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For example, Pageant of the Peacock costs 1 round of bardic performance to use and lasts 10 minutes. After starting that masterpiece, for the next 10 minutes, are you unable to use bardic performance for any other use without ending the Pageant?
My plan is to use that for linguistics and combine that with the new Xenoglossy feat (since my character has a MUCH higher Bluff check than Linguistics)... and the idea of communicating with someone using dance is intriguing. I want to be able to use my bardic performances to enhance my allies and be able to communicate with them if we don't share a language.
"BEWARE MY PELVIC SORCERY!"
If I'm remembering correctly, while masterpieces certainly have many similarities to performances they are not actually the same thing. That means the rules about having multiple performances going at the same time don't apply and you can have one of each running at the same time with no interference.
You're not remembering correctly, a bardic masterpiece is just a performance same as any other.
You're not remembering correctly, a bardic masterpiece is just a performance same as any other.
Is it? I just reread the d20 pfsrd page on the subject and while they cost rounds of performance to activate they don't seem to be the same thing otherwise. Just two different abilities that use the same resource.
Expect Table Variation, but JJ said they were different uses of the same pool and would be usable at the same time in his "Not A Rules Guy" thread.
No
James Jacobs later fixed his opinions. He stated that masterpieces are performances and you can't have both at the same time.
Also the actual book, not d20pfsrd, states "This section introduces masterpieces—specialized uses of the bardic performance class ability that allow a bard to do amazing things".
It doesn't state that they are a different use of your rounds but a separate ability. It says specifically that they fall under the bard's performance ability.
There is also this unfortunate line in the bard performance ability section.
"A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time."
Because masterpieces are performances, the instant you start a new performance/nasterpiece it ends all the effects of the previous one.
Masterpieces are pretty useless till you pick up Virtuoso Performance or we get a favorable FAQ to fix the mechanics.
The issue is that because the only way to legally use a masterpiece and a basic performance is through a spell of 4th lvl or higher, masterpieces become very limited. If your going to use one in this manner it might as well be the best one and only that one. Freedom of movement for everyone.
The issue is that because the only way to legally use a masterpiece and a basic performance is through a spell of 4th lvl or higher, masterpieces become very limited. If your going to use one in this manner it might as well be the best one and only that one. Freedom of movement for everyone.
I would take Pageant of the Peacock too.
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Just a heads up. Since masterpieces are performances this clause comes into play: "A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in EFFECT at one time"
As far as I can tell the only way to have a masterpiece and traditional performance in EFFECT at the same time is to use one of the specialized spells (also an archetype that lets your animal companion sing a diddy).
I emphasize EFFECT because I think this means that even if you did a masterpiece that has a long lasting effect (Triple Time, Pageant of the Peacock, etc.) and are no longer using an action to start it but are still under its effect, that effect ends immediately when you start another performance. The only way around this is to start the second performance using one of said mechanisms (spells / archetype).
Masterpieces are in serious need of an FAQ but we have never been able to garner the needed clicks to push it up to the top of the list. It's been broken long enough that people have just written them off.
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I'm definitely in the "Masterpieces effects last even if you start another performance" camp. Without that they are almost all pretty much completely useless. Even WITH that most of them are pretty awful.
For what its worth I've never had a PFS GM rule the other way. I like bards so that probably translates to at least 20 GMs at least some of whom are both quite knowledgeable about the rules and reasonably strict on their interpretations.
Wow, thanks for the answers! I've never really looked much at the masterpieces (I don't make too many bards) so I didn't realize that there wasn't a hard and fast rule.
Or maybe there is (the masterpiece is an performance effect and is handled in the same way). Does that mean you can use Lingering Performance or a Tuned Bowstring or something else along those lines unless it specifies otherwise?
For masterpieces this rule applies.
"Unless otherwise stated, effects or feats that extend the duration of bardic performance (such as the Lingering Performance feat) do not apply to masterpieces."
For masterpieces this rule applies.
"Unless otherwise stated, effects or feats that extend the duration of bardic performance (such as the Lingering Performance feat) do not apply to masterpieces."
Ah well then :) thanks!
My personal opinion is that they are more useful to look at for those bards that trade out inspire courage. Now I'm not saying those archetypes are good, but I saw a bard that traded it out make pretty decent use of the teamwork feat masterpiece.
My current opinion is that since it requires a spell to double down on the masterpiece/inspire courage combo that it only makes sense to focus on the best one that you are willing to drop not only a known spell for but to also then cast a spell to use. In my opinion very few if any make that cut. The best being Symphony of the Elysian Heart. This gives you something that isn't available and stupid useful, MASS Freedom of Movement. Now the whole party is immune to a variety of save or die/suck nastiness and you can then combo out some difficult terrain with stone call.
