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Never allow 3pp!
Seriously that class is crazy good!
So I would sit down with the dragon player and express your concerns. Maybe come up with a solution to tone the class/race down a bit to a sane level of power together.
I mean by the end game you're going to have a Gargantuan PC that could possibly cast as a 10th level sorcerer.
Maybe see if he'll be open to rerolling to a Dragon Disciple?
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Yeah dawg, dragon-dragon. And to answer the OP's question. First off, change your mind about the class, if he whines, he can find another GM. Then tell him not to power game like a jerk. If he complain, see above, if he says he will then doesn't, destroy him, make him regret his life choices. And finally, tell the other chumps to get good. If they wanna whine about being behind, they should seek to better themselves, not bring everyone down. With these steps you'll give the weaker players just enough incentive to improve play while not completely sacrificing concept, and you'll make the power gamer fall down with them learning a lesson in control and humility. But that's just my opinionWait, wait, wait.
Dragon-dragon?
It's like you pulled out the stock suggestions for how to resolve the problem(which are good suggestions), and took them to such extremes that every single one of them became terrible. I have to say that if you were going for that effect then you did a damn good job.
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There are two ways you can play it. First, you can be open and honest with everyone. You can say that the game is unenjoyable for people when some people aren't challenged because it's too easy and the rest of the party isn't challenged because they can't hold a candle to the other combatants. Then tell the group they're coming to come to some kind of mutual compromise and understanding, and let them hammer it out. In a group of mature, decent human beings, this will work.
If you don't think that will work, here's what you do: you take the dragon aside and tell him that Pathfinder groups come in layers. The GM is the middle, and he does the most work, and as an experienced player, he's in the inner layer. And then everyone else is on the outside. It's the responsibility of everyone to keep the game fun for everyone who's further out than them, and to make sure nobody knows what they're doing who isn't equal to or deeper than them. So if he wants to be overpowered relative to the campaign, he better do it in a way that makes the other players think they're the ones who are awesome, and if he continues the way he is, the game will fall apart and nobody will get to have fun.
It's not a perfect method, but if you make him feel like he's part of the cool kids' club, he'll see you, the GM, as a teammate instead of the adversary.
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Call a mulligan.
Tell the player, and the whole table, you're sorry but you did not realize the level of power that the class/race would have and that your asking the player to please play something else. Admit that you did not know the power level at play here and simply admit you screwed up.
If your player is a team player, they will understand and accept your decision. If they do not...well they are having fun at the expense of others (assuming the other players aren't enjoying their overpowered companion), and that simply isn't an acceptable situation.
If the future, I would highly suggest that as a GM you always add a caveat to anything that if something is too powerful or unbalances the game you reserve the right to ask them to change or find a new game.
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To qualify my opinion a little bit, it sounds like in the group you're playing with, the dragon will have no problem creating another character who, while within standard core rules, is unusually powerful relative to the rest of the group.
I do not think takebacksies on the dragon class is enough to fix your group dynamic.
That class is seriously unbalanced, full BAB, all good saves d12 HP, good special abilities at every level, decent skills and skill points, and worst of all growing larger every 4 levels. This should have never been allowed except in a campaign where everyone is running a similarly powerful character. Even the half celestial and half fiend templates may not be powerful enough to match it.
Simply ask the player to make a new character. If you think the problems are bad now they are going to get much worse. By 12th level this character is going to be so much more powerful than the other characters it’s not even funny.
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Call a mulligan.
Tell the player, and the whole table, you're sorry but you did not realize the level of power that the class/race would have and that your asking the player to please play something else. Admit that you did not know the power level at play here and simply admit you screwed up.
If your player is a team player, they will understand and accept your decision. If they do not...well they are having fun at the expense of others (assuming the other players aren't enjoying their overpowered companion), and that simply isn't an acceptable situation.
If the future, I would highly suggest that as a GM you always add a caveat to anything that if something is too powerful or unbalances the game you reserve the right to ask them to change or find a new game.
QFT.
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Whenever someone in the party that is more power than the others in my game. I either give other players unique items that only they can use, and those items can do things that the OP character can't do. I find fair and fun is very important for my games, so I tend to balance my games perfectly and precisely all the time. If a player has the spotlight for couple of session, I will make sure others get some. Druid feel useless, make an encounter where you need create water or you will die very soon. Always work for me, and my players always have good times.
