Eh...this may be rude but is English your first language? I'm having a little trouble understanding your post but I think I an idea of what you mean.
So to your first question I respond with the following:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Perception checks are normally reactive, unless you are intentionally searching for something, which makes it a move action.
You are wrong that you have to actively search for hidden characters during a fight. You would receive a reactive free perception check each round (vs their stealth) to detect them. On the players turn they could spend a move action to attempt to locate a hidden character if they were otherwise unable to do so.
As far as what you mean by "all roll dices automatically together" I'm just lost.
Stealth does not convey the benefits of invisibility, by the rules as written is doesn't even convey the ability to Sneak Attack. However, this is considered a genuine omission of the rules and most people house rule that it is allowed. However, being hidden would not give a +2 bonus to attack, but they would lose their dex to AC.
As far as Readied Actions go:
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
While readying generally causes you to take your action before the condition that caused it, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.
If we look at the rules for distracting spellcasters it would be impossible to distract them if your action could only occur before the conditional activity. In this case, you attack while they are casting the spell. If you attacked before, they would not take the penalty to their spellcraft check to cast the spell.
So it is very reasonable to ready an action to attack an enemy for when they become visible. The reasonable way to run it is that the attack takes place immediately after the enemy becomes visible, which occurs after the first attack is made.
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Otherwise its almost impossible to sneak to a group if they all roll dices automatically together, without having to say so.
Depends on the modifiers and the size of the group.
Stealthy characters often have really high stealth. Dexterity is usually a key combat stat for these characters, and you can get significant bonuses from everything from invisibility (+20) to magic items to race to smaller size. A 1st level heroic goblin can easily have +16 Stealth without magic (1 rank, +3 class skill, +4 dex, +4 racial, +4 size).
While most PCs and many NPCs have a good perception bonus, it's rare for it to get quite so high. At 1st level you rarely see Perception modifiers above +8 (1 rank, +3 class skill, +4 Wis or +2 Wis and +2 racial), and most will be in the +2 to +6 range. If the goblin takes 10, its check is 26 - which means the very perceptive character needs an 18 to detect it and most 1st level characters can't spot the goblin even with a 20.
Even a standard goblin with a mere +10 stealth has a 30% chance of sneaking up on a party with perception modifiers of +8, +4, +4, and +0. That's pretty good considering that the party would clobber the goblin in actual combat!
It's really weird playing a super perception character. Having a +18 to perception at level 1 makes it hard on the DM to ever hide anything from the party.
Familiar. It nets you alertness and an owl or hawk gives a situational +3.
Btw, 18 isn't the max. Just the highest I ever actually played. It made me feel bad for the DM.
Technically speaking you could be a wizard with a familiar that grants a bonus to perception, but that doesn't mesh well with 20 wisdowm
Shaman and a few Druid domains grant a familiar. The eagle domain is particularly nice for getting an extra +3 in bright light from the hawk. The eagle domain also has a +perception power, but it's a bit difficult to rely on.
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You absolutely can get a very high Perception. It just takes a bit more work than a comparable Stealth - and then it's more of a 1v1 contest between the high perception character and the high stealth character, with most of the group being extremely unlikely to spot the sneak.
Also I'd bet that the cap on stealth is higher than the cap on perception.
1st level goblin homunculist alchemist:
1 rank
3 class (via trait, eg conspiracy hunter)
6 Dex (18+4=22)
4 racial
4 size
3 cat familiar (not conditional!)
3 skill focus
1 trait (above)
= +25. Add Reduce Person extract for another +1 from Dex increase and +4 from Size (Small +4 -> Tiny +8), for a total +30.
At 2nd level take Dex mutagen as a discovery for another +2 (and also combat benefits). At 4th level you can take Invisibility as an extract. Note that it's usually easier to predict when you'll need these stealth buffs than when you'll need passive perception buffs.
Bonus points if you can get stealth synergy with your familiar, which reduces the risk of a bad roll.
That stealther is pretty strong but that's mostly because of all the goblin goodies. And goblins aren't going to be an option in a lot of games.
Half elf shaman
1 rank
3 class from trait
1 trait
5 wis
2 race
3 skill focus from half elf
2 alertness from familiar
3 from owl or hawk, but light level dependent
+17 or +20 total depending on light level.
Note that this could also be done with Druid. And also that the half-elf would still have a free 1st level feat.
Hey guys, can we keep the thread on topic. I fear the OP might not use English as a first language and may be confused as to why the conversation has become who can build the best stealth or perception at level 1.
