I think it's fine in home games to have both 'chained' and 'unchained' classes side by side, although like you said I wouldn't multiclass them in one character. If you're concerned about pathfinder society I think they have the same rules, except the 'chained' summoner is banned.
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Wow. I assume you could multi-class rogue and unchained rogue. But as far as rogue is concerned there is absolutely nothing 'chained' has to offer. Unchained is nothing more than rogue with extra stuff. Nothing taken away.
You could have a 'chained' rogue and an unchained rogue in the same game. Only in PFS if the poor basterd didn't/couldn't purchase the unchained book.
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As someone who worked on Unchained, is very enthusiastic about it, and has a vested interest in seeing people buy and enjoy the book, nonetheless, I would personally recommend that you do not buy Unchained if you don't want a toolbox to use to mod your Pathfinder games but just want the Unchained classes. The classes are nice, but Unchained is all about the spirit of exploration and tinkering throughout all the chapters, opening up options in the same way as a mod creator for a video game lets you make new twists on your favorite games; the classes are just one facet of that.
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As someone who worked on Unchained, is very enthusiastic about it, and has a vested interest in seeing people buy and enjoy the book, nonetheless, I would personally recommend that you do not buy Unchained if you don't want a toolbox to use to mod your Pathfinder games but just want the Unchained classes. The classes are nice, but Unchained is all about the spirit of exploration and tinkering throughout all the chapters, opening up options in the same way as a mod creator for a video game lets you make new twists on your favorite games; the classes are just one facet of that.
Very nice. But as someone who is trying to play a two-weapon fighter rogue, I STRONGLY suggest you purchase unchained. Otherwise you will be at least a feat behind in addition to other drawbacks. Really, unchained means your rogue doesn't get the extras,, your monk is not full FAB,,, your summoner IS NO LONGER LEAGAL.....
Basically it's a book that says everything previous is fine (except summoner), but everyone who has the book will kick you arse!
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Basically it's a book that says everything previous is fine (except summoner), but everyone who has the book will kick you arse!
Unless you play a summoner...or an archetyped monk...or the majority of typical barbarian builds...
So yeah, if you like CRB (non-archetyped) Monks, TWF/Archery Barbarians and Rogues then you might want to use the unchained versions.
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Basically it's a book that says everything previous is fine (except summoner), but everyone who has the book will kick you arse!Unless you play a summoner...or an archetyped monk...or the majority of typical barbarian builds...
So yeah, if you like CRB (non-archetyped) Monks, TWF/Archery Barbarians and Rogues then you might want to use the unchained versions.
That's true. I don't consider a lot of archetypes.
That's true. I don't consider a lot of archetypes....
Basically it's a book that says everything previous is fine (except summoner), but everyone who has the book will kick you arse!Unless you play a summoner...or an archetyped monk...or the majority of typical barbarian builds...
So yeah, if you like CRB (non-archetyped) Monks, TWF/Archery Barbarians and Rogues then you might want to use the unchained versions.
It becomes a problem when pretty much all monk builds use archetypes. Throw them into the mix and the Unchained monk doesn't look so hot. It ends up being just another alternative instead of an upgrade.
As someone who worked on Unchained, is very enthusiastic about it, and has a vested interest in seeing people buy and enjoy the book, nonetheless, I would personally recommend that you do not buy Unchained if you don't want a toolbox to use to mod your Pathfinder games but just want the Unchained classes. The classes are nice, but Unchained is all about the spirit of exploration and tinkering throughout all the chapters, opening up options in the same way as a mod creator for a video game lets you make new twists on your favorite games; the classes are just one facet of that.Very nice. But as someone who is trying to play a two-weapon fighter rogue, I STRONGLY suggest you purchase unchained. Otherwise you will be at least a feat behind in addition to other drawbacks. Really, unchained means your rogue doesn't get the extras,, your monk is not full FAB,,, your summoner IS NO LONGER LEAGAL.....
Basically it's a book that says everything previous is fine (except summoner), but everyone who has the book will kick you arse!
This seems to be about PFS, but the OP mentions he is considering Unchained for a home game.
So the unchained classes can't use archetypes, then?
It is more accurate to say that not all archetypes can be used with the Unchained versions of the classes.
Almost all rogue archetypes work.
I don't think there are any monk archetypes that work.
Most barbarian archetypes work except the Urban Barbarian that changes the Rage mechanics.
I would have to look it up for Summoner, really don't recall what their situation is.
