I have been looking around. and I haven't found any feats that allow me to use and unarmed attack and cast a spell at the same time. Or hold magic in my hand and punch someone with it. With out being a magus. Is their any other way? Anything close?
As far as I am aware the only way to do such is with the Esoteric Magus and in a way with the Elemental Ascetic Keneticest.
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You can automatically do this.
It's called Hold the Charge. Everyone can do it with any Touch spell. You cast the spell and now it's in your hand. You can make a Touch-Attack (which ignores the enemy's Armor and Shield AC) so they're almost always easier to hit, but this does no damage - all it does is release the spell into the target. Or you can punch the enemy. If you do, you need to hit its regular AC (almost always harder than the Touch AC) but if you do, you can do your fist damage (for a human that's 1d3 non-lethal damage + STR mod) AND you can release your spell into the target.
Of course you need to cast the spell on one round (as a Standard action, usually) and then punch the target on the next round (also usually a Standard action) so doing this takes two rounds. Normally.
You can only do this with Touch spells. If you want to do it with all kinds of spells, I think you need to be a magus (which you seem to not want to be).
You can automatically do this.
It's called Hold the Charge. Everyone can do it with any Touch spell. You cast the spell and now it's in your hand. You can make a Touch-Attack (which ignores the enemy's Armor and Shield AC) so they're almost always easier to hit, but this does no damage - all it does is release the spell into the target. Or you can punch the enemy. If you do, you need to hit its regular AC (almost always harder than the Touch AC) but if you do, you can do your fist damage (for a human that's 1d3 non-lethal damage + STR mod) AND you can release your spell into the target.
Of course you need to cast the spell on one round (as a Standard action, usually) and then punch the target on the next round (also usually a Standard action) so doing this takes two rounds. Normally.
You can only do this with Touch spells. If you want to do it with all kinds of spells, I think you need to be a magus (which you seem to not want to be).
so i can use quicken spell in my hand to make the spell. and punch in the same round? is that possible?
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Sure, but if you really want quicken spells in the mix, you should be able to cast a quickened low-level Touch spell as a swift action, deliver it as a free action, then cast another higher-level Touch spell as a standard action and deliver that as a free action. This way you deliver TWO touch spells in a single round.
Your way, you only deliver one quickened low-level spell each round, never cast the high-level spell, don't get two per round, and you miss more often.
Your only benefit, normally is 1d3 non-lethal damage from the punch.
You have to give up all that (two spells, higher level spells, and decent chance to hit) for a pathetic little bit of non-lethal damage (and if you dumped STR, it's even worse).
Why are you so set on taking a big penalty to hit in order to do 1d3 non-lethal damage?
I get it, there are ways to make it more useful. Higher STR, AoMF, and best is possibly being a monk and using a Touch spell that allows multiple touches and then flurrying. I sure hope you're doing something like that to make it worth it.
For the record, there are also two ways to acquire Spellstrike without taking levels in Magus.
(1) Spend five feats on VMC Magus and you get Spellstrike at 11th level.
(2) The Blade Adept Arcanist can select it as an exploit starting at 5th level.
Punching people with a held charge can sort of be worth it with a multiple charge spell, particularly if you have set yourself up so that your punches are more effective than the average. So a Rimed up Frostbite plus Enforcer, something like that. Or if you have a bunch of natural attacks (either your own or Alter Self/Monstrous Physique).
Not quite a spell, but there are a few feats that let you deliver magical effects with a punch: Hex Strike, Sorcerous Strike, Domain Strike. None of them are really what you would call an optimizer's dream but there are some interesting options--Hex Strike with Slumber is the obvious one, but Domain Strike with Vision of Madness could also be fun (no saves!).
ETA: Also a spell storing amulet of mighty fists will let you free action discharge a stored spell (up to level 3) once per combat.
Sure, but if you really want quicken spells in the mix, you should be able to cast a quickened low-level Touch spell as a swift action, deliver it as a free action, then cast another higher-level Touch spell as a standard action and deliver that as a free action. This way you deliver TWO touch spells in a single round.
Your way, you only deliver one quickened low-level spell each round, never cast the high-level spell, don't get two per round, and you miss more often.
Your only benefit, normally is 1d3 non-lethal damage from the punch.
You have to give up all that (two spells, higher level spells, and decent chance to hit) for a pathetic little bit of non-lethal damage (and if you dumped STR, it's even worse).
Why are you so set on taking a big penalty to hit in order to do 1d3 non-lethal damage?
I get it, there are ways to make it more useful. Higher STR, AoMF, and best is possibly being a monk and using a Touch spell that allows multiple touches and then flurrying. I sure hope you're doing something like that to make it worth it.
Yes 2 levels at least of monk for the free feats ,boost to saves, and just an amazing dip in my head.
For the record, there are also two ways to acquire Spellstrike without taking levels in Magus.
(1) Spend five feats on VMC Magus and you get Spellstrike at 11th level.
(2) The Blade Adept Arcanist can select it as an exploit starting at 5th level.
Yes the VMC magus is probably going to be abused to the fullest extent by everyone.
I'm more of a in your face type of player. So Arcanist wouldn't be my style.
Punching people with a held charge can sort of be worth it with a multiple charge spell, particularly if you have set yourself up so that your punches are more effective than the average. So a Rimed up Frostbite plus Enforcer, something like that. Or if you have a bunch of natural attacks (either your own or Alter Self/Monstrous Physique).
