did the fighter lose bravery? it's a class feature.No, I'd say the wizard equivalent of a naked fighter doesn't have spells prepared.even so he keeps all his prepared spellsWell, to be fair, a Wizard without his spell component pouch isn't going to do much better... Though he can solve that problem with a single feat.Well... He might have an adamantine weapon, so there is that....I mentioned naked so it is purely a measure of.class abilities vs class abilities. A level 20 should atleast be able yo JUMP that high or something... but a simple pillar is kinda saSo is the ability to use weapons, if he has them on hand. Or use armor well, if he is wearing it. Just like a wizard has the ability to cast spells, if he has them memorized. Or a sorcerer to cast his known spells, if he has the slots unspent.
unfortunately you don't get to have a weapon though even if your weapon is taken away, however, you keep prepared spells even if your spellbook is taken away.
Could he not just pick up the first crossbow bolt the Kobold fired and throw it the Kobold. Killing it instantly?Ammunition is destroyed on a successful hit. Granted, he could pick up anything the Kobold missed hitting him with and throw that back at him.
Unless he was Dexterity Focused and/or took Improvised Weapon Feats he might have a hard time hitting the Kobold. -4 nonproficiency for use of an improvised weapon, -6 for being 30 feet away, -4 for throwing at a prone shooter. That's a -14 to hit, and a non-dex-focused Fighter might have all of +2-3 dexterity, giving less than 50% chance to hit, and he'll have the opportunity to throw less than 50% of the shots fired at him because naked Fighter AC [unless dex focused] is absolute garbage.
he also has cover...
Could he not just pick up the first crossbow bolt the Kobold fired and throw it the Kobold. Killing it instantly?don't they break... wait why not just throw a rock?
If it hits, it breaks. If it misses, 50% chance to break. If it doesn't break, the fighter can kill the kobold. I think.
What rules are there for throwing ammunition? Or punching the wall to break a piece of rock to throw it (as BW2 suggested)?
Do note how I said Sorcerer...The sorcerer equivalent of a naked fighter doesn't have any hands or mouth. Hmm... Maybe I'm proving your point.
But maybe the martial equivalent of a sorcerer is a brawler, in which case it's much more dependent on who wins initiative.
we said naked not maimed, there is no "equivalent" we meant it purely based on the English use of the word.
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Blank empty room where no one has gear... only time a monk is decent :P
wasn't it level 10?
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Doesn't need the whole bolt, just the metal head.
Naked level 20 fighter....the thinking mans character :)
in PF when bolts break they disintegrate, the god of economics probably does it.
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This is turning into an amusing thought challenge lol.
Oh and for the Sorc/wiz... you still have school amd bloodline abilties... so even without spells they can kill the Kobold... or you know... familiars...
They'd never build a legitimate initiator-knock-off type thing for Fighters, because they hilariously overvalue being able to do things an unlimited number of times a day.There is almost zero chance that they'd go anywhere near those kinds of class features, without making the classes that have them even worse in return.
The main point is that they never build something like that for the fighter but for spellcasters it is totally ok. Or are level 0 spells not unlimited?
Why can casters have everything unlimited that fighters get (attacks, maneuvers, movement, etc.) and unlimited cantrips/orizons in addition to that while martials are not allowed additional unlimited stuff special for them?Literary everything the martials can do all day long are things the casters can do, too. Some, like many 6th level casters nearly as good as the martials.
If it is a wizard and we assume he has his class features even if he doesn't have his spells memorized he still has either his familiar (as has been stated) or his bonded item (we said naked but we said he has his class features so specific beats general) meaning he has one spell he can cast that is written in his book (it doesn't say he has to have the book on his person). A 10th or 20th level wizard should have a spell without material components that will kill the kobold or bring the wizard to safety.
Plus school powers.
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Oh amd scrollsAnd wands
And beads...
And bonded items....
And enchanted Staffs...
Bonded item is once per day.
All the other items here represent use of wealth by level, not class features. Martials can also use wealth by level to "get nice things"
And even then, having the right spell for the right situation is no sure thing, especially if the magic item creation rules are obeyed and any reasonable amount of care is taken in treating the acquisition of new spells via copying as a challenging activity.
Scribe Scroll is handed to the Wizard at level one.
Wizards get bonus Metamagic/Item Creation feats every 5 levels, so it's super-easy to pick up Craft Wand.Between these two options, you can be prepared for anything, and for half the cost of just buying it from a shop.
As for copying spells, most of your truly useful niche spells are low-mid level, and if you "properly" follow the rules, are going to be available in most cities (based on % rolls).
Also, every caster worth their salt is going to be maxing out Spellcraft, so making the rolls really shouldn't be an issue either.
And, finally, in the rare cases where all of the above doesn't work, you can always just Summon Monster Y and have them cast a spell for you.