I think you could have a unchained and chained monk, Barbarian, and Summoner side by side without too many problems, although from what I understand the unchained summoner might be a bit weaker.
The rogue though...that gets a straight upgrade from the original version. I don't think you can really have both at the table without the player of the chained version being annoyed.
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I haven't seen a rogue archetype that doesn't work with the unchained rogue because the unchained rogue only adds to the core rogue, it doesn't subtract.
Unchained barbarian is... different? than the core barbarian. It's less math-y.
The unchained monk is light-years better than the core monk for a beginning player. The core monk and its archetypes still have value for someone with a bit more system mastery. (We won't mention Zen Archer. Oh wait, too late.)
Unchained summoner is fixed summoner. Whether you care about that or not in your playgroup is up to you.
The two side-by-sides I'd have problems with would be the rogue and the summoner, since in both cases one is clearly better than the other.
Responding to the conversation, if not the OP--besides the classes, I am a big fan of the background skills and I am somewhat in favor of skill unlocks, myself. Both are going to be added to my home games or have already been. The stamina system is another system that I particularly enjoy and support, although it does increase the complexity of the classes that can make use of it. I'm trying to hand it out to the fighters in one of my campaigns and they've never even bothered trying to use it.
I don't know if those are worth buying the book for, but it certainly has value beyond the classes.
One of the appeals the unchained barbarian had for my GM was killing the rage cycle gimmick. No more 1/rage powers, a little consolidation there. There was a bit of a downgrade in how rage now affects my greataxe-swinging rageball, but at least this was done mid-2d level so it didn't really rock things that much. (Don't know how our rogue's liking his new stuff compared to the old yet, but we had noticed he was struggling to get any kind of flank action.)
As someone who worked on Unchained, is very enthusiastic about it, and has a vested interest in seeing people buy and enjoy the book, nonetheless, I would personally recommend that you do not buy Unchained if you don't want a toolbox to use to mod your Pathfinder games but just want the Unchained classes. The classes are nice, but Unchained is all about the spirit of exploration and tinkering throughout all the chapters, opening up options in the same way as a mod creator for a video game lets you make new twists on your favorite games; the classes are just one facet of that.
Please don't let this be a veiled statement in which you are saying that there won't be any further support (Rogue Talents, Rage Powers, Unchained Monk archetypes) for these classes.
As someone who worked on Unchained, is very enthusiastic about it, and has a vested interest in seeing people buy and enjoy the book, nonetheless, I would personally recommend that you do not buy Unchained if you don't want a toolbox to use to mod your Pathfinder games but just want the Unchained classes. The classes are nice, but Unchained is all about the spirit of exploration and tinkering throughout all the chapters, opening up options in the same way as a mod creator for a video game lets you make new twists on your favorite games; the classes are just one facet of that.Please don't let this be a veiled statement in which you are saying that there won't be any further support (Rogue Talents, Rage Powers, Unchained Monk archetypes) for these classes.
Don't worry, I am sure there will be 3pp support for it.
...You do use 3pp, don't you.
As someone who worked on Unchained, is very enthusiastic about it, and has a vested interest in seeing people buy and enjoy the book, nonetheless, I would personally recommend that you do not buy Unchained if you don't want a toolbox to use to mod your Pathfinder games but just want the Unchained classes. The classes are nice, but Unchained is all about the spirit of exploration and tinkering throughout all the chapters, opening up options in the same way as a mod creator for a video game lets you make new twists on your favorite games; the classes are just one facet of that.Please don't let this be a veiled statement in which you are saying that there won't be any further support (Rogue Talents, Rage Powers, Unchained Monk archetypes) for these classes.Don't worry, I am sure there will be 3pp support for it.
...You do use 3pp, don't you.
I do. Now my GM...
If you use unchained versions of classes in the game, should you not use the "chained" versions of those classes in the same game?
Like, can one character be an unchained rogue, and another player be the original flavor? I'm going to assume you can't multiclass the two together, nor could you multiclass an unchained rogue with ninja, right?
Really, no-one should be a "Chained" Rogue anymore. There's simply no reason whatsoever. The Unchained Rogue can take every option, every FCB, every Archetype that the "Chained" Rogue can - it is literally the exact same chassis as the "Chained" Rogue with better parts.
The Unchained Monk is so radically different than the basic Monk that it is basically an Archetype; it cannot take ANY of the Archetypes from Pre-Occult Adventures books. There are plenty of reasons to have both the Unchained AND "Chained" Monk in the same party; in fact, a Party can be made entirely of an Unchained Monk, a "Chained" Monk, a Brawler, and a Sacred Fist Warpriest.