Not quite a spell, but there are a few feats that let you deliver magical effects with a punch: Hex Strike, Sorcerous Strike, Domain Strike. None of them are really what you would call an optimizer's dream but there are some interesting options--Hex Strike with Slumber is the obvious one, but Domain Strike with Vision of Madness could also be fun (no saves!).
ETA: Also a spell storing amulet of mighty fists will let you free action discharge a stored spell (up to level 3) once per combat.
This was exactly my intent. Could you point me in that direction.
Yes 2 levels at least of monk for the free feats ,boost to saves, and just an amazing dip in my head.Sure, but if you really want quicken spells in the mix, you should be able to cast a quickened low-level Touch spell as a swift action, deliver it as a free action, then cast another higher-level Touch spell as a standard action and deliver that as a free action. This way you deliver TWO touch spells in a single round.
Your way, you only deliver one quickened low-level spell each round, never cast the high-level spell, don't get two per round, and you miss more often.
Your only benefit, normally is 1d3 non-lethal damage from the punch.
You have to give up all that (two spells, higher level spells, and decent chance to hit) for a pathetic little bit of non-lethal damage (and if you dumped STR, it's even worse).
Why are you so set on taking a big penalty to hit in order to do 1d3 non-lethal damage?
I get it, there are ways to make it more useful. Higher STR, AoMF, and best is possibly being a monk and using a Touch spell that allows multiple touches and then flurrying. I sure hope you're doing something like that to make it worth it.
Two levels of monk are a horrible choice for a full caster. That delays your spell progression way too much. Since the monk is a ¾ BAB class and the arcanist is a ½ BAB class you will often be behind in your chance to hit. You will also getting your next level of spell much later. The extra damage from the monk’s unarmed strike are is not worth two caster levels. The saving throw bonus is a little more valuable, but can easily be gotten with gold and spells.
Anything delivered as a touch attack can instead be a normal attack I think...
so roll to hit normally (not touch), do 1D3+STR bonus... plus spell...
Possibly provoke... (if you don't have Improved Unarmed)
I might be wrong, but this seems right.
Anything delivered as a touch attack can instead be a normal attack I think...
so roll to hit normally (not touch), do 1D3+STR bonus... plus spell...
Possibly provoke... (if you don't have Improved Unarmed)
I might be wrong, but this seems right.
Touch spells can be delivered through natural weapons (be it claw or fist) in a normal attack, yes, but the free touch attack granted by touch spells can only be a touch attack unless you have some special ability changing that.
This is because the rules for making a regular attack to deliver a spell are in "holding a charge", and the free attack granted to deliver it on the turn you cast is limited to a touch attack.
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge.
Anything delivered as a touch attack can instead be a normal attack I think...
so roll to hit normally (not touch), do 1D3+STR bonus... plus spell...
Possibly provoke... (if you don't have Improved Unarmed)
I might be wrong, but this seems right.
Touch spells can be delivered through natural weapons (be it claw or fist) in a normal attack, yes, but the free touch attack granted by touch spells can only be a touch attack unless you have some special ability changing that.
This is because the rules for making a regular attack to deliver a spell are in "holding a charge", and the free attack granted to deliver it on the turn you cast is limited to a touch attack.
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge.
No Fight Club spell delivery then, dammit.
A magus revolving around improved unarmed strike and combat maneuvers is an interesting thought experiment build. (Either as an esoteric magus, or simply base magus with a feat taken for improved unarmed strike if you still like using other weapons as well).
Half BAB spellcasters will likely miss too often with a punch to be worth it.
Let us know how the play result goes, if possible.
Tyler Durden: Magus.
:D
. I sure hope you're doing something like that to make it worth it. Yes 2 levels at least of monk for the free feats ,boost to saves, and just an amazing dip in my head. Two levels of monk are a horrible choice for a full caster. That delays your spell progression way too much. Since the monk is a ¾ BAB class and the arcanist is a ½ BAB class you will often be behind in your chance to hit. You will also getting your next level of spell much later. The extra damage from the monk’s unarmed strike are is not worth two caster levels. The saving throw bonus is a little more valuable, but can easily be gotten with gold and spells.
Unchained monk, full BaB.
There is a feat, I can't remember the name, though some of the more Pathfinder-learned here might, that allows you to hold a charge on multiple limbs. since you can hold the charge on a spell indefinitely, you could feasibly cast a pair of touch spells pre-combat, hold the charge, then move in and deliver them both. I believe it would still be TWF, but natural weapons/unarmed strikes are light weapons, so it could be fairly doable
[Edit; My bad, that was in 3.5 Spell Flower in the Spell Compendium. Might be useful if your DM allows it]
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The best way I can see this being worthwhile is if a monk were to UMD a wand of Chill Touch (since that spell grants multiple charges per cast) and then hold the charge until next round, when he flurries and delivers an extra 1d6 negative energy damage onto all his attacks.
Trouble is, monks rarely have the Charisma or skill points to make UMD worth it, and Chill Touch grants one charge per CL, so you'd need to spend major gold on a high-level wand of it.
A gnome with the fell magic alternate racial trait and 11 or more Wisdom gets a free Chill Touch per day, and counts all his monk levels towards his CL, but... then you're a gnome monk. Hey, at least you can make Bewildering Koan work, right?