Hi All,
Looking for some of your thoughts on character decisions for an upcoming Wrath of the Righteous game. I'm playing the primary healer, and would like respectable damage-dealing capabilities when not healing.
I'm dead-set on a Paladin. It's been my favorite class since 2nd ed and this AP seems to be made for Paladin.
Here is the
Race: Tiefling (Demon-spawn)
Stats: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 16
Mythic Path: Hierophant (Dual Path into Champion)
Path Abilities: Recalled Blessing, Sudden Strike, Mythic Smite, Mounted Maniac,... uncertain of what else
Archetype: Hospitaler
Combat Style: Mounted
Feat: Fey Foundling
Other feats of interest: Power Attack, Monstrous Mount, MM Mastery, Ancestral Scorn, Quick Channel, Selective Channel, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Given that the campaign runs to level 20, and we will eventually get our capstone abilities (e.g., Holy Champion), which of these would strike the balance of Damager-Healer better?
Option 1: Oradin
- Follow the tips outlined in grrrarg's Oradin build.
- 3 Oracle / 17 Paladin
- Lose Holy Champion at level 20
- Weaker LoH and Channel and smite
- Slower spell progression
- More channel uses for meditation crystals
- Lifelink (at higher level mythic play, is healing 5HP per round meaningful?)
- Curse: Lame (I'll be armored and on a mount anyway)
Option 2: Paladin
- Pickup Hospitaler for the AoE healing from channel energy
- Lose smites :(
- Loses Aura of Justice from the standard paladin class(This hurts! It looks amazing for this AP.)
- Replace lost smites with uses of mythic power via Mythic Smite
- Greater LoH / CE advancement over Oradin
- Greater Paladin advancement for spells (and Hierophant Recalled Blessing)
- Fewer CE uses to feed into meditation crystals
- No Life Link (I'm asking to be convinced that Life Link is worth it. Does it age well?)
Disclaimer before I get raked over the coals for Recalled Blessing. My GM has ruled that it uses that same casting action as the original spell. So, I plan on prepping a lot of immediate action spells (e.g., Heroic Defiance, Paladin Sacrifice... I'm open to other suggestions). So I can use mythic "points" to soak damage for my allies.
Fire away and feel free to ask any qualifying questions.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Honestly I'd suggest going strait paly. I wanted stronger direct LoH when I played through this ap (only made it to the end of the second book before going back to our gestalt ways). Shield spell does an better job at shielding your allies than lifelink anyway at higher levels.
Honestly, I'd disregard mythic smite, at least for a way to get extra smites. The base mythic abilities will let you do this too, except you get all your smites back for an MP. At higher level, though.
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I'd go hospitaler over Oradin. If I could suggest taking the Chosen One Archetype. You get better action economy with outsourcing your heal bot duties to your familiar who can use your LoH and channel energy. Get a familiar with a hand give it a cure wand and other wands.
The best part is that at level 11 when you smite you can have your familiar smite as well.
Honestly I'd suggest going strait paly. I wanted stronger direct LoH when I played through this ap (only made it to the end of the second book before going back to our gestalt ways). Shield spell does an better job at shielding your allies than lifelink anyway at higher levels.
LoH can be buffed through abilities and items.
@OP At lower levels you never need to worry about party members dying or bleeding out during combat because you can't get to them. That almost makes it a "no brainer" by itself. It isn't like you have a ton of things to spend your swift action on either.
As for "is it worth it?" Probably not, BUT dying before you get to high level mythic tier is a possibly too. Lifelink decreases the chance of people dying before then. And seeing as you spend 5-10 levels befoee getting to "high level", many find it worth it.
This isn't an MMO where leveling takes 5-10 hours of gameplay and you sit around at max level doing things. Ideal builds at 20th level often are completely useless at lower levels due to choices being made at requirement, or pushed around to make space for something else when it "all comes together" finally.
Having a "safety net" at max level isn't really worth it due to what can be done at those levels, because if you die, you can just be resurrected. But it is invaluable for that 10 levels it was actually functional, where you couldn't afford a raise dead (or it would have been a huge resource sink).
Also, mythic vital strike > mythic smite IIRC. You can't always count on being mounted either unless running a small character with medium mount (and so reliably able to go where everyone else is able to).
