I always have this issue.
As a level 3 cleric, do I know this stuff? Is it know to everyone, regardless of Knowledge or just adventurers?
It bugs me that starting as a level 3 character I know about Silver, Cold Iron weapons that are needed for certain enemies.
I usually consider my character doesn't know this stuff unless he had faced someone who had this resistance.
How do you guys handle it? Should I make a roll or something, or just start with these weapons?
i mostly figure that knowledge of special materials is something you just know if yyou are trained for combat, what CREATURES it works on you might not know, but you know it is needed for SOME KIND of creature, and it makes even more sense if you are a member of a group like the Pathfinder Society or some other combat/adventuring-based organization
I agree with Imbicatus. It is reasonable to say that someone along the way taught you that cold iron and silver weapons were useful against different types of creatures. Of course, you probably don't recognize any of the creatures yourself but you do remember the lesson.
The appropriate knowledge check lets you know when to bring out the cold iron or silver against the appropriate enemies.
So it is reasonable to think as a level 3 Cleric I would have a Silver and Cold Iron weapon, right?
Well, that is good enough for me! I usually have this debate in my head and takes time to figure out if it's metagaming or not!
As a cleric especially, learning the weaknesses of evil creatures should be right in your wheelhouse.
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Knowing you need to do something is not the same as knowing when or how to do something. I would say cold iron and silver are common enough that most everyone has some knowledge as to their use.
"What is a silver dagger for?"
"Oh, that's for when the monster can't be harmed by common blades."
"I see, what monsters?"
"I don't know."
Think about the scene in Dusk Till Dawn after they have killed the first group of vampires. Everyone starts listing off stuff they know about vampires. They cover most everything but have no idea if any of it is true or not.
I think it is certainly reasonable that everyone knows that some monsters are resistant to anything not cold iron, some are resistant to anything not silver, and stuff like that. Knowing the general weaknesses of a class of creatures (often cold iron for fae, often silver for undead etc.) would probably be a DC 10 knowledge and thus available to most characters. Knowing what a specific creature is and its weaknesses is of course a knowledge check.
DC 10 might be a tiny bit too easy for my tastes... but in general, I agree.
That wouldn't be knowing that something is a fae, or anything like that, just the general knowledge that fae are often vulnerable to cold iron.
It seems to me to be something that an untrained person might well know, hence DC 10 knowledge check.
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DC 10 might be a tiny bit too easy for my tastes... but in general, I agree.That wouldn't be knowing that something is a fae, or anything like that, just the general knowledge that fae are often vulnerable to cold iron.
It seems to me to be something that an untrained person might well know, hence DC 10 knowledge check.
I would raise it for certain types, possibly depending on geography.
So the average Ulfen wouldn't know devils' common weakness, but a Chelaxian would... and for fey, vice versa. By contrast, pretty much nobody would have common knowledge of qlippoth weaknesses.
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I would raise it for certain types, possibly depending on geography.
So the average Ulfen wouldn't know devils' common weakness, but a Chelaxian would... and for fey, vice versa. By contrast, pretty much nobody would have common knowledge of qlippoth weaknesses.
I don't disagree at all with the concept there. I would categorize it though as very broad categories (types) would be commonly known, such as fae and undead, but subtypes (Demons, Devils, qlippoth) etc. wold be a different thing and would definitely require a more traditional trained knowledge roll.
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I agree with what Imbicatus and Claxon said. In addition, the blacksmith that made them would know what they're good for. He would know what (sub)types special metals are good against, and you would learn that information when you bought it. Now he might not know (most probably wouldn't) what specific creatures belong to those (sub)types, but he'd definitely know the metal's usefulness.
The description for the material gives as much information and anyone skilled enough to be working with those materials would know that.
Identify a monster's abilities and weaknesses Varies 10 + monster's CR
Well, unless you have the knowledge, you shouldn't know it. Being a Cleric and all, I could know about undead only!
If you asked someone in the real world how to kill a werewolf most people would answer with you need a silver weapon. Likewise most people would be able to tell you that to kill a vampire you need to put a wooden stake in its heart. If most people in the real world know that you need special substances to affect creatures that do not actually exist, it would be logical to assume that in a world where they do exist people would also be aware of this.
When you identify a monster using the appropriate knowledge it is more a matter of recognition of the monster than anything else. Demon, devil, daemon and most other outsides have distinctly different abilities, but often look similar. Without memorizing characteristics how do you tell if the monster you are fighting is demon, devil, or maybe even some form of undead or even an evil fey. So when you make your knowledge planes roll you realize the evil winged woman is a succubus instead of Erinyes or some monstrous humanoid. At that point you realize you need cold iron or a good weapon to damage her.