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Nope. If a fighter doesn't get his weapons or armor, then the wizard doesn't get his familiar.If it is a wizard and we assume he has his class features even if he doesn't have his spells memorized he still has either his familiar (as has been stated) or his bonded item (we said naked but we said he has his class features so specific beats general) meaning he has one spell he can cast that is written in his book (it doesn't say he has to have the book on his person). A 10th or 20th level wizard should have a spell without material components that will kill the kobold or bring the wizard to safety.
Plus school powers.
Weapons and/or armor are not guaranteed to the Fighter. The Bonded Item is guaranteed to the Wizard. Your argument is weak.
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Class features for a fighter include his ability to use certain weapons well, so if you deny him weapons, you are denying him his class features.If it is a wizard and we assume he has his class features even if he doesn't have his spells memorized he still has either his familiar (as has been stated) or his bonded item (we said naked but we said he has his class features so specific beats general) meaning he has one spell he can cast that is written in his book (it doesn't say he has to have the book on his person). A 10th or 20th level wizard should have a spell without material components that will kill the kobold or bring the wizard to safety.
Plus school powers.
However, the weapons themselves aren't class features. It's the difference between knowing how to drive and owning a car.
Gunslingers, OTOH, do start with a simple firearm... Not great, but at leas the isn't empty-handed. Bladebound Magus has his black blade...
Off the top of my head, I don't remember any other class that has an in-built "You have this weapon. Period." class feature.
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Honestly, when PF 2e happens I expect that at most it would be more akin to PF 1.5e. 90% of the core rules stay the same, but lots of little tweaks to (hopefully) make things more balanced and clear up all those rules issues that can't be solved without a major rewrite (like mounted combat).
That is almost certainly what we'll get. But it's also going to be unsatisfactory to the "fighters should get nice things" crowd. I personally consider myself to be in the "fighters should get nice things" crowd, but I realise while I play Pathfinder it's unlikely to be a core part of the rules. I am happy for optional rules to cover it though. Unfortunately on it's face Paths of War goes too far, so I'm looking at the root of the problem (more firepower isn't needed) and try to find thematic ways to bridge that gap.
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It's as always: Once the "there is no problem" people start running out of arguments they start trolling.
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Naked fighter...
Improved Unarmed
Deflect Arrows
Snatch Arrow
If in range (he can throw 50ft?), he isn't getting hit by the first attack every round, and is being given a weapon he can throw back.
Is there a feat/class/archetype way of increasing range on thrown weapons that might be viable in this bizarre scenario?
(Why is the fighter NAKED and not just unarmed/unarmored, weird...)
:)
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"If we present a scenario where the fighter is denied use of his class features where the Mage is given full use of his, then the fighter sucks by comparison", and this is supposed to be some sort of revelation?
The fighter is not denied his class features. He just does not have much that work without equip.
Alex1976 found one build that would be able to succeed so we see that there are some fighters who can weather this test vs. most 9th level arcane casters succeeding.The wizard with a bonded item and no spells prepared does not auto-succeed btw. He might have the wrong spells in his book so the one from bonded item might not be enough.
The big point however is not combat, so this challenge isn't even the best one.
Here are some challenges I've encountered that magical PCs could solve while martials could not:
- The party is travelling through foul weather in a terrain not suitable for tents and the need for stealth makes a big fire impossible. The constant rain is keeping the party from resting properly and the lack of sleep causes fatigue. Solution: The investigator drinks his prepared endure elements to be less affected by the weather and prepares endure elements for everyone the next day.
- The party has to climb a mountain peak. As the air gets thinner everyone has to make fort saves every hour. Eventually everyone fails a save (natural 1). Both martials were ragers, a barb and a BR so they could not do much while fatigued. Not sure if it is RAW but the GM allowed the fatigue to end when subject to an air bubble spell, resetting the fort save DC to 15 again. That way at least the two ragers can still function.
- The party have to climb some giant stairways onto the storwal plateau. Halfway up the stairs is some old guard tower manned by some archer with increased range and the ability to ignore both cover and concealment (even full cover). Without magic it would have been impossible to reach the stairs fast enough to engage before being killed. Especially as the stairs were difficult terrain. Polymorph magic and some fly spells made it possible to cut the way short and survive.
In this case a martial with deflect arrows, increased speed and high AC would have been an option, too. But few martials have that.
I do not even claim that pure caster parties are always better than mixed parties. But pure martial parties would be the weakest in many cases.
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In a magic dead area, a naked fighter should win 100% of encounters vs a naked wizard.
We can create all the theoretical situations we want, but in the end, I think everyone who has played/GMed games with full casters and mundane martials knows the truth:
Fighters can't teleport, and DPS/DPR doesn't mean much at higher levels.
Disparity deniers are living in a bubble, or are choosing to be deliberately obtuse.