I have encountered this, and have been guilty of this -it happens. I have been removed from a group, and I have lost players -this is the natural consequence this path inevitably leads to unless the rest of the group (be they fellow players or your own as a DM) is comfortable with gaming this hard and inadvertently rendering the rest of the party inconsequential either by design of said player, or a unintended result. Either way will result in alienation.
You have made an error, please do not inflate it beyond that. The choice was made in good faith.
To address the 3PP points being raised: it depends on what you are comfortable with -yes, they are made by experts. They also allow many things that the core publisher did not intend to bring the franchise in the direction of, or were not willing to invest the franchise in themselves. Core Paizo can be just as exploited -it is all up to the player how much effort and research they wish to exert on the game. Consequently, they also pay a price if they fail to consider the rest of the group.
My experience dealing with this as a DM: 3.5 campaign that I began in Eberron was seeded by a player who wanted to be a Red Dragon. Since I wanted to campaign to proceed; I met him halfway and started the seed at L11 (literally that character hatching). It could've been played well, but immediately the flying and reusable breath weapon along with stat boosts were what the player was obviously after. He brought in equally toxic friends who were content to loot the world, not understanding I would let them hang themselves on their own devices. If the player does it to support the whole group, let it roll, just challenge them specifically to highlight their prowess -this raises the CR to what will challenge that player and avoids punishing the other players. Make it an
'honor' that they are the ones that draw threat. Deliberately throw key points where other players can steer the campaign as well to balance this. "It's Steve's turn to decide," etc.
In that campaign, the other players took action on their own(spontaneous in-game assassination ^_^ -a confused character can be very dangerous) and the group split into two teams: one that enjoyed their shenanigans and made their own campaign, and the ones who were content to roll along and not pillage society. We are parallel crews on post now, and periodically I still enjoy contact with the powergamers as we exchange ideas and off all things, even ask for my input on builds.
As a player, I have been guilty of powergaming as well. Stacking archetypes, using racial trait options, variant multi-classing, and the DM mistake of tier-awarding player Mythic aspects based on performance where not everybody can shine in fluff as well as crunch (sounds egotistical, I am aware and wary of), led to severe game imbalances that I did nothing to prevent -I may not have been DPS King, but through effects I influenced the battlefield amongst a party that preferred hack & slash. 3PP was not utilized, btw, just a lot of fun research in PFSRD20 as I waited for my Hardbacks to arrive from Amazon.
In-game and in-session I failed to heed signs that the party was becoming afraid of my character (even as a CG, being played as a rebel/vigilante persona) and wary of my number crunching as a player. This was in a party where the other dominant personality was roleplayed LN. A rivalry that went from in-character to in-session. I thought I was guiding the group where it needed to go, when they were enjoying the main point of RPGs: to have fun. Even if fun is playing grabass and dawdling, its still fun, I failed to realize then because that simply was not my style and campaign expectation.
Long story short, the DM had to make a choice outside of the game, and I had to go. I was not willing to alter my play style because of personal preference and they were unable to cope with my character. The DM tried to do damage control by buffing the PCs and the opponents, but I evolved and developed to meet those challenges, thus prolonging the cycle of catch-up to where the party was wiped in order to end the campaign... it was a bittersweet moment that I realized that as the party lay dying around me... an L7/M1 character duelling a custom "CR19/M?" that my victory was very empty, and my only solace was that I survived a petty assassination attempt aimed at punishing me. Meta, it worked. I saw the setting shift and everyone's resuscitation afterwards as a cleaning effort for a new campaign meant to counter me and sure enough, never again did they ever attend a session I ran, nor was I invited.
I share this not to advertise triumph, but sincerely caution against where reprisal-based actions can lead. Cooler heads prevailed in the group and I was invited back, but I realized that the magic had gone, and I went and found a new group that was comfortable with someone who enjoyed optimization. There was nothing but resentment left between some friends, and I did not want to cause the group any more grief.
If you cannot reconcile the munchiness that player brings to the table, and if they do not heed in-game and session discussion, then you may have to make that hard choice for the betterment of the group.
In another setting, that level of overkill may be what that player needs to survive a campaign and be competitive, but on your board, it may not be the case, and is more of a detriment in experience than an asset materially.
I would rule against catch-up boons the other players because that problem player will demand "parity" with the benefits. A DM tried with me, and it only made me more capable as I refined my advancement because I had a blinding need to be relevant in the party where in truth I was overshadowing and disillusioning my friends. Enabling extra gains does not necessarily mean the rest of the players can use them effectively.