You'll know the special materials exist right from the get-go. There is nothing particularly rare or exceptional about them. The fact that they exist and that there are creatures out there that are impervious to normal weapons is going to be common knowledge. It's rare my characters don't have a silver and a cold iron option even at level 1. Whether I know when to use them is a whole 'nother question. Even if the aforementioned smith tells you silver is good against devils, you won't necessarily know whether the fire-bedecked beastie in front of you is a devil, a demon or something else entirely.
The obvious answer - ask your GM. If lycanthropes are common in the game world, its likely that most people know that silver is needed to hurt them (or works better, anyhow.)
If lycanthropes are very uncommon, then its not likely that it is known. Same goes with other monsters that have DR or other special immunities.
You'll know the special materials exist right from the get-go. There is nothing particularly rare or exceptional about them. The fact that they exist and that there are creatures out there that are impervious to normal weapons is going to be common knowledge. It's rare my characters don't have a silver and a cold iron option even at level 1. Whether I know when to use them is a whole 'nother question. Even if the aforementioned smith tells you silver is good against devils, you won't necessarily know whether the fire-bedecked beastie in front of you is a devil, a demon or something else entirely.
I know right away, ok. Is there any ingame rule about noticing when your weapons don't work?
We can notice fast heal, or regeneration because wounds close themselves, what about DR? How do we notice it?
Is it normal for everyone to think that a sword is stupid to use against Skeletons?
Is it normal for everyone to think that a sword is stupid to use against Skeletons?
As a DC 10 knowledge check, everyone can roll and take ten. Anyone that doesn't have a int penalty automatically knows. Same goes for DR's from creatures with less than 1 CR (like some fey).
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The rules say:
"Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature's tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won't work."
If you asked someone in the real world how to kill a werewolf most people would answer with you need a silver weapon. Likewise most people would be able to tell you that to kill a vampire you need to put a wooden stake in its heart. If most people in the real world know that you need special substances to affect creatures that do not actually exist, it would be logical to assume that in a world where they do exist people would also be aware of this.
When you identify a monster using the appropriate knowledge it is more a matter of recognition of the monster than anything else. Demon, devil, daemon and most other outsides have distinctly different abilities, but often look similar. Without memorizing characteristics how do you tell if the monster you are fighting is demon, devil, or maybe even some form of undead or even an evil fey. So when you make your knowledge planes roll you realize the evil winged woman is a succubus instead of Erinyes or some monstrous humanoid. At that point you realize you need cold iron or a good weapon to damage her.
This is mainly because it's all over the mass media. I don't think such entertainments are that widely spread in the game worlds we usually do this in.
That said, I agree with the idea of a blacksmith knowing that properties exist; it's literally part of the job. Thus, Samantha the barbarian blacksmith knows of darkwood and mithril. But given she's neglected her Knowledge (fey) skill, she won't know the critters that would be affected the most.
Otherwise, a character should be able to learn easily enough in certain areas, as mentioned by the poster who mentioned the Pathfinder Society training programme. Others might just end up coming across it during gameplay ('By the Dawnflower, what the hell did that dagger do to that steel door?!'). And merchants will of course be more than happy to tell you the wonders of that darkwood adamantine whip ...
I am going to go with information given by the Wrath of the Righteous player's guide:
After this experience, Yaniel began work on her texts explaining demonkind and the best ways to combat them. These manuscripts are still used by those who fight demons. An excerpt of her first and most basic treatise on demon slaying follow:
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"Most demons, especially more powerful ones, have the ability to shrug off wounds earned through combat, though weapons forged from cold iron and those that are imbued with the power of good can bypass this fiendish protection"
This is presented as an in setting text read by pretty much EVERYONE going to Mendev. So in that circumstance, I would assume it is common knowledge.
While the exact knowledge of the strength and weaknesses of demons might vary on their penetration into common knowledge, the idea that 'some' creatures are resistant to normal attacks seems fairly basic. Enough that you might spend a couple extra gold on a cold iron dagger.
This seems particularly relevant since summoning is very much a 'thing', and any level 5 wizard and many crazy clerics can just up and summon demons with summon monster III. Before that, wizards and clerics of Asmodeus can summon low level devils on SMII (who need silver to counter).
So even if such creatures are not wandering around every day, you can easily find enemies that use these creatures for their DR to have them serve as meatshields.
So overall, it comes up enough that you at least know that you might want to splurge on some cheap special material items.
I generally figure most characters know to use silver on devils and cold iron on demons. It is telling what is a demon or devil that is the rub.
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While the game worlds do not have mass media they do have something else. In the game world creatures that can only be harmed by specific substances are not myths and stories they are hard cold facts. And while the game worlds don’t have T.V. and radio they do have bards, story tellers and other methods of communication. How much knowledge a particular character has is going to depend on where they came from and how much education they have. If you come from an area known for a particular type of creature then you will probably know something about them.
