So as a crossblooded Bloodrager could i use both Demonic Bulk and Dragon Form at the same time, making myself a large dragon? Seeing how demonic bulk does say you don't have to be humanoid it seems plausible but i'm not sure
huge sorry, not large as it gives you the effect of form of the dragon ii which makes you a large dragon.
thanks for the help in advance
won't work, form of the dragon is a polymorph spell and polymorph spells prevent other size changing spells.
Demonic bulk works as per the enlarge person spell therefore won't stack.
figured it wouldn't be that easy. i guess getting the dragon wings at 16 is the better bet then.
thank you for your help
Ragoz you need to double check the polymorph rules. Explicitly states that spells that change size do not stack with polymorph spells regardless of if they are polymorph.
It specifically and explicitly works as enlarge person, a spell.
Functioning as a spell doesn't make it a spell itself. It just has the effects of Enlarge Person.
quoted from enlarge person "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." and supernatural is a magical effect even if it isn't a spell.
both of you stop it before this gets several pages.
to be clear, spells, spell like abilities and effects are all usually coined off as a "spell" to keep word count down.
it doesn't matter if it's a spell, it's magical and thus doesn't work.
It's not even that -- it counts as enlarge person. You get the good with the bad.
This is why you can get the extra attack from haste with spell combat and flurry of blows, but also can't two weapon fight with either of them. They count has both full attack and two weapon fighting.
This ability counts as enlarge person. Therefore things that won't stack with enlarge person won't stack with this ability.
This is aside from the extremely pertinent point Chess Pwn makes about the enlarge person spell itself also saying it doesn't stack.
Magical size changes regardless of them being a spell or spell like ability or supernatural ability never stack. They almost universally function like something else that is a spell and carry the restriction against multiple size changes stacking. Many things often have it explicitly declared that multiple size changes cannot stack, though not everything and this is what causes the confusion. Unfortunately due to editing and word count they do not include it in every case and expect people to understand the reference to enlarge person or polymorph spells (and the school by association) to cover the situation.
Then is devolves into arguments like this.
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It's not even that -- it counts as enlarge person. You get the good with the bad.
This is why you can get the extra attack from haste with spell combat and flurry of blows, but also can't two weapon fight with either of them. They count has both full attack and two weapon fighting.
This ability counts as enlarge person. Therefore things that won't stack with enlarge person won't stack with this ability.
Except it has that caveat when it's a spell, when it isn't, such as demonic bulk, it doesn't carry that caveat.
This is aside from the extremely pertinent point Chess Pwn makes about the enlarge person spell itself also saying it doesn't stack.I never said it specifically works with whatever this topic is actually about. I said
Demonic Bulk is not a spell. Size changing spells can't be used with polymorph effects. I don't know why you guys are intent on Demonic Bulk (su) being a spell.
it doesn't matter if it's a spell, it's magical and thus doesn't work.
I'd like to see where the rules say that.
More on my point about "enlarge person itself saying it doesn't stack". I could polymorph into a medium or smaller creature and Demonic Bulk would work. As one would not be increasing my size and Enlarge Person would be increasing my size.
Demonic Bulk is not a spell, it will stack with polymorph effects as long as the polymorph spell doesn't make you bigger than when you started.
both of you stop it before this gets several pages.
ITS HAPPENING
The spell stacking rules use "spell" as shorthand fo all effects.Again, unless you can point me to where it says that I'm going to have to keep on believing what I've said.
it's to save space, you really expect them to list all the possible iterations.
You have your caveats confused:
This is a supernatural ability, works as those except:
Caveat, it functions the same as a spell, namely enlarge persons, now the rules that have an affect on spells and how they stack effect on it, except:
Caveat, it works on you regardless of your humanoid status.
Basically:
Use this supernatural ability get this spell effect (as per the spell, with the rules for the spell in place) except humanoid status doesn't matter.
This is because the supernatural ability specifically states it functions as the spell -- when something functions as something else it works like that thing except on the specific instances it calls out (example: working on non-humanoids).
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it's to save space, you really expect them to list all the possible iterations.The spell stacking rules use "spell" as shorthand fo all effects.Again, unless you can point me to where it says that I'm going to have to keep on believing what I've said.
Well, because they wanted to save space and left rules out of the book, a supernatural ability that increases size like Enlarge Person now stacks with a polymorph effect (with my above-mentioned caveat that the polymorph effect can't increase your size). If they didn't want it to happen they should've added a rule that says so. Now I'm not trying to be belligerent, I'm just defending my stance.
You have your caveats confused:
This is a supernatural ability, works as those except:
Caveat, it functions the same as a spell, namely enlarge persons, now the rules that have an affect on spells and how they stack effect on it, except:
Caveat, it works on you regardless of your humanoid status.