Just because you have played in a campaign where martials have been effective doesn't mean the class is good.
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Ok, so the sorc or wizRd or whatever magic missiles it to death. The fighter snatched the arrow mid air and threw it back, pinning the kobold to the ceiling.
How do they get out?
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Nope. If a fighter doesn't get his weapons or armor, then the wizard doesn't get his familiar.If it is a wizard and we assume he has his class features even if he doesn't have his spells memorized he still has either his familiar (as has been stated) or his bonded item (we said naked but we said he has his class features so specific beats general) meaning he has one spell he can cast that is written in his book (it doesn't say he has to have the book on his person). A 10th or 20th level wizard should have a spell without material components that will kill the kobold or bring the wizard to safety.
Plus school powers.
I actually agree on this point, anything that you can remove without killing him should be removed for this theoretical bout.
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Nope. If a fighter doesn't get his weapons or armor, then the wizard doesn't get his familiar.I actually agree on this point, anything that you can remove without killing him should be removed for this theoretical bout.
Doesn't make much sense, though. The familiar is a class feature. Weapons aren't. A better match would be the Wizard not having access to a spell component pouch.
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Doesn't make much sense, though. The familiar is a class feature. Weapons aren't. A better match would be the Wizard not having access to a spell component pouch.Nope. If a fighter doesn't get his weapons or armor, then the wizard doesn't get his familiar.I actually agree on this point, anything that you can remove without killing him should be removed for this theoretical bout.
you can put the familiar in a adamantium box and then launch it into space.
you can put the familiar in a adamantium box and then launch it into space.Doesn't make much sense, though. The familiar is a class feature. Weapons aren't. A better match would be the Wizard not having access to a spell component pouch.Nope. If a fighter doesn't get his weapons or armor, then the wizard doesn't get his familiar.I actually agree on this point, anything that you can remove without killing him should be removed for this theoretical bout.
You can chop off your hand and do the same to it. Should we assume characters have no hands?
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Well, if you have to, just assume that the fighter specialized in unarmed combat. Now he has his weapons.
Well, if you have to, just assume that the fighter specialized in unarmed combat. Now he has his weapons.
But can also live without legs and eyes... So the character can't walk and is permanently blind.
In fact, let's assume the Figher is blind, deaf and quadriplegic.
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Well, if you have to, just assume that the fighter specialized in unarmed combat. Now he has his weapons.But can also live without legs and eyes... So the character can't walk and is permanently blind.
In fact, let's assume the Figher is blind, deaf and quadriplegic.
I'm.... I'm confused. Are we joking now or have we hyperbole'd onto the other side of the looking glass?
Hyperbole-joke, my scriptural weight-lifting friend. ^^
You can chop off your hand and do the same to it. Should we assume characters have no hands?you can put the familiar in a adamantium box and then launch it into space.Doesn't make much sense, though. The familiar is a class feature. Weapons aren't. A better match would be the Wizard not having access to a spell component pouch.Nope. If a fighter doesn't get his weapons or armor, then the wizard doesn't get his familiar.I actually agree on this point, anything that you can remove without killing him should be removed for this theoretical bout.
this kills the wizard
If the wizard was blind, deaf, and quadriplegic, could he still win the challenge?
Edit: no, because he wouldn't be able to study his spells. Forgot about that. I was thinking some sort of divination to replace sight and sound, and still/silent spells to overcome the rest.
If the wizard was blind, deaf, and quadriplegic, could he still win the challenge?
Possibly... If he can read in braille. And has the Still Spell feat. There must be some divination spell that allows him to read without needing his eyes.
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So one of my earlier questions never got answered with this challenge:
Why can't the fighter just punch the stone until a large enough chunk falls out where he can throw it at the kobold, killing it? With Power Attack, he can easily beat the hardness of the stone.
And his BAB is high enough to not have to worry about the penalties. Up thread, someone said he'd have around a -14 to hit the kobold throwing a rock. With a +20 BAB, that's still a +6 to hit an AC of 15. So that's a 60% chance to hit.
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After pinning the kobold to the ceiling with a grabbed/thrown bolt, the Fighter can then use this tool to chip handholds in the wall and climb out because of his huge STR score.
Perhaps he fashions a crude loincloth from the Kobolds hide, and takes his crossbow and bolts.
No longer naked fighter.
:D
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So one of my earlier questions never got answered with this challenge:
Why can't the fighter just punch the stone until a large enough chunk falls out where he can throw it at the kobold, killing it? With Power Attack, he can easily beat the hardness of the stone.
And his BAB is high enough to not have to worry about the penalties. Up thread, someone said he'd have around a -14 to hit the kobold throwing a rock. With a +20 BAB, that's still a +6 to hit an AC of 15. So that's a 60% chance to hit.
Plus DEX bonus.
He may be naked, but by level 20 he probably has a DEX higher than 11.