@TD: Thanks for the tip. I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I'll forgo Champion altogether and go full Hierophant.
@SDLoA: I hadn't given the Chosen One much thought (or even looked at it closely before now). Have you played one before? Seems nifty to be able to get it to heal for you, but also seems like you could burn through LoH and CE charges like mad.
@SL4: Thanks for the insights. I occasionally struggle with gold-plating a high level build with a blindspot for the lower levels. Also, good call on mythic vital strike. I think my GM is actually considering house-rule-banning mythic vital strike for being too OP. I'll have to double check.
You may also consider a variant multiclass of oracle, if that's an option in your group.
Actually, looking at the MT3 ability "Recuperate", I might even bail on Hospitaler in favor of going Unarchetyped paladin. The main reason for Hospitaler was a deeper well of healing, but if the well can be refreshed with 1 hour and 1 use of mythic power; then perhaps I can keep Aura of Justice after all.
I might take a close look at VMC-ing oracle, although I note that the Oradin mini-guide doesn't recommend it. I'm already concerned about having too few feats, so I'll need to weigh the pros and cons of having the combat feats that I want, vs Lifelink and other Oracle goodies. If I end up going that route, the good news with being a Hierophant VMC-Oracle is Mythic Domain I won't have to wait so long to have multiple Life Link targets and CE (when I get it) will be a bit more effective.
[Edit @melkiador: great minds think a like, I was just typing out my VMC-oracle idea as you posted your's]
I'm playing an Oradin currently in a WotR campaign. We are currently in book 3. No issues at all so far, aside from my dumb decision to try and be a bow using Oradin. The party wasn't too happy that I couldn't get Precise Shot until lvl 5, but I'm pretty unstoppable currently now that I have mythic rapid shot and a number of other nice things.
The issues are definitely a lack of divine spellcasting, but I went Hierophant, and thankfully Inspired Spell helps immensely with that, but still, I'll only be reaching lvl 4 Oracle spells which is a bit disappointing. Life Link helps a ton though, and I went Hospitaler and the extra channels come in handy as well, though the loss of Smites definitely hurts, but you just need to be extra careful about what you smite.
Further, I highly recommend taking a few levels of Holy Vindicator if you opt for Hospitaler. Maybe not all 10, but I'm currently taking 7. It hurts your LoH but it will increase your Hospitaler AND your Oracle channels, which is very, very nice, while gaining Oracle casting.
As you mentioned Recuperate helps a lot with regaining your uses, as does Mythic Domain which will not only grant your Oracle channels +2d6, but will also allow you to restore them for 1 mythic point as well, without any rest.
Oradin is cool, when other players aren't effective in combat (nobody is controlling battlefield).
If they are, you can choose to be also effective and take full paladin.
I am just finishing running Wrath. The amount of damage taken is such that I have an Oracle casting 2 Mythic heals per round in most fights in order to keep the rest of the party up.
I don't think any lesser form of healing will be viable by late in book 4.
Having said that the main damage dealer for the party is the Paladin doing between 700-1000pts of damage with a full attack every round so Paladins are great.
I am sure that other healing options work great in none mythic games.
As a general rule, any legal target a paladin smites... Is going to get obliterated. Even in non mythic games. That is kinda the point, it's a "game ender" which is why it is limited per day. Once a paladin smites there might as well be a large number floating over the targets head counting down to destruction, when it turns to red mist.
However a full Oracle will be significantly more useful and destructive because of options from spells and such. Even more so with mythic spells and abilities. So really a few levels of Paladin to get smite, awesome saves and the rest Oracle is probably significantly more powerful an "endgame" build. Do in a standard action what the paladin needs a full attack action to do, as well as heal.
Thanks for all the great input and offering your own experiences and thoughts to this thread. Our group is not optimized at all. We strive for balance between RP and mechanics.
We kicked off the campaign last night, and I'm quite surprised at how the campaign starts off with a real bang!
