Incorporeal Spiritualist Phantom and Ghost Touch

[Anthropohedron]

The text concerning a spiritualist's phantom fully manifested in incorporeal form states it "can't attack corporeal creatures, except to deliver touch-attack spells using the deliver touch spell ability." The text also states that "Fully manifested phantoms can wear armor and use items (though not wield weapons) appropriate to their forms." (Note that "wear armor and" is contradicted by later text and has been acknowledged as a mistake.)

My preferred interpretation is that the spiritualist should be able to give the phantom an Amulet of Mighty Fists enchanted with the Ghost Touch special ability to allow it to make its slam attacks against corporeal creatures. I'm not confident of that interpretation, though, because I'm not certain whether Ghost Touch overrides "can't attack corporeal creatures" or vice versa. Thoughts?

[Bloodrealm]

Anthropohedron wrote:

I'm not confident of that interpretation, though, because I'm not certain whether Ghost Touch overrides "can't attack corporeal creatures" or vice versa. Thoughts?

Well, considering the fact that Ghost Touch is specifically written to override that text and its opposite direction counterpart, I'd say it's possible.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether or not any magic items you have on a Phantom or any other incorporeal creature also become incorporeal while it's wearing them (or if an incorporeal creature can wear magic items at all, not including Ghost Touch weapons and armour).

[Apraham Lincoln]

Other question for consideration, if i take the

phantom fighter feat:

Prerequisite(s): Phantom class feature, phantom with the magic attacks ability.

Benefit(s): Your phantom's natural weapons are treated as having the ghost touch property. In addition, when you cast a touch spell to be delivered by your phantom, you can modify the spell as if you possessed the Ectoplasmic Spell metamagic feat.

Can the phantom attack corporeal creatures whilst incorporeal?
What if the phantom also had the eldritch claws feat?

If it could attack a corporeal creature whilst incorporeal would it still attack touch(+force affects) AC or full AC?

[Apraham Lincoln]

Shameless bump for my question, couldnt find a better titled thread

[Kando]

A phantom can never attack a corperal creature, there text says so. except for the touch attack of course.

If you use the feat you deal full damage to incorperal beings while fully manifestet. And your touch spells also can deal full damage with this feat.
With incorperal manifestation you can already attack incorperal creatures but the 50% malus for incorperal would still apply, with this feat it does not.

There is no word if you equip a ring for example to your phantom that it stays with his incorperal manifestation or while you putting him back into your mind, so when you try it, the item falls to the ground.
Only a fully manifestat phantom can equip/use some items and yes if you want to do that you have to reequip him every time. After you put it into your mind, at least.

To be fair you can argue that when you fully manifest him first then equip the item and then later shift him into incorperal that the items can stay on him. This would work the same with player characters. But be prepared, this interpretation can also change form gm to gm.
But of course this will not help with the putting him back into your mind part, then they still fall to the ground.

Or you can speak with your gm and ask him if you can put a ghost touch enchant on every item you want him to wear. Then there is no arguement at least about the equipment part. But of course this is also open for interpretation.

A phantom can wear all items except for weapons and armor.

In short, dont play a spiritualist. The class has to many flaws and is not fully thought through.
I know the class is very flavorful but sooner or later you will regret it.

[Bloodrealm]

What exactly do you think says that a Phantom can't ever attack corporeal creatures regardless of manifestation type?

[Kando]

I just forgot to specificaly call it out, the first sentence should say.

A incorperal manifestat phantom can never attack a corperal creature, there text says so. except for the touch attack of course.

My bad, it was and again is late.

ps: A amulet of mighty fists enchanted with Ghost Touch does not work ether.
Its the same with the feat that basicaly grands you the benefits of a ghost touch enchant and the ectoplasmic metamagic feat (for your touch attacks) at the same time.

To override this rule, it would need to specificialy call out that you can attack corperal creatures as incorperal phantom now.
But of course, you can speak to your gm and houserule what you want. Its a stupid and unnecessary exception to all other incorperal creatures in the first place.

