stuff
1. Soul Bind is not a HD dependent ability. RAW they keep it. And the Shinigami are ordered not to use that ability. They are merely convenient stand-ins.
2. It doesn't rely on GM discretion at all. He makes diplomacy check, if it doesn't stay that's a non-issue.
3. Deities don't have divine untyped damage. You're going to have to show me stats.
4. Sapphire? Huh? Of course it's long term. That's fine Arkalion has nothing but time.
5. I did. Divinations (ie. Contact Other Plane) cover it.
Contact other plane is still dependant on other beings knowing the answer, also, divine beings can block such divinations if desired, paricularly since you fall under "rarely" and likely as an enemy of the gods themselves, they will block such divinations until they are all allied and ready to strike you down.
Contact other plane is still dependant on other beings knowing the answer, also, divine beings can block such divinations if desired, paricularly since you fall under "rarely" and likely as an enemy of the gods themselves, they will block such divinations until they are all allied and ready to strike you down.
Then we just rely on pure numbers with Simulacrum Yamaraj Psychopomps to greater teleport around and keep an eye on a small region.
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Even for a 20th level archmage, the problem is scale. With the rate that people die, your character is in the position of trying to empty out a river with a bucket.You'd be surprised how many Simulacrums you can get. It probably isn't more than a world's population at the start, but after a century of fast time, it probably is. And then it'll be two worlds, then four, then eight, and so on.
You have to create all of them first. Then you have to organize them. Then you have to march your army on the nearest metropolis without getting obliterated. Then you have to actually find a GM that thinks this is a viable scheme for anything larger than a single village.
" A world's population at start ". Really? Okay, let's use the estimated population of our own Earth circa the mid-1600s, a rough parallel of Golarion in most cases, which is estimated at about 500 million souls. That's 83,333,334 of those simulacrums that can be argued won't even have that ability. Let's assume for this specific point that they do.
He needs 41,666,667 days to cast that many simulacrum spells, or 114,077 Earth-length years (rounding down). Since you only have 22 7th, 8th and 9th level spells prepared combined, assuming an arcane bond instead of a familiar and a very generous 45 INT score, you need to rest and replenish spell slots 3 hours in between every 22 simulacrums (11 24-hour days of constant spellcasting), adding another 473,485 days' time, i.e., adding another 1,296.5 years for a total of 115,373.5 years' time to create the minimum number of simulacra required. With not even a second's rest.
Ah, but he's got a 45 INT, he's smart enough to REST, do some hookers and blow or whatever makes him relax, unwind and otherwise at least vaguely resemble a normal-ish person. So he takes 2 days, 21 hours' R&R every time (2.875 days) he completes a batch of 22 simulacrum (14 days per 22 simulacrum, total time), resulting in another 29,815.5 years' time, bringing the grand total of time needed to create all those snow-monsters to 145,189 Earth-length years.
This hasn't touched on taking and recovering from the Strength damage. I'm assuming you have that covered already, probably from some other simulacrum squad that can spam lesser restoration. You merely need a 22 Strength (16 with a greater ring of inner fortitude) to absorb the blood money cost and of course, on average, at 2 11 HD simulacrum a day, sufficient spam-bots to slather you with a dozen lesser restorations per day.
Fortunately, your snow-monsters are all nice and obedient and don't need to drink, eat, pee, poo or sleep. They stand stock still in place, breathing, occupying a 10'x10' square (100 square feet) for almost 146 eons. 278,784 of them occupy one square mile. Your horde occupies 290 square MILES of area. To put this in some perspective, the land area of the entirety of Washington D.C. is 61.4 square miles. The land area of New York City is 304.8 square miles. And your guys are crammed in like sardines into a land area very nearly as large as the Big Apple. Your blob of snow-monsters is visible from a long, long ways away.
For these chaps to be crammed into a greater demiplane to the gills, you need to have 1 greater demiplane for every 400 of them. Total permanent castings necessary: 208,334 (leaving you one to work in, more or less). GP Cost: 4,687,150,000. More than 5,326 times your WBL at 20th. Unless your Wizard somehow has a greater ring of inner fortitude *and* at least a 41 all-day-long Strength to accompany his 45 Intelligence, you're not stuffing them into a permanent greater demiplane of inordinate size anytime soon for free.
Now that nearly 146 eons have come and gone, you have enough soul jailers to hold the planet's souls ... assuming the entire world hasn't been incinerated by a few dozen asteroids or some similarly uncaring celestial phenomena. Which is very, very probable.