This does not mean that you will automatically know what affects a particular creature. The basic fact that some creatures are resistant or immune to normal weapons is basic knowledge. If your character for example comes from Mendev you probably know that to affect a demon you need cold iron. If your character comes from Cheliax you probably know that to affect devils require silver weapons. But without knowledge planes you are going to have a hard time figuring out if the creature you are fighting is a demon or a devil, or even some other type of creature. In fact without the knowledge skill you may tend to assume that anything you encounter is the type of creature you are most familiar with.
While the game worlds do not have mass media they do have something else. In the game world creatures that can only be harmed by specific substances are not myths and stories they are hard cold facts. And while the game worlds don’t have T.V. and radio they do have bards, story tellers and other methods of communication. How much knowledge a particular character has is going to depend on where they came from and how much education they have. If you come from an area known for a particular type of creature then you will probably know something about them.
This does not mean that you will automatically know what affects a particular creature. The basic fact that some creatures are resistant or immune to normal weapons is basic knowledge. If your character for example comes from Mendev you probably know that to affect a demon you need cold iron. If your character comes from Cheliax you probably know that to affect devils require silver weapons. But without knowledge planes you are going to have a hard time figuring out if the creature you are fighting is a demon or a devil, or even some other type of creature. In fact without the knowledge skill you may tend to assume that anything you encounter is the type of creature you are most familiar with.
That makes sense. Fine details are difficult, but the general idea, especially if it's known pretty well in your area. (Although I don't imagine Cheliax approved bards singing too often about how to kill devils, for some reason :)
I would raise it for certain types, possibly depending on geography.
So the average Ulfen wouldn't know devils' common weakness, but a Chelaxian would... and for fey, vice versa. By contrast, pretty much nobody would have common knowledge of qlippoth weaknesses.
This is a GM call, but is actually in the fine print of the Knowledge skill rules:
In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster's CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster's CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster's CR, or more.
Obviously it is up the the GM as to when to apply these modifiers, but I don't think you should be stingy.
Even though Lycanthropes and Fae don't actually exist, it was common folklore long before mass media existed that they were vulnerable to silver and cold iron respectively (though cold iron had a different meaning). Thus it is reasonable to assume that ordinary folk will have some recipes for protecting themselves from the monsters that populate the area.
I would raise it for certain types, possibly depending on geography.
So the average Ulfen wouldn't know devils' common weakness, but a Chelaxian would... and for fey, vice versa. By contrast, pretty much nobody would have common knowledge of qlippoth weaknesses.
This is a GM call, but is actually in the fine print of the Knowledge skill rules:
In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster's CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster's CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster's CR, or more.Obviously it is up the the GM as to when to apply these modifiers, but I don't think you should be stingy.
Even though Lycanthropes and Fae don't actually exist, it was common folklore long before mass media existed that they were vulnerable to silver and cold iron respectively (though cold iron had a different meaning). Thus it is reasonable to assume that ordinary folk will have some recipes for protecting themselves from the monsters that populate the area.
No but in Cheliax silver weapons may be illegal or at least regulated. The point is that areas that creature types are more common will know more about them. Also in areas where the creature type is common weapons of the type that affect them will also tend to be more common.
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I generally figure most characters know to use silver on devils and cold iron on demons. It is telling what is a demon or devil that is the rub.
That.
I figure it'd be something like this if you don't hit your knowledge check - Silver/Cold Iron - OOTS
You'll know the special materials exist right from the get-go. There is nothing particularly rare or exceptional about them. The fact that they exist and that there are creatures out there that are impervious to normal weapons is going to be common knowledge. It's rare my characters don't have a silver and a cold iron option even at level 1. Whether I know when to use them is a whole 'nother question. Even if the aforementioned smith tells you silver is good against devils, you won't necessarily know whether the fire-bedecked beastie in front of you is a devil, a demon or something else entirely.I know right away, ok. Is there any ingame rule about noticing when your weapons don't work?
We can notice fast heal, or regeneration because wounds close themselves, what about DR? How do we notice it?
Is it normal for everyone to think that a sword is stupid to use against Skeletons?
I always tell my players when their weapons don't have full effect. And when an enemy's wound heal in combat. This usually prompts knowledge checks.
Why would it prompt them? Knowledge checks are passive as soon as they see whatever creature it may be.
I always tell my players when their weapons don't have full effect. And when an enemy's wound heal in combat. This usually prompts knowledge checks.
Because my players don't automatically ask. And I like to hear 'what do I know about...' before giving advice. This can be done before attacking of course, but my players usually don't.