[Glomgnar]

I must be missing something regarding the feat or the amulet w/ ghost touch.

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

To me the last line says it counts as both.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/ghost-touch

[Kando]

I dont get your question.

So i just can make a guess.

A incorperal manifestat phantom can never attack a corperal creature, there text (the text of the phantom) says so. Except for the touch attack of course.

And the interpretation part is because of you trying to make a ring or amulet or whatever else other then a weapon with the ghost touch enchant, not every gm will roll with that.

[Mekura]

I generally avoid revicing dead threads, but I was curious as to whether this question had received any definite resolution, as I had assumed phabrim fighter enabled a phantom to attack while incorporeal, but can see why my assumption may have been wrong.

[rpvdjoker]

Thats how I interpret it as well. Ghost touch allows for attacking of both incorporeal and ecto so why wouldn't that feat allow it?

[DrakeRoberts]

Add me to the list of 'would like to know'. Is the line about the incorporeal form phantom being unable to attack physical beings simply due to it being incorporeal (in which case Phantom Fighter should allow an incorporeal phantom to attack a corporeal creature), or is it a separate restriction that is not bypassed by ghost touch?

[Howard197]

Would love to get some official ruling on this. Right now the more specific feat allowing a Phantom to have Ghost Touch seems to overrule the general class description about the phantom not attacking while incorporeal, but an official ruling should set this straight.

[Ascalaphus]

So the bit of text we're worried about is this:

Occult Adventures > Phantoms > Incorporeal wrote:

Incorporeal: When the spiritualist chooses to manifest the phantom in incorporeal form, the phantom appears within 30 feet of the spiritualist as a ghostly apparition. It gains the incorporeal subtype, including a deflection bonus to AC equal to its Charisma modifier. Since it isn't an undead creature, it takes no damage from holy water or positive energy. Unlike other incorporeal creatures, an incorporeal phantom can't attack corporeal creatures, except to deliver touch-attack spells using the deliver touch spell ability. An incorporeal manifested phantom can make slam attacks against other incorporeal creatures as if it were in ectoplasmic form.

It doesn't say "can never" - it could gain the ability in the future maybe, but normally it can't.

To decide if giving the phantom a Ghost Touch ability would overcome that, we need to figure out why a phantom can't attack corporeal beings. I think the answer is obvious - it only has slam attacks. Compare that to ghosts, who have Corrupting Touch, or wraiths/spectres/shadows that have negative energy attacks.

"Mundane" slams don't carry across. Not even when the phantom's slams start counting as magic attacks, apparently.

So would Ghost Touch help? Well making the slams magic weapons wasn't good enough, so maybe not. And can you take a single feat to keep all the good stuff of being incorporeal, but gain the ability to attack normally? That would be an extremely good feat. And the feat's flavor text implies that's not what it's meant to do:

Phantom Fighter wrote:

Your phantom is a deadly foe of incorporeal adversaries.

[John Murdock]

then what is good to give the phantom to their natural attack the ghost touch quality with the feat, they can already attack incorporeal since they are also incorporeal

[Ascalaphus]

My phantom spends most of his time ectoplasmic, so he can actually fight. With the feat he can also fight incorporeal enemies.

But it's not a high-priority feat, no.

[John Murdock]

the thing is that the phantom do not need the feat to fight incorporeal since it can already fight them,the class ability say it can. so if having ghost touch give them no advantage then why does the feat give it to the phantom natural attack?

[Ascalaphus]

The phantom can fight incorporeal creatures very effectively while it is incorporeal itself. (Its touch AC is quite high, and you can buff it with Shield and Mage Armor.)

The feat is to allow the phantom to fight incorporeal foes effectively while the phantom is ectoplasmic. I do have my phantom in ectoplasmic form most of the time because that enables it to fight corporeal enemies.

So the feat is good when you fight both incorporeal and corporeal enemies at the same time. Quite circumstantial. Especially since by level 5 a phantom's slams already count as magical, so they already do half damage against incorporeal enemies; the feat allows full damage.