (A Hare))
Feats: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Spell Specialization: Conjuration, Wizard's Tattoo: ConjurationSpells Prepared:
1st Level: Mage Armor, Shield, Color Spray, Summon Monster I,
2nd Level: Invisibility, Summon Monster II, Summon Monster IIFighter Loadout 1
"The Archer"Human
HP 30 (Rolls: +21 (10+5+6) +3 (from favored class) +6 (Con bonus))
AC 18 (4 from Dex, +4 (Hide Armor (Dex allowed is +5 due to armor training))
Init: +8 (+4 from Dex, +4 from Improved Init)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus Longbow, Deadly Aim, Improved InitiativeSaves:
Fort +3, Reflex +5, Will +0 (-1 from Wisdom)
Weapon: Masterwork Composite Longbow (+1) (+9 to hit 1d8+1 Damage)Fight: (Note, I'll be using average rolls for all of this to remove variance)
Initiative:
Wizard 17
Fighter 18The battle starts at 30 feet
Round 1:
The Fighter closes to 15 feet, readies an action to shoot if the Wizard attempts to cast.The Wizard retreats 30 feet and attempts to cast invisibility.
The Fighter shoots. The shot hits (18 (10+8) vs AC 14) and does 7 damage to the Wizard (4+1+2) the Wizard is now at 9 HP. The Wizard rolls concentration 16 (10+6) vs DC 19, the Wizard's spell fails.
Round 2
The Fighter uses a full attack action. The shot hits (16 (10+6) vs AC 14) and does 7 damage, (4+1+2) to the Wizard, the Wizard is at 2 HP, the second shot (Rapid Shot) hits (16 (10+6) vs AC 14) and also does 7 damage, the Wizard is at -5 AC. The Archer wins.
This assumes that this wizard is an idiot. He has far more options than walk and casts and thus triggering the readied action. He can run for 120 ft putting him outside your 1st range and end. If you Run to follow, he's free to cast. Full attack? your established average rolls don't kill, free to cast. Walk and ready again? Run again and fall prone for a net of -4 from range penalty and +4 AC vs Range, which on the following turn nets him an effective AC 21, outside your average to hit to assure a hit. Once invisible he's free to summon his critters and I'm not seeing a melee weapon on that stat block nor am I seeing Weapon Finesse or Improved unarmed Strike. From what I see, it's far from a 50/50
This does not shock me in the least. Clearly you can only oblige the martial character by making things easy for him and inviting attacks.
But, moving too far away would be metagaming, clearly. Because there's obviously no way the mage could guess that the fighter decided not to shoot him for a reason. No way at all. Nope. Unpossible. Fighter is smarter than wizard, wizard loses. Argument settled.
Also, why the hell isn't this guy using his mage armor and shield? He clearly knew a fight was coming based on the setup. Mage should have an AC of 19, not 16. Meaning those arrows miss clean on average rolls. But clearly, the wizard is too stupid to prepare for a fight he knows is coming.
The proposed fight was assumed equal footing. No buffs either side. If you ignore the "fighter has all combat feats and wizard has zero usable feats". Also, what the hell is Wizard Tattoo? I'm not seeing this on the SRD.
I like the revised action economy. It helps martials out.
A twf rogue can move and make 4 attacks, helps negate the 5ft step out of flanks any medium creature can do.
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But, moving too far away would be metagaming, clearly. Because there's obviously no way the mage could guess that the fighter decided not to shoot him for a reason. No way at all. Nope. Unpossible. Fighter is smarter than wizard, wizard loses. Argument settled.
Right?
I mean... How could the Int 19 Wizard guess that the bow-wielding Fighter would try to shoot him?
Seriously though, what the heck is "Wizard's Tattoo: Conjuration"? It's listed as a feat and all I'm really finding a crafting feat and even then the example tattoos don't have school affiliations, just strengths.
Mage's Tattoo might be what they meant.
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Mage's Tattoo might be what they meant.
Also known as Varisian Tattoo, for those more accustomed to the official content. ^_^