"I use a timeless demiplane to make them in, dang it!" Ok, great, so that steps up the time efficiency, you only step outside for 3 days out of every 14 (so you don't go absolutely stark raving mad in the process) that were otherwise necessary, reducing the total time by 11/14ths. We'll see you in 3/14ths of the requisite time: 31,111.93 Earth-length years. That's before you've persuaded a single soul that what you offer is truly in their best interest.
In sum, you've denied the "GM's discretion" facet regarding Diplomacy, and you've completely overlooked the true scope of the logistics.
Worse, you're presuming that nothing is capable of squashing a 20th level Wizard harvesting souls into snow-monster-gems. I have one word in reply: hubris.
Just a spoiler alert, the answer to any question in this discussion is basically going to be "magic".
Stuff
You are underestimating how fast Simulacrums start to duplicate. It's literally exponentially. 100 years is me being safe in my estimate. Let's say you start with 6 (pretty easy). Tomorrow, you'll produce 12. Then 24. And it'll keep doubling. Now I admit I'm not sure how long it'll actually take that to reach such a high number but it's certainly much less then you are projecting.
And you just need a Single Heal to restore the ability damage from blood money. A Solar Simulacrum is perfect for this because they can also use their Wish SLA to create another Simulacrum and their Permanency to help out with Demiplane creation.
He's uses all the time he's not casting spells which is a significant portion of the day to unwind.
Anyone want to raise 6 to the 36500 power and see how many Simulacrum can be produced in 100 years? Keep in mind 6^10 is 60,466,176. Should work out fine.
Just a spoiler alert, the answer to any question in this discussion is basically going to be "magic".
Not just magic. RAW magic.
stuff1. Soul Bind is not a HD dependent ability. RAW they keep it. And the Shinigami are ordered not to use that ability. They are merely convenient stand-ins.
2. It doesn't rely on GM discretion at all. He makes diplomacy check, if it doesn't stay that's a non-issue.
3. Deities don't have divine untyped damage. You're going to have to show me stats.
4. Sapphire? Huh? Of course it's long term. That's fine Arkalion has nothing but time.
5. I did. Divinations (ie. Contact Other Plane) cover it.
1.) Half of a creatures' special abilities specifically covers that point. All monsters are subject to GM discretion. When you create your first one, the GM has final say on the simulacrum's stat block. 1/2 of 1/day is nothing/zero. The simulacrum's caster level of 10th is insufficient when halved to power any of the 3/day abilities, which in turn are halved to 1/day if they are kept at all.
2.) Diplomacy explicitly includes "GM discretion" in its write-up for setting any and all DCs as well as determining if the check even has a chance of success at all.
3.) Deities have whatever the GM feels they should have. They don't have stats, that's the whole point of Pathfinder deities.
5.) contact other plane covers nothing, the souls are trapped in your snow-monsters, not on another plane. Then there's the matter of making the pertinent checks with entities of uncertain ability - the only one in question in this case that has purview over all souls is a god, Pharasma on Golarion, whom shan't take kindly to your prodding her with questions about the very souls you've crammed into your own snow-monsters.
StuffYou are underestimating how fast Simulacrums start to duplicate. It's literally exponentially. 100 years is me being safe in my estimate. Let's say you start with 6 (pretty easy). Tomorrow, you'll produce 12. Then 24. And it'll keep doubling. Now I admit I'm not sure how long it'll actually take that to reach such a high number but it's certainly much less then you are projecting.
And you just need a Single Heal to restore the ability damage from blood money. A Solar Simulacrum is perfect for this because they can also use their Wish SLA to create another Simulacrum and their Permanency to help out with Demiplane creation.
He's uses all the time he's not casting spells which is a significant portion of the day to unwind.
Anyone want to raise 6 to the 36500 power and see how many Simulacrum can be produced in 100 years?
You're going the "simulacrums of myself/other powerful creatures" bit to make this scheme work? This is pure theorycraft, in the worst sense. Get your GM to post on this thread explaining why he was willing to let this fly, otherwise, I'm done.
stuff1. Soul Bind is not a HD dependent ability. RAW they keep it. And the Shinigami are ordered not to use that ability. They are merely convenient stand-ins.
2. It doesn't rely on GM discretion at all. He makes diplomacy check, if it doesn't stay that's a non-issue.
3. Deities don't have divine untyped damage. You're going to have to show me stats.
4. Sapphire? Huh? Of course it's long term. That's fine Arkalion has nothing but time.
5. I did. Divinations (ie. Contact Other Plane) cover it.
1.) Half of a creatures' special abilities specifically covers that point. All monsters are subject to GM discretion. When you create your first one, the GM has final say on the simulacrum's stat block. 1/2 of 1/day is nothing/zero. The simulacrum's caster level of 10th is insufficient when halved to power any of the 3/day abilities, which in turn are halved to 1/day if they are kept at all.