Do not specifically Pokemon-Type match the player. A child can see through that ploy and you have officially gone full-Meta. At this point, you may as well pose his stat block and poll a challenge for what can kill it in the most entertaining/humiliation fashion for lowest CR/item value.
An alternative further detailed would be to make that character the unwitting party champion (doesn't mean leader, spokesperson, yatta yatta). Justify the effects that PC has in game to where opposing factions WOULD regard them as the most capable and thus most targeted. Have an opponent that is challenging in a balanced matter, not simply immune to anything they are specialized against, and most certainly not a dedicated THAT-PC killer. Let them beat against that greater threat while the rest of the party handles their tasks where they shine and are given keystone moments of their own. After all, experience and loot is fairly shared?
Appeal to their better nature; the burden and fault is on them should they choose to go on.
Are you all deeply committed to the campaign? A mulligan may be upsetting -just blatantly tell that person what is wrong away from the rest of the players so it does not feel like being ripped apart or punished in a group setting.
You are not being unfair, a lot of us here are sympathetic with your plight. DMing runs into those personal dilemmas where leadership concerns can back you into a corner. Congratulate Das Munchkin as ironically as you want in winning Pathfinder, and plead with them honestly and sincerely as to what you feel your limits are and what you are capable of handling.
TL;DR Tell Dragon what the problem is and hash it out.
P.S. If you resolve this amicably and the table is pleased with how the campaign proceeds from this personal conflict, then you have my admiration for finding a better way.
The answer to this problem is always the same: Talk to the player who you think is a problem.
If he's a good player, and a good role-player, he should be a good team-player as well.
If he's really good at power-gaming, and tends to go overboard, maybe this is a good opportunity for him to make a really terrible class/race mix, and see how good he can make it (He'll probably still be better than the others). You could challenge him to use a lower point-buy than the others and see if he can keep up (remember, this one has to be fun, not a punishment for him. Don't force him into it, just suggest it as a challenge).
Talking things out with him is ALWAYS the best option.
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You don't need anything more than the CRB to dominate... that isn't news.
I will echo some of the other thoughts to ask the dragon player to reroll to a paizo only class. 3pp can be good or bad, just like Paizo itself. But this class is too much. It never looks good when one person can hero ball the entire game session (to use a basketball reference) and the other players are not needed.
Another option is to redirect his character building expertise. Rather than pick a top tier class, challenge him to make a very low tier class viable and versatile. There are many classes that have good flavor but poorly aligned mechanics. As always in a group where you are the only power gamer the classy move is to play a support character with all the plot hook helpful abilities possible but still allow another player first attempt.
I would point out me playing a 3.5 bard but then I went sublime cord and that's just nasty.
Tell him out of game that he's becoming more powerful than the other players and needs to tone it down. If he whines, explain to him that the other players should get to have fun too. Keep explaining this to him until he stops whining and gives in.
Conversely, if it's just one guy who's lacking behind, and the rest of the players are in about the same spot, tell him he needs to make his character more powerful to keep up.
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Never allow 3pp!
You are aware this is the third party forum right?
I am honestly surprised by the number of people that think he should reroll a paizo class.
I think the solution is talking to the player, and seeing if you could get him to play something else he would like. Dont limit him to paizo only classes.
The problem is not that the draconic paragon is overpowered, but as the op said, the rest of the party took wacky options and are not as experienced. I can imagine a barbarian being similarly disruptive since the paragon cannot fly at this level, and should have less accuracy and HP than the barb.
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Never allow 3pp!You are aware this is the third party forum right?
I am honestly surprised by the number of people that think he should reroll a paizo class.
I think the solution is talking to the player, and seeing if you could get him to play something else he would like. Dont limit him to paizo only classes.
The problem is not that the draconic paragon is overpowered, but as the op said, the rest of the party took wacky options and are not as experienced. I can imagine a barbarian being similarly disruptive since the paragon cannot fly at this level, and should have less accuracy and HP than the barb.
Core Paizo includes roc riding Hunters and Druids at 1st level; 3pp materials are definitely not the problem.
My first question to the OP would be - do the other players feel this is a problem, or just you? The others may be fine with the dragon picking up the slack in combat, and this could just be a thing where you have to adjust your expectations as a GM.
If it is causing problems amongst the other players, what is the source of their dissatisfaction? From the sounds of things, it seems like any class this player picks will probably outshine the other players, so really, the question here isn't about the dragon class at all, it's "What do I do when I have one player whose system mastery is drastically higher than the rest of the group's" a question at least as old as 3rd edition D&D, if not earlier. That being the case, there's a couple ways to address this.