Expect Table Variation, but JJ said they were different uses of the same pool and would be usable at the same time in his "Not A Rules Guy" thread.No
James Jacobs later fixed his opinions. He stated that masterpieces are performances and you can't have both at the same time.
Yes, he unfortunately recanted on a previous ruling which now makes many of these brilliant and creative ideas irrelevant or next to useless. He "fixed" what was not broken. At my table, his "fix" does not exist. What is the harm in allowing both? There isn't anything game breaking in allowing both at once.
In a homegame I am with you. Right now though, all of my playing and GMing is through PFS and as such I have to go with the flow of rules updates.
I may right another FAQ request this weekend for this issue.
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Additional useful citation
Action: This line indicates the type of action performing the masterpiece requires. If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well.
@cavall: it is not a ruling, it is a rule.
Unless otherwise stated, effects or feats that extend the duration of bardic performance (such as the Lingering Performance feat) do not apply to masterpieces.
And the bard perform ability is not music.
Many Masterpieces include the language "upon completing the performance" or similar phrasing.
Looking (briefly) at the other threads discussing this same issue, they seem to mostly be focused on simultaneous performance, including the James Jacobs referenced post (I cannot locate the refutation post).
I fully agree that Masterpieces should not be able to be performed simultaneously as other normal Performance, but I also agree that ongoing magical effects that extend beyond "completing the performance" as specified in the Masterpiece should not be negated by standard performance or even other Masterpieces.
Also, no normal Performance provides an ongoing effect "upon completing the performance". The rules in the regular bardic performance section would not readily apply in the same way.
It seems the real question is - does starting a new standard performance negate the magical effects (that you pay for with feats and spell slots and performance rounds) that come into effect at the completion of a Masterpiece?
The rules and language about having 2 bardic performances in effect at the same time come entirely from the section about ending and beginning performance, not long term effects that emulate spellcasting "upon completing the performance".
Based on the language and context of the rules semantics in question, this seems unclear, and is definitely deserving of clarification.
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We should probably get this FAQed. I know what three of the designers think from personal interaction with them, but they were not all in agreement.
I want to point out that the language of the benefit of one performance ending when another starts only shows up in lingering performance, which des mot effect masterpieces unless the masterpiece says so.
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We should probably get this FAQed. I know what three of the designers think from personal interaction with them, but they were not all in agreement.
I want to point out that the language of the benefit of one performance ending when another starts only shows up in lingering performance, which des mot effect masterpieces unless the masterpiece says so.
Actually it is in the bard description in the CRB, under Bardic performance:
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
Originally, James Jacobs ruled that while Masterpieces USE Bardic Performance as a resource, it was NOT Bardic Performance and therefore could be "up" at the same time.
He since rescinded this and shot the whole Masterpiece idea all to hell. Which is why I am rebelling...do you see what I did there?!
That language (quoted by Diego) from the CRB is in reference to an effect that is tied directly to the performance in real (game) time, as in - I can't sing two songs at once, or inspire courage from a song simultaneously as I inspire competence from oratory.
There truly is a difference between having two performances going simultaneously and having an effect that was a result of a prior masterpiece performance active at the same time as an effect that is active as a result of a currently active performance.
The CRB language really reads as though it is just poor choice of words. They use the phrase "changing a bardic performance from one effect to another" which should likely be something along the lines of {changing a bardic performance from one type of performance to another type of performance}. "Cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect" uses the term "effect" in a grammatically different manner and is thus confusing. Note that it says that you can't have more than one performance <in effect>, not that you can't have more than one effect active. Yes, that is totally confusing and likely at the root of the continued variation in interpretation.
Again, if anyone looks at the James Jacobs comment and question and subsequent rescinding - it was related to two performances being performed simultaneously. This is clearly not intended. The question/answer/rescind did not cover the residual effect of a prior completed masterpiece and how it interacts with a current, non-completion-dependent performance effect such as Triple Time being active at the same time as Inspire Courage.
The fact that you are trading spell slots and feats for a spell-equivalent effect is highly indicative that the upon-completion masterpiece effects should be persistent and durable.
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Note that it says that you can't have more than one performance <in effect>, not that you can't have more than one effect active.
You can benefit from the performance of multiple bards, so you can have multiple performance effects active on you, but you can't have more than one performance in effect, i.e. you can't keep active more than 1 performance.
So I know that this thread never started as a true FAQ request. However it did wrack up 9 requests. So I wrote a thread specific to the issues and aimed solely at an FAQ.
CLICK HERE for the Bardic Masterpiece FAQ request. Click the blue FAQ at the top right. Leave a post on your thoughts / opinions as this helps keep the thread alive and on the front page. A living FAQ is an FAQ that gets answered.