Psychic Samsaran Seeks Sympathetic Suggestions

[LilyHaze]

Hello all!

I'm in the midst of building a Psychic Samsaran for PFS. Utilizing the ability to steal inherit psychic spells from the other occult casters, I'm wondering what might be best to take. Unlike Wizards or Clerics, I'm not nearly as familiar with Psychics and what they could really use. I'm starting at Int 20, so I have 6 choices.

My only major ideas are grabbing Cure Light for wand usage, Cure Serious for backup healing, and Breath of Life for emergencies (all off the Spiritualists list).

The focus of the character is likely mental domination through Psychic's many enchantment spells and back-up blasting / support as the party needs.

Anyone playing with the other Psychic casters have any suggestions?

[Helcack]

I would suggest looking at the medium spell list, they get some rather good spells a bit earlier than others.

[Ragoz]

Are you trying to reduce the spell levels? If so here's a list I made to get you started. It's not everything.

Feeblemind -1
Battlemind Link -2
Break Enchantment -1
Legend Lore -2
Mage's Private Sanctum -1
Lesser Planar Binding -1
Planeshift -1
summon monster 5 -1
true seeing -1
teleport -1
dismissal -1
irresistable dance -2
overwhelming presence (with errata) -3 (this is a 9th level spell you will get at 11)

[LilyHaze]

Does reducing spell level work like that?

[Ragoz]

Yes. I was surprised Samsaran got bumped down to a T3 boon for this reason. Mystic Past Life is pretty strong though it's a tad more manageable without Summoner in PFS. When Samsaran was first released Summoner was legal and Wizards could get Dominate Monster at 11.

[LilyHaze]

Do you have a source saying this is allowed? As you know, PFS can lead to some table variation, and if this is legal I'd like to be prepared to fight that.

[Ragoz]

It's just how Mystic Past Life works. Have a look at threads related to the ability if you would like. You also don't have to use it in such a way if you choose not to.

I can't point to anything saying "yes this is how it works" because they don't normally need to clarify something working as written. If it helps they didn't change anything in the Advanced Race Guide errata.

[plaidwandering]

possession off medium list is -2

[Imbicatus]

Mindblade Magus is a psychic caster with the magus spell list. Does this make it legal for poaching with Mythic Past Life?

[LilyHaze]

I'd certainly never considered the Mindblade as a source. If its a psychic caster, its fair game, I suppose. I'll definitely need to look there.

Thanks for the suggestions so far everyone!

[Imbicatus]

Actually for that matter, Psychic bloodline sorcerer is in the same boat. Psychic caster with the Sorcerer list. I doubt it's intentional for this work that way, but they are psychic casters.

[Entryhazard]

Imbicatus wrote:

Mindblade Magus is a psychic caster with the magus spell list. Does this make it legal for poaching with Mythic Past Life?

At this point does Psychic sorcerer count too?

[LilyHaze]

Went ahead and clicked FAQ on Entryhazard's post. I'm not sure it will be responded to, but its a clear question. Samsaran just says I can pull from lists of the same type, and Psychic Sorcerers are of the same type (Psychic) so...

[Mark Seifter]

LilyHaze wrote:

Went ahead and clicked FAQ on Entryhazard's post. I'm not sure it will be responded to, but its a clear question. Samsaran just says I can pull from lists of the same type, and Psychic Sorcerers are of the same type (Psychic) so...

I'd recommend a new thread with a title indicating what the question will be to get more clicks. It certainly has some pretty vague wording in it, so it could use a FAQ. Incidentally, it doesn't say quite what I bolded above (in fact, what it says instead is some of the most difficult wording).

Quote:

Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.

So for the FAQ thread, based on things people mentioned in this thread (and also table variation I have seen before), unclear from the wording would be:

1) "The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to."

Since this mentions the spells having a type, rather than the spell list, how does one determine what type the spell is? What if it's on multiple lists? What about archetypes, domains, patrons, and the like that might grant spells differently than normal to a particular character?

2) "You can add spells...to the spell list of your current spellcasting class."

Can you add spells to a class list that are already on that list?

[LilyHaze]

Alright Mike, where should I make the post at to get the most attention / chance of response. I'm always about getting clear answers, PFS or no!

And you're right, it actually says spells of the same type, which is actually complicated (though no more now than it was when first created: see Bard's spell list being some normally Arcane, and some normally Divine).

