And again, the rules don't cover every single corner case, but in most of them the answer reveals itself in context. Being flatfooted means that you are basically unaware of a situation springing on you. Conversation is not something you do in this context.
Flat-footed does not mean unaware. Otherwise, there would be a surprise round.
From the PRD:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html
In this case there's a rule that says you can talk, even when it's not your turn. There's no rule that specifically says you can't talk while flat-footed, so the general rule stands that you can.
Initiative
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. ...
You can't take a free action (speaking) before you have had a chance to act.
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Simply put, I think you are not 'aware' until you have a turn.This is simply wrong. Again, think of a gunfight at the OK Corral. Both parties are well aware of each other; it just so happens that one person is a faster draw (rolled better on initiative).
I agree you're aware, but if your reactions aren't fast enough to dodge or fight, they're probably not fast enough to say anything coherent.
Imagine the two groups of cowboys suddenly turn and notice one another.
The chief desperado, still flat footed, says, "Let's shoot Wyatt Earp first - he's the most dangerous."
Then Wyatt Earp's initiative - a natural 20 - comes up, and he shoots him.
At this point the desperado hasn't had time to go for his gun, and he hasn't had a chance to move in a way that makes him harder to hit, but he has had time to assess the situation, come up with a plan, and explain it to his allies. That sounds odd to me.
Simply put, I think you are not 'aware' until you have a turn.This is simply wrong. Again, think of a gunfight at the OK Corral. Both parties are well aware of each other; it just so happens that one person is a faster draw (rolled better on initiative).I agree you're aware, but if your reactions aren't fast enough to dodge or fight, they're probably not fast enough to say anything coherent.
Imagine the two groups of cowboys suddenly turn and notice one another.
The chief desperado, still flat footed, says, "Let's shoot Wyatt Earp first - he's the most dangerous."
Then Wyatt Earp's initiative - a natural 20 - comes up, and he shoots him.
At this point the desperado hasn't had time to go for his gun, and he hasn't had a chance to move in a way that makes him harder to hit, but he has had time to assess the situation, come up with a plan, and explain it to his allies. That sounds odd to me.
I think I would also rule that you can't speak before your first turn in the initiative order (as that's what I think "before you have had a chance to act" means). But a small point around this (very reasonable) pen picture - that's all well and good with single shot gunfights. But try painting the same picture with a usual PF 1st round martial move/charge 30+ ft. & swing. Not so convincing then, IMHO.
Initiative
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. ...Speaking is a free action that you can do even when it is not your turn. Acting means "taking an action". You can't "take an action" before you "have a chance to act".
Therefore, no speaking or other actions, until it is your turn.
But we know that this is not absolute. You can dodge out of the way (make a Reflex save), and with a feat even make AOOs. You can make perception checks. There are all sorts of things that you can do while flat footed.
In fact, if we carry your proposal to its ultimate conclusion Diplomacy is impossible. Since you cannot speak before combat has started then you cannot use Diplomacy or make pre-combat plans.
...But we know that this is not absolute. ...
Therefore, no speaking or other actions, until it is your turn.
Not many of the rules are absolute, but that doesn't mean they are not the rules.
In the game there are active checks and passive checks. Passive checks, such as sense motive and some perception checks, happen automatically, usually as a reaction to something. Active checks require the PC to do something, usually requiring an action of some kind.
Again, speaking is a free action. You can't take actions until it is your turn. Therefor no speaking until it is your turn. Those are the rules. There may be exceptions, but the rules are the rules.
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
There you go.
You can speak, even "when it isn't your turn".
This seems to be a point of contention for a lot of people. Flat-footed condition states you are "unable to react normally to the situation." Some people argue that since you cannot take immediate actions while flat-footed, you also cannot speak. I argue that since speaking doesn't say you can't do it while flat-footed AND that since it is POSSIBLE to ATTACK while flat-footed through use of Combat Reflexes, it is POSSIBLE to SPEAK while flat-footed.
I'd love to see this FAQ'd so I can stop dealing with it all the time. D:
And like many people who handle rules text wrong, you are arguing backwards. And you're committing the additional sin of false equivalency. Pathfinder isn't a game where it lists what you can't do. It's what you can do, and it's up to you to find a passage which enables you to hold conversations while you're flatfootd.
Combat reflexes only applies to attack mechanics, not speech.
And my argument is that extending the flat-footed condition to also forbid speech is a false equivalency. The rules say that a flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC, cannot make attacks of opportunity, and cannot use immediate actions. Generalizing it to also say that the character cannot take free actions that can ordinarily be taken outside his or her turn is treating those special free actions as equivalent to immediate actions or attacks of opportunity.
In addition many people are confusing the flat-footed portion of the first ordinary round of combat with a surprise round. A surprise round has its own rules.
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Unaware and flat-footed are not the same, though being unaware also causes flat-footedness. Unawareness is determined by Perception; flat-footedness is determined by Initiative or by another condition--unaware or helpless--that means that Initiative is irrelevant.
The dictionary defines "caught flat-footed" as unprepared, unable to react quickly. But it defines plain "flat-footed" as standing firmly with feet flat to the ground (or having the orthopedic condition known as flat feet). That plain definition can explain why a flat-footed person cannot dodge. We don't need to treat flat-footed as the same as unaware. It is not in the rules and not in the dictionary.
So the specific rules about talking allow for talking out of turn, whenever you want... right?
I mean, is someone disagreeing with this?