2.) Diplomacy explicitly includes "GM discretion" in its write-up for setting any and all DCs as well as determining if the check even has a chance of success at all.
3.) Deities have whatever the GM feels they should have. They don't have stats, that's the whole point of Pathfinder deities.
5.) contact other plane covers nothing, the souls are trapped in your snow-monsters, not on another plane. Then there's the matter of making the pertinent checks with entities of uncertain ability - the only one in question in this case that has purview over all souls is a god, Pharasma on Golarion, whom shan't take kindly to your prodding her with questions about the very souls you've crammed into your own snow-monsters.
1. There are rules for advancing and decreasing a monster's abilities. Only abilities that are HD dependent are lost. It is not a GM call RAW.
2. Ultimately merely a courtesy.
3. Things without Stats are powerless before things that are statted.
5. Ultimately irrelevant but I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding something here. Maybe go reread Contact Other Plane?
You're going the "simulacrums of myself/other powerful creatures" bit to make this scheme work? This is pure theorycraft, in the worst sense. Get your GM to post on this thread explaining why he was willing to let this fly, otherwise, I'm done.StuffYou are underestimating how fast Simulacrums start to duplicate. It's literally exponentially. 100 years is me being safe in my estimate. Let's say you start with 6 (pretty easy). Tomorrow, you'll produce 12. Then 24. And it'll keep doubling. Now I admit I'm not sure how long it'll actually take that to reach such a high number but it's certainly much less then you are projecting.
And you just need a Single Heal to restore the ability damage from blood money. A Solar Simulacrum is perfect for this because they can also use their Wish SLA to create another Simulacrum and their Permanency to help out with Demiplane creation.
He's uses all the time he's not casting spells which is a significant portion of the day to unwind.
Anyone want to raise 6 to the 36500 power and see how many Simulacrum can be produced in 100 years?
This is a thread on what a RAW Level 20 Caster is capable of pursuing a goal that is appropriate for a level 20 caster. More specifically the alignment of said character's actions. If that is not sufficient for you, then by all means bow out.
Just a spoiler alert, the answer to any question in this discussion is basically going to be "magic".Not just magic. RAW magic.
I'm not judging, only summarizing. :P
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This is a thread on what a RAW Level 20 Caster is capable of pursuing a goal that is appropriate for a level 20 caster. More specifically the alignment of said character's actions. If that is not sufficient for you, then by all means bow out.
These actions are Chaotic Neutral. That is because they are overturning the natural order of the universe, and doing so in such a way that is going to particularly increase the power of the Elder Gods, and hasten the time when Groetus is going to turn out the lights on everything.
This all operates with two problems
1. The GM apparently has no say, no control, and no voice in all of this.
2. It presumes that because something does not have stats, and you cannot kill it, it cannot kill you. As I recall, the players have a brief contact with a god in one of the APs and if they even give her the slightest lip they get blinded, deafened, and dropkicked back to their home plane. I assume that is the writers being polite and restrained.
The actions may have some neutral in them, but there is some chaos and evil as well.
stuff1. Soul Bind is not a HD dependent ability. RAW they keep it. And the Shinigami are ordered not to use that ability. They are merely convenient stand-ins.
2. It doesn't rely on GM discretion at all. He makes diplomacy check, if it doesn't stay that's a non-issue.
3. Deities don't have divine untyped damage. You're going to have to show me stats.
4. Sapphire? Huh? Of course it's long term. That's fine Arkalion has nothing but time.
5. I did. Divinations (ie. Contact Other Plane) cover it.
Gods don't have stats for just this reason...so a GM can do whatever whatever they want with a god and not having to worry about the rules.
Which means that Pharasma could simply insta-death you as well as every clone/simulacrum/whatever, or any one of infinite options to prevent you from pulling this stuff off.
And its not like she would be getting flack from this from other gods. What you propose would pretty much guarantee every being from the most horrible demon lord to the most benevolent lawful good deity would not intervene.
Things without Stats are powerless before things that are stattedSo the gods themselves are utterly powerless?? They can do nothing against the might that is Arkalion??
If they don't have stats? Yes. Because if they don't have Stats, Arkalion uses his "All Dimensions, All Deity, Instant Death, 100% Accuracy, 100% Success" spell. What that? That spell isn't in his stats? Exactly.
stuff1. Soul Bind is not a HD dependent ability. RAW they keep it. And the Shinigami are ordered not to use that ability. They are merely convenient stand-ins.