- Half-elf demonslayer ranger
- Tiefling cult-leader warpriest
- Human fighter
- Tiefling Paladin VMC-Oracle (Me)
Here is what I went with for a build, including future feats and mythic progression. I'm open for another round of feedback if anyone has any specific experiences related to similar builds:
Pit-born Paladin, no archetype (VMC Oracle)
15-point buy
(PB) - Stat - #
(5)Str 16
(2)Dex 12
(5)Con 14
(2)Int 10
(-4)Wis 7
(5)Cha 16
Alternate Racial Traits:
- Prehensile Tail (draw items as swift) - replaces Fiendish Sorcery
-- can hold items with tail (e.g. For Lay on Hands)
- Fiendish Sprinter (+10ft move when charging/running) - replaces skilled
- Variant ability: Fiendish luck 1/day d20 reroll (replaces spell-like ability)
- Scaled Skin - +1 nat armor, but resist 5 only to fire, ice, or electricity
Physical trait:
Abnormally long digits (aka salad fingers)
Traits:
- Touched by Divinity
- Purity of Faith
1 - VMC - Curse: Lame
1 - fey foundling
3 - VMC - Revelation: Life Link
5 - Monstrous Mount
7 - VMC - Orison: Purify Food and Drink (I heard this was useful in the Worldwound)
9 - Monstrous Mount Mastery
11 - VMC - Curse Focus
13 - Evolved Companion (Wing Buffet)
15 - VMC - Revelation: Channel Energy
17 - Selective Channel
19 - VMC - Revelation: Life Sense
20 - Quick Channel
I decided to supplement my lack of feats from VMC by picking up normal feats using mythic feat slots (I didn't really qualify for many mythic feats anyway), and the end of the build inflates my pool of "uses of mythic power" to grow my spelling casting ability.
1 - Feat: Power Attack || Mythic Domain (to get more life link targets at the lower levels)
2 - +2 Cha || Heathen Slayer
3 - Feat: Mythic Power Attack || Abundant Healing
4 - +2 Cha || Divine Potency (1st level)
5 - Feat: Mythic Hvy Armor Prof || Divine Potency (2nd level)
6 - +2 Cha || servant of balance
7 - Feat: Extra Mythic Power (+2 uses of mythic power) || Enduring Blessing
8 - +2 Cha || Extra Mythic Power (+4 uses of mythic power)
9 - Feat: Extra Mythic Path Ability (Extra Mythic Power) || (+6 uses of mythic power)
10 - +2 Cha || Extra Mythic Power (+8 uses of mythic power)
Thanks again.
Happy gaming!
Can't say I like the build honestly, VMC oracle is just a poor choice in my opinion.
As for your mythic choices, you really do not need all those Extra Mythic Powers. Heathen Slayer is less effective than you'd like because you are not just fighting one demon lord and his followers, but several.
If your goal is to be a primary healer, I'm just not seeing it. Also, I'd recommend against Scaled Skin. You're gonna wish you had those other resistances. Lastly which Domain did you choose for Touched by Divinity? I'd recommend one with Divine Favor.
Can't say I like the build honestly, VMC oracle is just a poor choice in my opinion.
Now I'm curious. If you're going to say it's a bad choice, add some value and explain why.
Can't say I like the build honestly, VMC oracle is just a poor choice in my opinion.Now I'm curious. If you're going to say it's a bad choice, add some value and explain why.
VMC is just a poor choice, simple as that. I'm a big fan of the
1 Oracle - Channel Energy
2 Paladin
3 Paladin
4 Oracle
5 Oracle - Life Link
Paladin X
You get Channel Energy off the bat, so you can actually function as a healer, then you rush to Paladin 2 for the Divine Grace and Smite, then you grab Life Link at lvl 5, which is a point where dropping 5 HP constantly likely won't instagib you.
I can't comment on his plans to use a Monstrous Mount as I have no experience with mounted builds, but he's lacking things like Greater Mercy which is absolutely useful as any additional healing die is key to actually surviving when you're dropping upwards of 15 hp a round purely off Link, not taking actual damage into account, and there's a lot of damage in WotR (especially if your DM is running the modified stronger stat blocks).
'VMC is just a poor choice'
No. It's a pretty good choice.
Note how this statement is just as well backed up as yours.
'VMC is just a poor choice'
No. It's a pretty good choice.
Note how this statement is just as well backed up as yours.