So the specific rules about talking allow for talking out of turn, whenever you want... right?
But, as mentioned before: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed."
Isn't that more specific than "you can speak when it's not your turn"? If you can't act before your first turn, you presumably can't speak during this time.
Immediate actions can be done when it's not your turn, but that doesn't mean they can be performed before your first initiative action. (Can they?)
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There are more ways to become flat-footed. Some applications of the Acrobatics skill, for example. Do you stop being able to talk while you're crossing a 3' wide wooden beam?
I think the question should be "Can you speak before you've had your first turn in combat?"
It is kind of weird that using Acrobatics makes you flat-footed rather than just causing you to lose your Dex bonus. The rules for Climb are more specific and include losing your Dex bonus to AC but not becoming flat-footed. Anyhow, somebody walking on a tightrope is clearly taking actions. On the most basic level they're using Move actions to walk that tightrope. I also think they'd be allowed to perform other actions.
@Ascalaphus & LazarX - Incidentally, one of my PCs urinated on a fire elemental, and at least two have taken a leak on allies to "help wash off" acid. I can't recall a time when one my PCs took dump "on camera", but I do have a type of swarm in my games called hell monkeys. They eat hellfruit, which is highly acidic and poisonous. They also make a lot of ranged attacks.
You can't take a free action (speaking) before you have had a chance to act.Initiative
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. ...
No where in this rules quote does it say you cannot take a free action. It merely states that flat-footed is the condition you have before you have had a chance to act. It also specifically defines "act" as "before your first regular turn in the initiative order".
There are a lot of great examples that support both sides of the argument in a simulationist sense. However, with speaking being allowed "when it isn't your turn" and "act" being defined as "before your first regular turn in the initiative order", I'm very inclined to allow speaking while flat-footed until a official source says otherwise.
On a separate note, the narrow ground thing in Acrobatics causing flat-footed is just bizarre. Flat-footed seems to be only intended for the beginning of combat. I think there was a bit of disconnect in the design team when all this was originally written. On a similar note, Arcane Trickster's level 10 ability only works vs. flat-footed but it seems like it is probably intended for when target is denied dex bonus to AC.
On a separate note, the narrow ground thing in Acrobatics causing flat-footed is just bizarre. Flat-footed seems to be only intended for the beginning of combat. I think there was a bit of disconnect in the design team when all this was originally written. On a similar note, Arcane Trickster's level 10 ability only works vs. flat-footed but it seems like it is probably intended for when target is denied dex bonus to AC.
There are quite a few "target is flat-footed against your attacks" abilities as well.
On a separate note, the narrow ground thing in Acrobatics causing flat-footed is just bizarre. Flat-footed seems to be only intended for the beginning of combat. I think there was a bit of disconnect in the design team when all this was originally written. On a similar note, Arcane Trickster's level 10 ability only works vs. flat-footed but it seems like it is probably intended for when target is denied dex bonus to AC.
My own guess is that flat-footed at the beginning of combat and when unaware is to allow rogues to sneak attack. If my fuzzy memory is accurate, in first and second edition D&D the thief class had backstab ability, which required approaching the target from the back. Third Edition D&D removed facing from the game, so that sneaking up from the back was literally impossible by the game rules. Instead, the circumstances that used to enable moving behind a target, such as sneaking up, flanking, immobilizing the target character, or rushing in before the character could turn around, became the circumstances that enabled sneak attack. All of those circumstances besides flanking cause the flat-footed condition.
The narrow ground thing is another way of immobilizing a character. Without room to dodge, the character cannot dodge. On the other hand, I don't see why that would deny attacks of opportunity or immediate actions, so it is bizarre. I think narrow ground should have caused loss of Dex bonus to AC rather than full-fledged flat-footed.
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And like many people who handle rules text wrong, you are arguing backwards. And you're committing the additional sin of false equivalency. Pathfinder isn't a game where it lists what you can't do. It's what you can do, and it's up to you to find a passage which enables you to hold conversations while you're flatfootd.This seems to be a point of contention for a lot of people. Flat-footed condition states you are "unable to react normally to the situation." Some people argue that since you cannot take immediate actions while flat-footed, you also cannot speak. I argue that since speaking doesn't say you can't do it while flat-footed AND that since it is POSSIBLE to ATTACK while flat-footed through use of Combat Reflexes, it is POSSIBLE to SPEAK while flat-footed.
I'd love to see this FAQ'd so I can stop dealing with it all the time. D:
This is a philosophical approach to the rules, not a rule in itself.
There are two basic "takes" on rulesets in general: 1) Everything is allowed except those things that are expressly forbidden, and 2) Everything is forbidden except those things that are expressly allowed. Since the rules themselves don't specify which approach you should use, both approaches to the rules are equally valid.In either case, though, when the rule don't cover a specific instance, you have to use analogies, implications, and interpretations. I always try find a situation that is most like the specific instance, then consider the consequences of applying that rule to the instance in question. If the results seem reasonable, then I'll go with it. If the results seem excessively complicated or silly, I'll go back to the rules, find another similar situation, and see what happens if I apply that rule, and so on.
Combat reflexes only applies to attack mechanics, not speech.
But since there's no rule about speech, we need to find a similar situation and see if it makes sense to apply the rule to this situation, too. To me, it seems logical that if characters can attack, they should also be able to speak. I can't come up with any complicated or ridiculous side effects of applying the combat reflexes/uncanny dodge rules to speech, so I'll probably run with that.