The Unchained Barbarian I would suggest against entirely - it is fine in a vacuum, but creates more problems than it solves because its interactions with so, so many other rules. Effectively, it's just a gigantic rules-nightmare for both you and the DM if you try to use basically ANYTHING with it besides Core Rulebook stuff (and even THEN it's pretty gnarly).
The Unchained Summoner... most people will say to not mix the Unchained with the original Summoner simply on the grounds that the Summoner is a legitimately broken class, and EASILY the most-powerful class that's not a 9th level spellcaster (in fact, by some accounts, it's actually MORE powerful than some 9th-level casters).
Also, yes, you are correct in that the Unchained Classes are effectively "Alternate Classes" of their originals and cannot be multiclassed with.
As soon as PF Unchained hit the table I told the rogue player to upgrade her character (she is also party leader and the Queen of our Kingmaker campaign). And just like that, she stopped dipping into negative hit points every encounter. I had been wondering if there was something wrong with the Hero Lab encounter builder because opponents with a CR that should have been an even match for the party kept the rogue hanging on for dear life.
If the Unchained Rogue is available in your game, you would play the standard rogue only if you failed a reading comprehension test because it is a straight-up upgrade. Or maybe upgrade is the wrong term -- it is a correction for a class the wasn't pulling its own weight previously.
Standard Rogue is still good if you want to make a Bomber build. That's about it.
I just hit third level with my unchained barbarian, so it's feat time. Raging Vitality for some reason isn't really available anymore :)
As far as new talents, rage powers, ki powers, and so on ... that's a good question. I do know that the newer classes were getting support -- the first I'd seen of the Magus was in Ultimate Combat, not having actually purchased Ultimate Magic myself. Whether they'll put new options and modify them for their unchained companions (or, for the monk, set up new ones) is another question. It may depend on how much they seem to be getting used in the field.
I just hit third level with my unchained barbarian, so it's feat time. Raging Vitality for some reason isn't really available anymore :)
It also depends heavily on how much of a gigantic rules-cluster-f#%# the classes are, and how much the devs will have to bend over backwards to make them work. The Rogue and Summoner aren't a gigantic concern; the Monk is a little weird, but doable; the Barbarian... no. Abso-freakin'-lutely no way in hell, at least not in the most peripheral of manners.
As far as new talents, rage powers, ki powers, and so on ... that's a good question. I do know that the newer classes were getting support -- the first I'd seen of the Magus was in Ultimate Combat, not having actually purchased Ultimate Magic myself. Whether they'll put new options and modify them for their unchained companions (or, for the monk, set up new ones) is another question. It may depend on how much they seem to be getting used in the field.
Unchained Rogue is the new default Rogue, and changes nothing about how the Rogue's options are written, so everything before and after the Unchained Rogue is fine. The Unchained Rogue will be receiving new options pretty much constantly, then.
Unchained Summoner didn't change enough to alter how options for them are written, so that'll get support going forward (and most options before still work for it).
The Unchained Monk will now be considered when making Monk Archetypes and options from this point forward, so that "Monk" options will function for either the Base or Unchained Monks (no Pre-Unchained archetypes work for the Unchained Monk, but almost all other options do).
The Unchained Barbarian is more-than-likely a one-and-done thing. SO many options based around the Barbarian assumed that it would get bonuses to Stats etc. that the Unchained Barbarian is all-but-unplayable with any of those options, including Feats, Class abilities, Items, Spells, and, of course, Archetypes. Expect the Unchained Barbarian to get NO support whatsoever - it's basically only usable for Core campaigns or as a beginner class.
The rogue though...that gets a straight upgrade from the original version.
Unchained rogue can't get Vanish as a ki power, so it's not entirely an upgrade. They did snuff out some things as part of the balancing act, I guess. But most people don't care. I care only because it was my go-to trick with rogues.
The rogue though...that gets a straight upgrade from the original version.Unchained rogue can't get Vanish as a ki power, so it's not entirely an upgrade. They did snuff out some things as part of the balancing act, I guess. But most people don't care. I care only because it was my go-to trick with rogues.
They may have kinda lost the ability to Vanish as a Ki Ability, but they gained the ability to Vanish as a Spell-Like ability several times a day without the need to have a high Wis to do so.
So, ends up being a non-issue, honestly.