First, do group character building for your first session each game and encourage everyone to talk. Maybe if one of your lower system mastery players asks you about his build, nudge him towards the higher op player for advice and create a dynamic where he pulls the other players up with him.
If that's not a good option for your group, encourage the higher op player to consider options where his awesomeness revolves around boosting the other party members, like a Bard, Cavalier, possibly a Paladin, maybe DSP's Tactician, Warlord, or another well reviewed 3pp option that focuses on buffing or coordinating a team.
You can also look at tweaking the encounters so that they require more active participation and reliance on multiple character interactions for conflict resolution, such as adding timed traps or area control type challenges (for example, a crushing ceiling that requires people to manipulate controls from two different panels while the rest of the group fends off shadow conjurations that are trying to force the skill monkey(s) away from the panels).
Could you give more information regarding levels of party, what level you calculated the Dragon character to be etc?
In my experience, Dragons make great melee characters if made properly, but full casters will still kick their guts out...
So more info please.
Never allow 3pp!
Could you give more information regarding levels of party, what level you calculated the Dragon character to be etc?
In my experience, Dragons make great melee characters if made properly, but full casters will still kick their guts out...
So more info please.
the dragon is actually a third party class. I believe it is linked somewhere in the thread. It has a few notable weaknesses, such as its breath attacks being per day instead of every 1d4 rounds.
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The class (and I presume race) actually were pretty well received by Endzeitgeist, despite his admitted disinclination to like dragons as player options. I see that he notes that the race is actually better balanced than a lot of the options presented in the ARG.
A little excerpt from the review:
"In fact, in spite of my admitted trepidations against the very notion of playing dragons, I can’t find it in me to bash these guys. While a couple of the abilities (crush, tail sweep, breath-tricks, etc.) are powerful and lend themselves to the full-blown knee-jerk reaction of screaming “This is OP”, actually playing the beasts tells a different story – the larger dragons require room to properly act and that is simply not always there. The decreased slot-array for magic items also hampers them at high level play, offsetting some of the admittedly meat-grinding oomph their array of natural weapons may cause."
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My opinion, you screwed the pooch. You should have laid down the guidelines right from the start. You are now in damage recovery. You might very well lose one or more players over this. Given the composition of what you have in the party, it looks like you threw care to the wind and let your PC walk all over you and do what they want. You make the classic mistake of "bring what you want".
"I don't want to punish the dragon player, since really he isn't really overpowered in comparison to what he could do with any other class anyway. But at the same time, I don't want the other players to feel left out or overshadowed. Peoples thoughts?"
Only one of two times I have ever said this: Scrap your campaign and start over.
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My opinion, you screwed the pooch. You should have laid down the guidelines right from the start. You are now in damage recovery. You might very well lose one or more players over this. Given the composition of what you have in the party, it looks like you threw care to the wind and let your PC walk all over you and do what they want. You make the classic mistake of "bring what you want".
"I don't want to punish the dragon player, since really he isn't really overpowered in comparison to what he could do with any other class anyway. But at the same time, I don't want the other players to feel left out or overshadowed. Peoples thoughts?"
Only one of two times I have ever said this: Scrap your campaign and start over.
Nonsense. This is just crazy alarmism, we don't even know that the other players actually have any problem with this character, just that the GM has noticed that the dragon is outperforming the other characters, something he suspects would be the case regardless of what class or race his player made. There are numerous options in the core game that can be substantially worse than the Draconic Paragon class (he could have played a CRB only Wizard, or even a Summoner).
What the GM has, is an issue of players with substantially different levels of system mastery, and that's the problem he needs to address. The first step to doing that is to find out if his players actually have an issue with the discrepancy, or if the problem only exists in his own mind. Once he has a better idea of how the player's performance is actually impacting the cohesiveness of the group, he can start finding a solid solution forward.
Screaming that the sky is falling and implying that his players can't possibly have the maturity to come to a resolution without the danger of someone leaving a group goes beyond unhelpful and well into the territory of active disparagement. You've implied the OP is a bad GM, that his player is a bully, and that the whole group has the emotional stability of a kindergarten class, none of which is even remotely implied by the OP's post. Maybe extend them the same courtesy you'd extend to any other human being and assume that they're all friends playing a game, and that the OP coming here and asking for help before things turn bad shows that he's a conscientious individual who respects all of his players and is trying to provide the best experience possible.