2. It doesn't rely on GM discretion at all. He makes diplomacy check, if it doesn't stay that's a non-issue.
3. Deities don't have divine untyped damage. You're going to have to show me stats.
4. Sapphire? Huh? Of course it's long term. That's fine Arkalion has nothing but time.
5. I did. Divinations (ie. Contact Other Plane) cover it.
Gods don't have stats for just this reason...so a GM can do whatever whatever they want with a god and not having to worry about the rules.
Which means that Pharasma could simply insta-death you as well as every clone/simulacrum/whatever, or any one of infinite options to prevent you from pulling this stuff off.
And its not like she would be getting flack from this from other gods. What you propose would pretty much guarantee every being from the most horrible demon lord to the most benevolent lawful good deity would not intervene.
See above.
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Arkalion might be amazingly self-delusional, but being amazingly self-delusional does not stop him from being evil.
Also, you've apparently never read the Great Beyond, which goes into how the Outer Planes (and afterlife there) actually works.
Neutral souls are given the option of reincarnating at any time, so Arkalion's just using coercion to force people to take an option that the majority of mortals (who are normally neutral) get offered in the normal course of their afterlife.
Now, if you're freaking out over the River of Souls article, then I'm guessing you find the concept of reincarnation itself pretty horrifying (because that's what it actually boils down to - over time, souls themselves reincarnate).
Also, Arkalion tries to condemn people to eternal imprisonment just to prevent things that could happen in a million years.
Arkalion is a full-bore psychopath =P
Things without Stats are powerless before things that are stattedSo the gods themselves are utterly powerless?? They can do nothing against the might that is Arkalion??If they don't have stats? Yes. Because if they don't have Stats, Arkalion uses his "All Dimensions, All Deity, Instant Death, 100% Accuracy, 100% Success" spell. What that? That spell isn't in his stats? Exactly.
See above.stuff1. Soul Bind is not a HD dependent ability. RAW they keep it. And the Shinigami are ordered not to use that ability. They are merely convenient stand-ins.
2. It doesn't rely on GM discretion at all. He makes diplomacy check, if it doesn't stay that's a non-issue.
3. Deities don't have divine untyped damage. You're going to have to show me stats.
4. Sapphire? Huh? Of course it's long term. That's fine Arkalion has nothing but time.
5. I did. Divinations (ie. Contact Other Plane) cover it.
Gods don't have stats for just this reason...so a GM can do whatever whatever they want with a god and not having to worry about the rules.
Which means that Pharasma could simply insta-death you as well as every clone/simulacrum/whatever, or any one of infinite options to prevent you from pulling this stuff off.
And its not like she would be getting flack from this from other gods. What you propose would pretty much guarantee every being from the most horrible demon lord to the most benevolent lawful good deity would not intervene.
You are really arguing that since Gods don't have stats, Gods can't do anything.
Anzyr, that may actually be the stupidest thing you've ever posted, and you should be embarrassed.
Edit: You do know what plot devices are, right?
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So the gods themselves are utterly powerless?? They can do nothing against the might that is Arkalion??If they don't have stats? Yes. Because if they don't have Stats, Arkalion uses his "All Dimensions, All Deity, Instant Death, 100% Accuracy, 100% Success" spell. What that? That spell isn't in his stats? Exactly.
Ah, so then you have a story which the GM agreed to that explains how you got that power, yes?
Narrative is a co-equal part of the game, and it is not without rules, it is just that those rules are called 'conventions'. Changing those conventions requires negotiation and consensus, not player or GM fiat, and are constrained by story elements and precedence rather than rules elements. The brilliance of RPGs is that they have so many different systems interacting simultaneously, and this is one of them. As is often the case in life, because it is less quantifiable and measurable, it is often ignored during analysis, but that makes it no less real or important.
In other words:
Congratulations, you've entered the metagame! You'll find it takes a completely different skillset than the game you've been playing thus far. Have fun!
Arkalion might be amazingly self-delusional, but being amazingly self-delusional does not stop him from being evil.
Also, you've apparently never read the Great Beyond, which goes into how the Outer Planes (and afterlife there) actually works.
Neutral souls are given the option of reincarnating at any time, so Arkalion's just using coercion to force people to take an option that the majority of mortals (who are normally neutral) get offered in the normal course of their afterlife.
Now, if you're freaking out over the River of Souls article, then I'm guessing you find the concept of reincarnation itself pretty horrifying (because that's what it actually boils down to - over time, souls themselves reincarnate).
Also, Arkalion tries to condemn people to eternal imprisonment just to prevent things that could happen in a million years.
