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Ok folks this little game breaker seems like it could derail the remainder of my campaign, so I'm grasping at straws here.
The tie up option line states If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty.
Is that combat manuveur check a simple, flat CMB roll at -10? Any bonuses for improved grapple and/or controlling the grapple yo that roll?
It's an option of the grapple combat maneuver, so all normal grapple bonuses should apply.
How will this derail your campaign? I assume you have a fighter (or some other class, but I'll say fighter) who is really good at grappling and ruining some encounters?
Round 1: The fighter moves next to an enemy and makes a CMB to grapple him. He succeeds so now they are BOTH grappled (this makes the fighter easier for that enemy's allies to hit).
Round 2: If the fighter survived all the attacks from the enemy's allies and if the enemy failed to escape, the fighter can make another CMB to pin the enemy. He succeeds, and they are still both grappled and the fighter loses his DEX bonus to his AC making him even easier for the enemy's allies to hit and Sneak Attack too.
Round 3: If the fighter survived all those attacks and sneak attacks from the enemy's allies and if the enemy failed to escape once again, the fighter can make a third CMB check to tie up the enemy, this time at -10. That succeeds. The fighter releases his grapple as a free action so he can now try to defend what's left of his HP from the enemy's allies.
So a minimum of three rounds to eliminate one opponent (more if the grapple checks don't succeed), during which time the fighter is vulnerable to attacks.
Don't forget that the enemy's allies can Aid Another to help him escape the grapples.
Or they could grapple the fighter, using Aid Another to get a success - don't forget that the fighter is already grappled because of his own grapple and those penalties to his DEX and AC apply to his CMB too, making him easier to hit AND easier to grapple. If they successfully grapple the fighter, then he can only use one hand to maintain his own grapple (-4 penalty) and, although it isn't explicit in RAW, you are well within your right as a reasonable GM to say you need two hands to tie up an opponent so it cannot be done while being grappled.
As long as you aren't running a campaign where the heroes fight one solo BBEG after another, this should not even be a problem for your game.
If it really is a problem after all that, consider having word spread around the region that this famous hero is a mighty grappler and no man nor beast can escape his clutches - now all the bad guys hear this rumor and start preparing any number of spells (or potions or other magical items) to avoid being grappled: Grease, Gaseous Form, Blink, Invisibility, Flight (to stay above the grappler, out of reach), a Salve of Slipperiness, the Liberating Command spell, and many others.
Yes, I know there are feats that can improve this process and even make it take fewer rounds. But those feats come at a cost - the fighter could have taken OTHER feats that are pretty cool too, but he didn't. For that reason, this fighter is less effective in ordinary combat but more effective in grapples, so I would let the player have his fun, at least sometimes, so he can feel like his investment was worth it.
If the player is not a martial guy, but rather a caster using Black Tentacles or some other grappling spell while some PCs dive into the tentacles to tie up the grappled enemies (and somehow are not grappled themselves), then the same preparations work and enemies can still aid another to escape (even two adjacent grappled enemies can take turns aiding each other as needed), plus you can do other things like Dispel Magic or counterspelling or even Anti-magic zones.
Actually, DM Blake, part of your suggestion is wrong; you cannot attack while pinned. There was a thread I found from a few years ago that contains a post with an email from Jason that spells out the limited actions one can take while pinned. I've linked the specific post.
The problem is probably not that they fight one solo boss, but that he uses a single caster as a BBEG, and then just throws in some martial minions (possibly with a big mean scary beast as well as a few minor minions). Because of course the thing that derails the entire campaign with grappling is the shut down of an important caster.
I know having a great and powerful wizard is attractive for a BBEG...but it carries the obvious risk of him being targeted and that common wizard weaknesses are used. Because even the prescence of minions doesn't change the caster's own individual threat (well, it might increase it if he starts buffing and such)
It is probably better to have multiple casters and just scale down their individual threat. IE- slightly weaker BBEG and his apprentice/accomplice, or two casters serving under a warlord that has his own interesting things going on (I like tactician and coordinated charge myself)
I suggest all this rather than the usual "just shut off grappling" suggestions since it is hardly fair to the fighter. He made a build that was entirely effective and did exactly what it was supposed to do- shut down a single important target. Consistently making the important target practically immune to grappling makes all his investment worthless. It just comes off as a punishment for having something nice.
So just give the fighter other things to do by giving more targets, or at least keep resources in reserve when he does take on the big important target. Fighter gets to severely limit the enemy's resources, you still get some spells to pose a threat to the rest of the party- everyone wins (well...one side loses, obviously...but you get what I mean)
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BBEG caster should be a Conjurer - Teleportation Subschool and simply Dimension Shift (SU) out of grapple. With Dimensional Agility and he still gets a full round actions for everything else.
If you don't want to shut down a player build completely, he should have Fly, wear a Haramaki with Spell storing to inflict damage of some sort when attacked.