[Mark Seifter]

LilyHaze wrote:

Alright Mike, where should I make the post at to get the most attention / chance of response. I'm always about getting clear answers, PFS or no!

And you're right, it actually says spells of the same type, which is actually complicated (though no more now than it was when first created: see Bard's spell list being some normally Arcane, and some normally Divine).

To get the most FAQ clicks, in the rules forum, with a clear title and then stating the question concisely in the first post (feel free to reuse mine if you like).

[LilyHaze]

Since its a rules question, I went ahead and created a new post over here for a better response to the questions you proposed Mike.

[LilyHaze]

That said, with the recent toning down of power on things, I have an inkling on how the FAQ will go. I suspect spell lists will determine type, archetypes might not actually change type for the purposes of Samsarans, and adding spells before you should get them will be a hard no.

Taking bets on other responses. ; P

[Avoron]

If they were going to prohibit you from gaining spells at levels earlier than you could otherwise get them, I think they'd have done that in the recent ARG errata.
I'm actually very surprised they didn't; it creates all sorts of loopholes for samsaran casters to dominate even more than they already would - especially samsaran witches grabbing spells off of the summoner list.

I do expect a ruling that you cannot "add" a spell to a class that already has it, just to get it at an earlier level. That's probably RAW anyway, simply based on the meaning of add.

If there's a more severe ruling, my bet would be on one of these:
1. "You cannot take spells from spellcasting lists with access to less spell levels than your own. Thus, a spell list containing spells up to sixth level cannot gain spells from a spell list containing only spells up fourth level, and a spell list containing spells up to ninth level cannot gain spells from either."
or
2. "To determine the level of the spell added to your list, follow the same guidelines used for determining the level of spell-like abilities, with the exception that you only consider classes with the same type of spellcasting as your own when determining the appropriate spell list from which to determine the level."

Both of those are complicated, but they're the only ways I see of preventing shenanigans without scrapping the ability, which would probably require an errata.

[ZZTRaider]

Avoron wrote:

I do expect a ruling that you cannot "add" a spell to a class that already has it, just to get it at an earlier level. That's probably RAW anyway, simply based on the meaning of add.

They may well make that ruling to try to prevent abuse, but I think that interpretation causes some issues elsewhere. How does that interact with the Magic Domain, which grants Antimagic Field as a 6th level spell, as opposed to 8th level as it normally is for Clerics?

[LilyHaze]

Holy cow I called you Mike over here too. My bad Mark! Hungry brain does strange things.

[Avoron]

ZZTRaider wrote:

Avoron wrote:

I do expect a ruling that you cannot "add" a spell to a class that already has it, just to get it at an earlier level. That's probably RAW anyway, simply based on the meaning of add.

They may well make that ruling to try to prevent abuse, but I think that interpretation causes some issues elsewhere. How does that interact with the Magic Domain, which grants Antimagic Field as a 6th level spell, as opposed to 8th level as it normally is for Clerics?

Cleric domains don't add spells to your spell list, they just give you the ability to prepare and cast certain spells in your domain spell slots.

A Magic Domain cleric cannot prepare a level 6 antimagic field in their normal slots, nor can they prepare a level 8 antimagic field in their domain slots. There is no overlap.

[Taenia]

Actually I think they can prepare a lower domain spell in a higher level domain slot but not normal slots.

[Avoron]

You can prepare it in a higher slot, but I believe barring Heighten Spell, it is still a 6th level spell - easier concentration checks, easier to block with special abilities based on spell level, etc.

[Imbicatus]

And if they are a Theologian, they can spontaneously convert any prepared spell into a domain spell.

[Azodian]

I would personally recommend picking up the following from the Mesmerist spell list:

2nd Level: Glitterdust
4th level: Shadow Conjuration
5th level: Shadow Evocation

[Thrawn007]

This is a lot of resurrection, but because this question still comes up, and this original post was about PFS, I wanted to connect the PFS additional resource language to this thread.

"Samsaran: all alternate racial traits, favored class options, racial archetypes, racial equipment, feats, magic items, and spells are legal for play. Any spell selected with the mystic past life alternate racial trait must follow the same guideline used for determining the spell level for a scroll found on page 25 of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide."

That language addresses early entry spells.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Imbicatus wrote:

Mindblade Magus is a psychic caster with the magus spell list. Does this make it legal for poaching with Mythic Past Life?

The spells are still of the arcane type, even if the magus is casting them psychically. So that's a no go.