Arkalion is a full-bore psychopath =P
Here's what I find deeply amusing about all this. Arkalion and Pharasma are both doing essentially the same thing. Except you only see what Arkalaion is doing as Evil and not the Neutral that Pharasma is.
So the gods themselves are utterly powerless?? They can do nothing against the might that is Arkalion??If they don't have stats? Yes. Because if they don't have Stats, Arkalion uses his "All Dimensions, All Deity, Instant Death, 100% Accuracy, 100% Success" spell. What that? That spell isn't in his stats? Exactly.
Ah, so then you have a story which the GM agreed to that explains how you got that power, yes?
Narrative is a co-equal part of the game, and it is not without rules, it is just that those rules are called 'conventions'. Changing those conventions requires negotiation and consensus, not player or GM fiat, and are constrained by story elements and precedence rather than rules elements. The brilliance of RPGs is that they have so many different systems interacting simultaneously, and this is one of them. As is often the case in life, because it is less quantifiable and measurable, it is often ignored during analysis, but that makes it no less real or important.
In other words:
Congratulations, you've entered the metagame! You'll find it takes a completely different skillset than the game you've been playing thus far. Have fun!
Gods don't have stats therefore they have no ability to do anything in a RAW game of Pathfinder, that is correct. They have no narrative control and are only a metagame construct. Arkalion is an actual character with real narrative power that does not rely on a metagame construct.
So the gods themselves are utterly powerless?? They can do nothing against the might that is Arkalion??If they don't have stats? Yes. Because if they don't have Stats, Arkalion uses his "All Dimensions, All Deity, Instant Death, 100% Accuracy, 100% Success" spell. What that? That spell isn't in his stats? Exactly.
Ah, so then you have a story which the GM agreed to that explains how you got that power, yes?
Narrative is a co-equal part of the game, and it is not without rules, it is just that those rules are called 'conventions'. Changing those conventions requires negotiation and consensus, not player or GM fiat, and are constrained by story elements and precedence rather than rules elements. The brilliance of RPGs is that they have so many different systems interacting simultaneously, and this is one of them. As is often the case in life, because it is less quantifiable and measurable, it is often ignored during analysis, but that makes it no less real or important.
In other words:
Congratulations, you've entered the metagame! You'll find it takes a completely different skillset than the game you've been playing thus far. Have fun!
Yeah...at this point we are twisting RAW into knots that probably don't actually represent Pathfinder play for the vast majority of players or for any of the developers and designers.
So I mean...congrats on doing that?
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Gods don't have stats therefore they have no ability to do anything in a RAW game of Pathfinder, that is correct. They have no narrative control and are only a metagame construct. Arkalion is an actual character with real narrative power that does not rely on a metagame construct.
You have it backwards.
Gods don't have stats therefore they cannot be prevented from doing anything in a RAW game of Pathfinder.
As metagame constructs, they are the mechanisms of narrative control.
This is what I'm talking about above -- you are analyzing the metagame using an in-game frame. The exercise is interesting but doomed to failure.
It's like trying to comprehend a three-dimensional object with a two-dimensional sensibility. You can build a RAW fence around the perimeter of a god if you like -- but that won't actually constrain it because it can still move up.
Gods don't have stats therefore they have no ability to do anything in a RAW game of Pathfinder, that is correct. They have no narrative control and are only a metagame construct. Arkalion is an actual character with real narrative power that does not rely on a metagame construct.You have it backwards.
Gods don't have stats therefore they cannot be prevented from doing anything in a RAW game of Pathfinder.
As metagame constructs, they are the mechanisms of narrative control.
This is what I'm talking about above -- you are analyzing the metagame using an in-game frame. The exercise is interesting but doomed to failure.
It's like trying to comprehend a three-dimensional object with a two-dimensional sensibility. You can build a RAW fence around the perimeter of a god if you like -- but that won't actually constrain it because it can still move up.
Sure, just show me the stats that let it move. Or acknowledge you aren't talking about has absolutely no basis in the rules.
Arkalion is actually NOT an actual character. He is an agglomeration of rules built at 20th level with zero GM involvement. You've essentially created a Pathfinder quark.
Anzyr, can you explain better how you can exponentially increase the number of Shinigami you have?
My best guess is that you're making Simulacra (Simulacrums?) that can make more Simulacra that can make more Simulacra and so fourth. Simce Simulacrums of Arkalion wouldn't work for this purpose, (Being as they'd be 10th level and thus unable to cast the spell) I'm assuming you're duplicating a creature that can make Simulacra as a natural ability. Since Shinigami don't have that power, what creature are you duplicating here? Not accusing, just curious.
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Arkalion is actually NOT an actual character. He is an agglomeration of rules built at 20th level with zero GM involvement. You've essentially created a Pathfinder quark.