Haste increases fly speed so he should bomb them from altitude and if they use a fly potion/scroll , hold an action to dispel magic when they get close.
Shirt of Immolation is another great anti-grappling option for your BBEGs. Getting hit for 1d6+10 per round for up to 10 rounds isn't anything to sneeze at. And being the GM you could rule that the shirt continues to burn whiled Tied-Up and burn through the ropes.
Actually, DM Blake, part of your suggestion is wrong; you cannot attack while pinned. There was a thread I found from a few years ago that contains a post with an email from Jason that spells out the limited actions one can take while pinned. I've linked the specific post.
You're right, you cannot attack while pinned. But I never suggested that the pinned enemy could attack. I said the "enemy's allies" could attack.
You're right, you cannot attack while pinned. But I never suggested that the pinned enemy could attack. I said the "enemy's allies" could attack.Actually, DM Blake, part of your suggestion is wrong; you cannot attack while pinned. There was a thread I found from a few years ago that contains a post with an email from Jason that spells out the limited actions one can take while pinned. I've linked the specific post.
Blargh, so you did. That's what I get for reading while still half asleep. My apologies, Blake.
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BBEG caster should be a Conjurer - Teleportation Subschool and simply Dimension Shift (SU) out of grapple. With Dimensional Agility and he still gets a full round actions for everything else.
Wouldn't he still have to pass a rather mean concentration check to make it work? (And I'm not sure Shift works with Dimensional Agility by RAW either.)
Couldn't he achieve tie more quickly with Rapid Grapple and Greater Grapple? Potentially allowing you to tie up an enemy in 1 round, assuming you were next to them and had a standard, move, and swift available. If you had to move to the enemy, then you could still grapple and then pin and tie up on round 2.
I agree this can be problematic...if you try to have one BBEG type enemy. You simply need to run more enemies of a slightly lower CR.
So with that party you're already altering the campaign. Just grab some mooks with sneak attack and have them join the BBEG. Let the grappler grab the BBEG and even Pin him. Now the grappler PC loses his DEX so those mooks hit him fairly easily and they all sneak attack. If he survives, that's when another ally casts Grease on the BBEG, giving him a +10 bonus to escape AND to avoid being grappled, so when your grappler PC tries to Tie him Up, taking his own -10 to do it.
That's two stacking -10 penalties so now your BBEG will only get nerfed on a roll of about 24.
And bonus, all those sneak attacks will leave some hurt on that grappler PC.
Too much work?
Just have the guy Grease himself first. That's +10 to his CMB (making him nerfed on about a 14) AND it's also +10 to anything he does to escape, giving him a very good chance of escaping if the PC beats that enhanced CMD.
Or give him a potion of Gaseous Form to use the first time he's grappled and for added points, his extra mooks use spells like Slow or Hold Person on your grappler PC to keep him there and make him much easier to handle while the gas cloud moves off to the side and reforms in a safe location. Maybe inside a locked cell where he can blast with spells but cannot be grappled...
Couldn't he achieve tie more quickly with Rapid Grapple and Greater Grapple? Potentially allowing you to tie up an enemy in 1 round, assuming you were next to them and had a standard, move, and swift available. If you had to move to the enemy, then you could still grapple and then pin and tie up on round 2.
I agree this can be problematic...if you try to have one BBEG type enemy. You simply need to run more enemies of a slightly lower CR.
If he's put that much effort into it, he should be allowed to use it. A lot.
But not all the time. And BBEGs should usually be able to handle it.
Have the BBEG stand right behind a hidden pit - grappler runs up to grapple him and bye bye, down you go. For added points, have it be a 10'x10' pit, 50' deep, with a gelatinous cube at the bottom - let your grappler tie up the cube...
Even more bonus points if the cube is 10' above the bottom of the pit which is filled with 9' or so of water - PC falls THROUGH the cube, getting paralyzed on the way down, and then drowns in the water because paralyzed is even more helpless than tied up and he can't swim. If he makes that save, have fun climbing out through the cube, have fun throwing down a rope when all it does is land on the cube, and have fun breathing when the air is limited below the cube, and have fun dealing with swimming, breathing, and fighting the cube when it comes down to eat...
(oh, and piranhas in the water...)
(or if you're into Karma, put a giant octopus down there...)
Couldn't he achieve tie more quickly with Rapid Grapple and Greater Grapple? Potentially allowing you to tie up an enemy in 1 round, assuming you were next to them and had a standard, move, and swift available. If you had to move to the enemy, then you could still grapple and then pin and tie up on round 2.
I agree this can be problematic...if you try to have one BBEG type enemy. You simply need to run more enemies of a slightly lower CR.
If he's put that much effort into it, he should be allowed to use it. A lot.
But not all the time. And BBEGs should usually be able to handle it.
I agree, just pointing out that it's not 3 rounds necessarily. And that I understand why it can be troublesome for GMs to handle such a tactic.