Hey guys, can we keep the thread on topic. I fear the OP might not use English as a first language and may be confused as to why the conversation has become who can build the best stealth or perception at level 1.
I feel the original question was already answered in your first post. Now we are just having fun with builds.
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I for one was trying to respond to OP's concern that stealth would be useless if you can make a perception check to detect a stealthy creature without spending a move action.
That stealther is pretty strong but that's mostly because of all the goblin goodies. And goblins aren't going to be an option in a lot of games.
Goblins are an option in any game I run. My SO also has a thing for them. :)
A halfling could use basically the same build and still get a +20 unbuffed, or +25 buffed, which still beats your half-elf shaman's perception - and while the halfling is down a feat its other racial features are better.
Ratfolk and svirfneblin are a step stealthier if your GM is OK with some unusual races but not goblins - they both get +2 dex and a +2 racial bonus to stealth, meaning their modifiers are +22 and +27. The ratfolk +2 Int is also useful for alchemists.
(I could have sworn halflings got +2 stealth as well, but apparently it's acrobatics and climb.)
ALSO it's possible OP was looking for sneaky enemies to use on the PCs in which case goblins are great!
Yes, if you don't have cover or concealment you can not stealth (Hide) w/o some sort of ability that allows you to do otherwise (eg Hide in Plain Sight).
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So if i got you right Claxon a sneaky charakter has to make an hide roll every round, while all the PCs do a perception role. And if i get the text right the sneaky char has also to end his turn in a cover or concealment because otherwise he unhides. (if he doesn't have also invisibility)
That's correct.
Being sneaky requires either skill & planning or else invisibility.
Don't forget distance. You basically get +1 for every 10 feet you are away from the opposition.
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Yeah - a maxxed stealth character is hard to see. For one thing - since it's an active ability which helps you to do things, people are more likely to spend resources beyond skill ranks on it.
While many will put max skill ranks in perception, it's rare to put in many more resources because it's passive and only prevents what said high stealth characters may do.
Frankly - one of the unintended consequences of Pathfinder combining hide & move silently into stealth was that it made it easier. Fewer resources required, and they used to have 2 chances to beat your checks. Plus - size only helped for hiding.
There are plenty of reasons to max perception beyond defeating stealth. Perception is probably the most commonly rolled skill.
No, english ist not my first language but i am lucky that i do understand all the things you wrote (just lacking in writing stuff down)
i try to rewrite the things that might be confusing.
My Problems in that Hide and Perception rule was that this rule is missing in the german guide: The exact passage:
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
is not in the german rules.
so my question: Does my hidden char automatically appear if he can't get to a cover or concealment?
And as far as i use it a stealthed Charakter gets the same modifiers like a invisible charakter: so +2 while the attacked loses his modifier on his DEX. Is that right or do you handle that different?
What i meant with roll all dices automatically was: If a stealthed Charakter sneaks upon the heroes every single heroe get an perception role, which lowers the chance to get near to them.
So if i got you right Claxon a sneaky charakter has to make an hide roll every round, while all the PCs do a perception role. And if i get the text right the sneaky char has also to end his turn in a cover or concealment because otherwise he unhides. (if he doesn't have also invisibility)
Ja das geht. Wissen Sie wenn andere Reglemente von dieses Buch nicht da sind? Sie koennen den PF Team zeigte an. Tut mir leid! Mein Deutsch ist rostig.
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There are plenty of reasons to max perception beyond defeating stealth. Perception is probably the most commonly rolled skill.
Yes - nearly everyone puts ranks in it. Few go out of their way to jack up their perception much beyond that. A stealth character will often go out of their way to get all sorts of extra bonuses. Few will do so for perception.
No, english ist not my first language but i am lucky that i do understand all the things you wrote (just lacking in writing stuff down)
i try to rewrite the things that might be confusing.
My Problems in that Hide and Perception rule was that this rule is missing in the german guide: The exact passage:
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
is not in the german rules.
so my question: Does my hidden char automatically appear if he can't get to a cover or concealment?
It is problematic if they left out parts of the rules when translating from English to German. For what it's worth, if you English comprehension is good, it may be worth consulting Paizo's official rules document in case you have some confusion. If the passage was omitted from the translation this may be something that needs to be brought to Paizo's attention.
To add some more clarity for you there are two requirements for stealth:
1) Cover or concealment
2) Being unobserved
Certain abilities can remove these requirements for using stealth. As an example I give you the ranger abilities Hide in Plain Sight and Camouflage.
Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 12th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of his favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.
So, at 12th level a ranger can ignore the need to have cover or concealment (while in his favored terrain) to make a stealth check. He does however still need to unobserved to make the check. This can be accomplished by using the bluff skill as noted in the Creating a Diversion rules for stealth.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
At 17th level the ranger gets Hide in Plain Sight (while in his favored terrain) and can use Stealth even while being observed. This removes the need to make bluff check if someone is watching you.
Otherwise it's a bit like watching your friend run behind a tree while playing Hide and Seek. You can't see him, but you know where he is because you just watched him run behind the tree.
Assuming you don't have abilities like those, you are not allowed to make a stealth check without first meeting the requirements of being unobserved or having cover/concealment. So yes, your character will "automatically appear" if he does not meet those requirements (though to be technical he was never hidden).
And as far as i use it a stealthed Charakter gets the same modifiers like a invisible charakter: so +2 while the attacked loses his modifier on his DEX. Is that right or do you handle that different?
I think we have a miscommunication here. Stealth does not function like invisibility. If you are hidden using stealth, you do not get a bonus to attack rolls, but the people you are hidden from lose their dex bonus to their AC.
What i meant with roll all dices automatically was: If a stealthed Charakter sneaks upon the heroes every single heroe get an perception role, which lowers the chance to get near to them.
Yes. Everyone gets a perception check to detect the sneaking character. Stealth can be very difficult to accomplish in the game. To add some further clarity though, you only roll stealth once each turn for the character that is sneaking. All opposed checks would compare to the single stealth check. Don't forget to take into account distance penalties on perception. They take a -1 for every 10ft they are from the "source". In this case the person sneaking.
Also, it's worth remember the take 10 rules.
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
So, assuming you have a character that wants to sneak up on the party and he has objects to provide cover for him along the way he can start sneaking up on the party. At this point we will assume he is unobserved. He moves from object to object ending his turn behind something. At the end of each turn he would roll a stealth check, and could take 10 doing so. This helps prevent a poor roll from allowing the party to easily detect him. Once he gets to point where he can reach the party he can move to them and attack, benefiting from stealth (target doesn't get dex to AC) until after he makes his first attack or ends his turn without cover or concealment.
It is also worth noting that in these sort of situations you probably want to roll the perception checks for the party as the GM (if they are likely to use the knowledge that they are making perception checks and not finding anything to change their course of action). For example, if you tell them to roll perception and then don't reveal anything because they didn't beat the opposed stealth but then start casting buff spells, or doing other things that the player's characters should have no reason to do, because they know they've missed something.
I also tend to run those sorts of passive perception checks as taking 10 for the players in these situations. Its much quicker for me as a GM, because I just need to know what their perception modifiers are and don't need to roll any dice.
So effectively, if your character that is attempting to sneak up on the party has a higher stealth score than the party's highest perception score you can "automatically" sneak up on them.
Beware, some players wont appreciate that you used take 10 for their characters or rolled their checks yourself, but it is one of the few ways to make stealth usable as a GM and minimize metagaming.
Another question that suddenly appeared: Can i destroy a scroll or a divine item with an attack of opportunity - combat manuever before the spell is spoken?
Casting a spell will provoke an attack of opportunity. You can use the sunder maneuver in place of any melee attack, which you could use to destroy the relevant periphernalia.
You could also disarm the opponent and force her to drop the scroll.
And, of course, you could also use a readied action.
so the spell couldn't be spoken and the magic is avoided?
That's my reading, yes.
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Yes, if an attack of opportunity leaves you unable to finish your action (like if you're disarmed in the middle of trying to use an item) then you lose the action.
I also tend to run those sorts of passive perception checks as taking 10 for the players in these situations. Its much quicker for me as a GM, because I just need to know what their perception modifiers are and don't need to roll any dice.
So effectively, if your character that is attempting to sneak up on the party has a higher stealth score than the party's highest perception score you can "automatically" sneak up on them.
I'd be wary of making it automatic - a character with +10 perception should have a similar chance to spot a goblin with +9 stealth and +11 stealth, not automatic success spotting the former and automatic failure to spot the latter. Taking 10 for the party and rolling for the goblin retains randomness without requiring multiple rolls - though it does eliminate the additional difficulty of sneaking up on a group since the person with the highest perception sets the stealth DC and the number or skill of additional targets is irrelevant.