Oh! Now I get it. My mistake.
My apologies, Anzyr. So you don't have a game, you have a treatment. I'll be interested in seeing the module (or novel, if that's the direction you want to go) when it's finished.
Here's what I find deeply amusing about all this. Arkalion and Pharasma are both doing essentially the same thing. Except you only see what Arkalaion is doing as Evil and not the Neutral that Pharasma is.Arkalion might be amazingly self-delusional, but being amazingly self-delusional does not stop him from being evil.
Also, you've apparently never read the Great Beyond, which goes into how the Outer Planes (and afterlife there) actually works.
Neutral souls are given the option of reincarnating at any time, so Arkalion's just using coercion to force people to take an option that the majority of mortals (who are normally neutral) get offered in the normal course of their afterlife.
Now, if you're freaking out over the River of Souls article, then I'm guessing you find the concept of reincarnation itself pretty horrifying (because that's what it actually boils down to - over time, souls themselves reincarnate).
Also, Arkalion tries to condemn people to eternal imprisonment just to prevent things that could happen in a million years.
Arkalion is a full-bore psychopath =P
Because mandatory reincarnation or imprisonment is very different from voluntary reincarnation or eternal peace (which is the actual fate of neutral souls who don't choose to become psychopomps).
I'm deeply amused that you're unable or unwilling to grasp the difference.
Or, which is far more likely, you DO grasp the difference and you're just trolling again =P
Though I suppose eternal rest is a misnomer; it's more like
100 million years+ of peace as a petitioner
Achieve union with the Boneyard
Spend 1 billion+ years as part of its conglomerate consciousness (i.e., attain nirvana)
Break apart from the Boneyard
Return to the positive energy plane
Be reborn on the prime material plane
Start over again.
(And I think I'm lowballing the time scale.)
Haven't read all the posts, but the defining feature of good vs. evil is the treatment of "innocents". If you harm innocents (intentionally and/or regularly), then you are evil. If you protect innocents (as much as you are able), then you are good. Neutral help those they care about and harm those that they hate, but generally don't step in one way or another to aid or harm random innocents.
So the question you have to ask is, are innocents being harmed by the deliberate actions of the being? If the answer is yes, they are evil. If the answer is no they are being helped, then the answer is they are good. If the answer is innocents are not being dealt with at all, then they are neutral. And remember, the answer to this is not what the being believes the answer is but what the universal forces know the answer to be.
I'm just going to leave a list of demon lords and an arch-devil here.
Amusing thought - Arkalion's best bet to actually carry out his scheme without direct divine interference would be to secure himself a divine sponsor.
Easiest way would be through paying such sponsor with the harvested souls of all the folks who refused to submit to Arkalion's reign of terror.
He's already convinced himself that eternal imprisonment "is for their own good," it won't be that far a jump to conclude that trading them off for daring to interfere with/defy his plans is "what they deserve."
Urgathoa's the most likely candidate - she'd cheerfully be on board for a "screw the afterlife" plan. She actually prefers her followers to become undead instead of petitioners. Urgathoa rewards her followers with spontaneous undeath. She'd enjoy sitting back and watching a world where anything goes because death has no consequence (as long as you submit to the whims of the evil overlord, anyways).
Asmodeus and Lamashtu would also be good bets, but they'd have additional strings attached - probably along the lines of getting to shape the cultures of the various planets condemned to endless forced reincarnation.
But yeah, that would shield Arkalion from having a sufficiently annoyed god break all of his simulacrums and soulgems at once.
(He'd still have to worry about opposing mortal/not-full-god entities waging war on him utilizing the exact same rules exploits as him, though. Using rules abuse to get an infinite simulacrum army becomes less helpful when you're suddenly facing multiple opponents with their own infinite simulacrum armies. Two infinite armies are better than one =P
And so he might wind up leaning more and more on his sponsor...)
Found the stat block. He doesn't have mind blank up and running, he's dog food thanks to making such liberal use of magic jar without said stat block stipulating any form of protection for the original body.
A hit squad of CR 20 will easily track the original body down via discern location and greater teleport, strip it completely naked, bind it into utter helpless, slap on a set of dimensional shackles, blind and mute the body via blindfold and gag, and lock on a pair of locking gauntlets (holding onto a club in each hand). Once that's done, they fabricate a guillotine, smash the receptacle and the readied action to drop the blade takes his head off at the very moment the original soul returns.
They rinse/lather/repeat to track down any and all clones, one by one. Since your gear is gone, that character is in for a rough time.
Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
I'll be waiting for those gods RAW stat blocks.