It's also worth noting Talos that the CR rating scheme doesn't work very well if you have an optimized party. You should know that an optimized party counts as about 2 CR higher than their level actually indicates. Personally, I apply the advanced template to everything in every written Adventure Path, as well as maximize the hp of every creature (whereas they're all stated out with average hp per HD). That's usually enough to shift encounters back to the appropriate level of challenge. Throwing in some tricky traps (in the combat not outside, traps are worthless outside combat) can really help to make combat more tactical and challenging too.
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On the flip side of this, capturing the BBEG like this isn't necessarily the end of the world. Let the PCs capture him and bring him in for justice. Once in prison, he can now work behind the scenes on whatever plot he had going. Plus he's got plenty of potential minions all around him. Down the road, as his plots continue, let the PCs have the fun of breaking into the prison to get him.
Of course, this could always be a simulacrum of the BBEG. Or a henchman who looks like him. And so on.
Even if they kill him, it's not all over. They killed a helpless captive? Let him rise as a ghost to continue with his plans, plus an extra incentive to find his murderers....
All of this lets the grappler PC have his character shine and not remove character agency, instead letting the PCs' actions drive narrative a bit.
Regardless, the grappler will be remembered in the next match-up. The BBEG will be better prepared. And likely have some minions who do well at that themselves, like a marilith tetori or something....
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Last time we tied up a baddie he committed suicide in prison drinking a poison that turned it into something like a plague zombie but worse that almost caused an outbreak.
Good times.
I read it differently.
If the target is merely grappled, you can't simply tie him up. Try it some time. Grab your friend with one hand and then grab a rope and tie him up - while he is doing everything he can do to escape. Even if you get a rope around him, I'd like to see how you actually "tie" that rope with only one hand. Oh, yeah, and you have to finish the process in just 6 seconds.
Even professional rodeo "calf roping" superstars can't beat 6 seconds (the world record is just over 6 seconds) and they're big men tying up a small calf.
As I read the rules, if your target is pinned (by anyone) you can tie him up, but if you're grappling him (you're the one pinning him) you take a -10 because it's hard to keep him pinned with just one hand while you tie him up with just one hand.
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BBEG caster should be a Conjurer - Teleportation Subschool and simply Dimension Shift (SU) out of grapple. With Dimensional Agility and he still gets a full round actions for everything else.Wouldn't he still have to pass a rather mean concentration check to make it work? (And I'm not sure Shift works with Dimensional Agility by RAW either.)
Supernatural abilities do not provoke and are not disrupted by combat. So no on concentration checks. Shift will definitely clear grapples.
As far as interaction between shift and dim agility, I firmly believe they do work (not as a prereq though). If Dim Agility modified how Dim door spells were cast I'd agree but since it means you aren't disoriented after DD it is you not the spell. This means it would apply to similar effects, but I understand table variation exists and have no wish to derail this thread.
Regardless, Shift breaks grapple. No AOO or concentration check required.
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Baumfluch is right:
You can tie up someone while they are pinned with no penalty on the roll , or you can tie up someone while they are grappled with a -10 penalty on the roll. They don't have to be pinned.
I read something recently that backs this interpretation up, a class ability or a feat that reduces the penalty, I can't remember where. But it's legit.
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Ultimate Combat has an archetype for the standard monk called 'Tetori'. It has several abilities working with grapple, and also gets bonus feats towards grappling
These abilities with the feats available (and free for the Tetori) make them superb grapplers. Many of the ways normal characters would escape the clutches are restricted or minimized. Even freedom of movement one of the big spell defenses can be defeated. A conjurer's Su teleportation can be stopped by a high-level Tetori. It can become a real problem.
Some of the advice in this thread is really good, however. Have support for the BBEG, and he has a much better chance of surviving.
With Snapping Turtle Clutch and Greater Grapple the Martial can immediate action grapple on the enemies turn, then pin as a standard action, and tie up as a move action on his turn (assuming he has rope in hand at the start of the fight). Pretty powerful.
Alternatively a wizard can disintegrate as a standard action.
Leave the nice things martials get alone.
If the fighter is getting his ass kicked by minions while he grapples the BBEG, his teammates suck =P
Personally, my favorite jerk grappling move isn't to tie someone up, but to just walk them over to where other people can full attack them.
Grappling's extremely powerful, but has the drawback of being outright negated by an enormous number of abilities. (Though someone already pointed out the tetori, who gets to give the finger to all that stuff.)
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Personally, I apply the advanced template to everything in every written Adventure Path, as well as maximize the hp of every creature (whereas they're all stated out with average hp per HD).
I must say - while the advanced template seems fine to me - the max HP seems to be a mistake. It's yet another thing which gives a further edge to casters vs martials as martials deal with things by chewing through their HP 98% of the time, while casters have a bunch of other ways to do so.