Because burning half your feats for... Life Link and... Life Link and... ok yea, all you get is Life Link. That's totally a good deal. /sarcasm
You know what else gives you like Life Link? 1 level of Oracle. Taking Mythic Domain will even give you the extra links you want, without burning half of your feats to do so. Plus you even get a bunch of orisons AND first level casting, compared to the single orison from the VMC you'd get at lvl 7.
I repeat, VMC is a poor choice.
@Havoq, @Heretek, @TD
Thanks again for your thoughts.
It's true, the build I'd proposed wasn't hard-spec'd as a healer. My thinking was that Paladin + VMC Oracle + Heirophant would have the healer base covered, and that my feats could go toward the combat style and flavor that I want to have. As for the domain chosen, I went for Healing (the DM let me take Healing even though I worship Iomedae).
As for Oradin vs Paladin-VMC-Oracle, here are some of my own thoughts in contrasting the two:
When just looking at trading feats for Life Link and Orisons, it does look rather unfavorable. However, when considering the lost paladin levels (i.e., -1 smite per day, -3 smite damage, -2 lay on hands per day, -2d6 on LoH, -3 spell advancement, lost Holy Champion (which maximizes LoH healing); I think it starts looking a lot better.
+2 LoH uses (equiv. to the Extra LoH feat)
+2d6 LoH (equiv. to taking the Greater Mercy feat...twice!)
+1 mercy (equiv. to taking the Extra Mercy feat)
+1 smite per day and +3 smite damage (totally worth a feat)
There's 5 feats of goodies, plus the 3 Revelations over 20 levels, albeit at unfortunately timing.
... the spell advancement is just a splash of gravy on top.
I totally get that the lower levels will be rough. I'm hoping me and the warpriest can help eachother out.
If I were to bail on VMC-Oracle Life Link build, I think I would just go Hospitaler instead and focus on CE healing instead. Thoughts?
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Your gonna be bored.
When I played the AP as is...
Everything died before they could do anything.
Had a party of:
God conjuration Wizard- archmage
Evangelist cleric
Archer paladin- champion
Two handed Fighter- champion...mythic Vital strike with scythe.
Everything got torn apart. Mythic is so OP that healing should not be a thought. Just smite your way to victory.
My build at the moment is 4 Hospitaler Paladin, 3 Oracle, 4 Holy Vindicator, with the goal of hitting 7 (maybe 8) Holy Vindicator, then dropping back to finish off Paladin.
19 BAB
4th level Oracle casting
3rd level Paladin casting
7d6 Oracle channel (+2d6 with Phylactery)
7d6 Hospitaler channel (+2d6 with Phylactery)
5d6 LoH (+2d6 with Bracers)
2 Smites (For most of the campaign you'll have 1 Smite, the main worry with this build, however a Dual Path into Champion can net you Mythic Smite as an alternative, and a number of other very nasty abilities)
It's much more balanced, and Hierophant helps a lot to flesh out the inconsistencies. You are pretty much never short of healing like this, and depending on your DM you can even burn your Hospitaler channel to quicken an Oracle channel, which will be stronger for a good while, thanks to Mythic Domain.
Ultimately, Pathfinder, and especially WotR, devolves into a game of rocket tag so would I perhaps be better off going pure Paladin? It's possible, but the healing I can do has saved us greatly several times now, including myself. Which reminds me, always, always prepare Hero's Defiance.
Your gonna be bored.
When I played the AP as is...
Everything died before they could do anything.
Had a party of:
God conjuration Wizard- archmage
Evangelist cleric
Archer paladin- champion
Two handed Fighter- champion...mythic Vital strike with scythe.Everything got torn apart. Mythic is so OP that healing should not be a thought. Just smite your way to victory.
I can certainly see how given those builds. Did your DM not use the stronger statblocks?
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We used a 15 point buy.
All the bonus's from mythic was enough.
I played the wizard and had the ability to cast Wish 1/day as a SLA. So everyone's stats boosted +1....the main stat was spent money on for a +2-+4 depending on how much the player spent on themselves.
We all had around a 40 in our main stats by the end.
I will be honest and say everyone took improved initative mythic....we where a team who chose to go first...and killed everything before they could do us harm.