WBL does not work like that. It is not a hard cap on GP your character can carry or equip. That being said his gear is all purchased via WBL as part of character creation (where it is a rule) using the Ultimate Campaign Rules that grant an additional 25% WBL per Crafting Feat to a max of 50%, which Arkalion has thanks to Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item.
His Diplomacy is +32. With Moment of Prescience that comes to +57. If he decides to use Paragon Surge to acquire Additional Traits to gain Clever Wordplay and Extremely Fashionable, then his bonus is +72. And before you ask all his traits are different types.
Finally, I haven't ignored any GM discretionary element that actually is discretionary. Hence, my alternate plan should the GM say Contact Other Plane fails.
Found the stat block. He doesn't have mind blank up and running, he's dog food thanks to making such liberal use of magic jar without said stat block stipulating any form of protection for the original body.
A hit squad of CR 20 will easily track the original body down via discern location and greater teleport, strip it completely naked, bind it into utter helpless, slap on a set of dimensional shackles, blind and mute the body via blindfold and gag, and lock on a pair of locking gauntlets (holding onto a club in each hand). Once that's done, they fabricate a guillotine, smash the receptacle and the readied action to drop the blade takes his head off at the very moment the original soul returns.
They rinse/lather/repeat to track down any and all clones, one by one. Since your gear is gone, that character is in for a rough time.
The original body needs no protection since it is always near his borrowed body. While he is within his Demiplane he does not require Mind Blank to avoid scrying due to Permanent Mage's Private Sanctums set-up through out it. When he leaves, he has Mind Blank cast, and his body will be in the possession of a simulacrum that has Mind Blank on which will extend that protection to the body. Also the original body very rarely has the gear on it. The first stat block is merely in the event he is in that form which is rarely.
Amusing thought - Arkalion's best bet to actually carry out his scheme without direct divine interference would be to secure himself a divine sponsor.
Easiest way would be through paying such sponsor with the harvested souls of all the folks who refused to submit to Arkalion's reign of terror.
He's already convinced himself that eternal imprisonment "is for their own good," it won't be that far a jump to conclude that trading them off for daring to interfere with/defy his plans is "what they deserve."
It actually is for their own good. And he would never trade them off since the Soul Binds are for their protection, not any sort of malevolence on his part. So most of the rest of your post won't work as it is in direct contradiction to his goals.
I'm just going to leave a list of demon lords and an arch-devil here.
Exactly. Those guys are chumps compared to Arkalion.
Anzyr, can you explain better how you can exponentially increase the number of Shinigami you have?
My best guess is that you're making Simulacra (Simulacrums?) that can make more Simulacra that can make more Simulacra and so fourth. Simce Simulacrums of Arkalion wouldn't work for this purpose, (Being as they'd be 10th level and thus unable to cast the spell) I'm assuming you're duplicating a creature that can make Simulacra as a natural ability. Since Shinigami don't have that power, what creature are you duplicating here? Not accusing, just curious.
Solars. They are ideal since they get Wish 1/day and have Permanency 3/day. They use Wish to duplicate Simulacrum to create more Solars. They increase exponentially until there is enough, then they produce Yamaraj Shinigami Simulacrums.
Haven't read all the posts, but the defining feature of good vs. evil is the treatment of "innocents". If you harm innocents (intentionally and/or regularly), then you are evil. If you protect innocents (as much as you are able), then you are good. Neutral help those they care about and harm those that they hate, but generally don't step in one way or another to aid or harm random innocents.
So the question you have to ask is, are innocents being harmed by the deliberate actions of the being? If the answer is yes, they are evil. If the answer is no they are being helped, then the answer is they are good. If the answer is innocents are not being dealt with at all, then they are neutral. And remember, the answer to this is not what the being believes the answer is but what the universal forces know the answer to be.
Well in that case his actions are good, since they do in fact protect people from the afterlife, which the universal forces know to be good. I'd argue it's only very minor Good though and really mostly Neutral.
What he believes is their own good may or may not be what the people believe. He is removing their choice in the matter: they may actually want to go to Heaven, or Hell, or whatever they believe takes place when they die. Though Arkalion doesn't like this happening, this doesn't invalidate their choices.
Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
I'll be waiting for those gods RAW stat blocks.
WBL does not work like that. It is not a hard cap on GP your character can carry or equip. That being said his gear is all purchased via WBL as part of character creation (where it is a rule) using the Ultimate Campaign Rules that grant an additional 25% WBL per Crafting Feat to a max of 50%, which Arkalion has thanks to Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item.
His Diplomacy is +32. With Moment of Prescience that comes to +57. If he decides to use Paragon Surge to acquire Additional Traits to gain Clever Wordplay and Extremely Fashionable, then his bonus is +72. And before you ask all his traits are different types.
Finally, I haven't ignored any GM discretionary element that actually is discretionary. Hence, my alternate plan should the GM say Contact Other Plane fails.
You'll be waiting a long time on the gods stat blocks, as you know. The closest we've seen to god powers appears in one of the APs. Well, and the various books where we see just what the gods can do when they set their mind to it. If they can imprison one of their own, I'm sure they can do the same for a mortal.
And yes, this character was built without GM discretion as far as I can find from posting history. No one has "signed off" on all of this; it is a fanfic with some stats thrown together.
actualy, RAW, in the core rule book page 396, Gm's word is law, if he says that the gods dont need stats to do whatever they want they dont, and in general, most gms will not subscribe to the gods not having stats so thay cant do anything RAW. RAW, the GM can.
I see two distinct elements to this thread: the philosophical question pertaining to Arkalion's actions and the practical one. Each of these questions has a different answer, but regardless, I feel that a discussion of either will come to the same conclusion. As was mentioned earlier, we're dealing with more than just RAW rules and mechanics. What Anzyr is proposing has implications that stretch into the metagame, and part of the reason this discussion has become so convoluted is because this character really needs to utilize narrative to function effectively.
I'm not saying that Arkalion CANNOT do all of this according to RAW, but that he SHOULDN'T, at least not while within the confines of being a PC. On the other hand, I believe that he would be an excellent NPC. Reading all of this from a DM's perspective, I'm inspired by the creativity and complexity of Arkalion's scheming. He has the making of a brilliant villain, regardless of whether or not you think his actions are evil. I honestly think that we can have a more meaningful discussion if we consider this character from the perspective of players in a world where his scheme has come to fruition. Forget all the minutia of how many simulacra he would need, forget the fact that his stats would need to be absurdly high. Pretend instead that his actions are creating a widespread cosmological conflict, and you are charged with protecting him from the divine retribution he has earned. Or that you are beseeched by the now-weakened pantheon to find him and end his plans. All-in-all, I think the strength of this discussion shows just how powerful of a plot device Arkalion himself can be, and I'd be interested to see where the discussion went if interpreted him that way.
Even if that discussion isn't had, I think more should be said as to the philosophical side. I feel like that's more what this thread was intended for.
Removing choice from people is a point where "lawful*" itself has become evil.
Ever hear the phrase "The road to hell is paved with good intentions?" Ark may be acting on a belief that he doing everyone a favor, but that has bearing on whether he is correct or deluded, nor on the fact that the result is still evil.
*Depends on definition used for lawful, which doesn't have a decent definition.
Removing choice from people is a point where "lawful*" itself has become evil.
I disagree with this sentiment strongly. Everything in society, in our very lives is based on varying degrees of choice that we lose. It's in the nature of being alive that our choices are taken away. Is a parent evil for telling his child he can only have one cookie? He must be, he's taken away his child's choice of having more than one cookie. Is a government evil for telling you you can't murder someone? It must be, according to your definition.
In fact, based on your definition, the only purely GOOD institution is anarchy, which is not only absurd, but also an indication that the practice of removing an individual's choice is more closely related to the conflict between Law and Chaos than the one between Good and Evil.
While I'm willing to admit that Arkalion might have an extreme case of hubris, and might be evil for it, his actions in and of themselves are not evil. In order for his limitation of choice to be evil, he must be using his power to the detriment of others. This leaves us with the question: are Arkalion's actions bringing people undue suffering, or are they--as Anzyr claims--ultimately bringing about the greater good?
You have stats because you're a mortal creature and are limited by those stats. Gods do not have stats because those stats would limit them and they are not limited mortal creatures.If they don't have stats? Yes. Because if they don't have Stats, Arkalion uses his "All Dimensions, All Deity, Instant Death, 100% Accuracy, 100% Success" spell. What that? That spell isn't in his stats? Exactly.Things without Stats are powerless before things that are stattedSo the gods themselves are utterly powerless?? They can do nothing against the might that is Arkalion??
Yet I've had people on the board try to argue that Gods don't have free will. Apparently not all agree about which are limited.
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Alicorn, sorry for missing your note about the definition of lawful. For me, law itself is the loss of freedom. But to be perfectly honest, law doesn't remove choice, it just removes your ability to make some choices without punitive consequences. Under our law, you still have the choice to steal from people, there will just be more consequences than there would have been without the presence of the law. In a way, Arkalion's actions aren't even this extreme, because he's not presuming to punish anyone for "disobeying" him.