We'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't see it saying that. Just because it functions like something that is a spell doesn't mean it is a spell.
Or are you saying that it can also be dispelled now, too (because spells can be dispelled while supernatural abilities can't)? If you say yes then it's obvious we have an even more different reading of it than I thought (and we'll still have to agree to disagree).
You have your caveats confused:
This is a supernatural ability, works as those except:
Caveat, it functions the same as a spell, namely enlarge persons, now the rules that have an affect on spells and how they stack effect on it, except:
Caveat, it works on you regardless of your humanoid status.Basically:
Use this supernatural ability get this spell effect (as per the spell, with the rules for the spell in place) except humanoid status doesn't matter.
This is because the supernatural ability specifically states it functions as the spell -- when something functions as something else it works like that thing except on the specific instances it calls out (example: working on non-humanoids).
i wish i understood what you just said.
edit: you edited it i clicked quote when it was only caveat
To defend your stance you actually have to give a reason you are right.
Not just repeat yourself.
Find some refutation of the points made.
This is from the spell that demonic bulk says it work just like:
"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
To defend your stance you actually have to give a reason you are right.
Not just repeat yourself.
Find some refutation of the points made.
we did, to save space, this is a known issue they face, and is a perfectly reasonable explanation.
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To defend your stance you actually have to give a reason you are right.
Not just repeat yourself.
Find some refutation of the points made.
You have your caveats confused:
This is a supernatural ability, works as those except:
Caveat, it functions the same as a spell, namely enlarge persons, now the rules that have an affect on spells and how they stack effect on it, except:
Caveat, it works on you regardless of your humanoid status.
We'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't see it saying that. Just because it functions like something that is a spell doesn't mean it is a spell.
Or are you saying that it can also be dispelled now, too (because spells can be dispelled while supernatural abilities can't)? If you say yes then it's obvious we have an even more different reading of it than I thought (and we'll still have to agree to disagree).
This is from the spell that demonic bulk says it work just like:
"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
For the third time, I'm not arguing that multiple size-increasing effects stack.
ARGH, i really wish i knew what Abraham spalding posts say half the time. A lot of his posts are worded in ways that confuse me.
You used a supernatural ability. So no SR, no countering, no dispelling.
What does the supernatural ability do? It functions as per the spell, with the only exception being who can use it. Stacking rules apply now because it functions as a spell.
From my reading of your position:
It's not the spell:
Therefore you don't gain the increase to strength, or the penalty to dexterity only the size increase, because that's all it calls out that you get.
Either you get the spell, or you get a supernatural ability that only increases size.
see, I don't follow his logic even though i Think he may be on a side tangent to mine.
Well regardless of logic or not, this whole thread reminded me of something else so:
Your point was that effects other than spells could increase size would and stack with polymorph spells.
That point is patently false.
If your other point was that Demonic bulk isn't a spell well of course it isn't -- but it functions as the spell because it says it does.
When something functions as something else it follows the rules for that thing unless it has exceptions (such as demonic bulk does for the humanoid point).
The FAQ on full attacks points to that -- things that function as other things follow the rules for the thing they follow unless otherwise (and specifically) stated.
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Your point was that effects other than spells could increase size would and stack with polymorph spells.
That point is patently false.
My point, explicitly, is that Demonic Bulk is a supernatural ability and thus stacks with polymorph abilities as long as those polymorph abilities don't increase your size. This is because Demonic Bulk is not a spell. It gains the effects of Enlarge Person as printed in the description of the spell. Because of these effects (because it's printed in the body of what it effectively is), it does not stack with other size-increasing effects.
If it's subject to the caveats of it being spell, then it must also be able to be dispelled. Since it can't be dispelled since it is a supernatural ability, it also is not susceptible to other constraints of being a spell. It is not cast because it is not a spell. It cannot be counterspelled because it is not a spell. When I enrage and grow because of Demonic Bulk, a successful (or rather not successful) spellcraft check won't tell someone what just happened. It can't both be a spell and not be a spell. It either is or it isn't. Obviously I believe it isn't.
If your other point was that Demonic bulk isn't a spell well of course it isn't -- but it functions as the spell because it says it does.
When something functions as something else it follows the rules for that thing unless it has exceptions (such as demonic bulk does for the humanoid point).
It doesn't say it is a spell. It says "as enlarge person". To me this says it gains the effects of Enlarge Person.
The FAQ on full attacks points to that -- things that function as other things follow the rules for the thing they follow unless otherwise (and specifically) stated.
I don't see how full-attacks is related to either size-changing effects or polymorph effects.
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Demonic Bulk is a supernatural ability and thus stacks with polymorph abilities as long as those polymorph abilities don't increase your size.
Combining Magic Effects
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:
All the magic section stacking rules use spells as shorthand for "spells or magical effects". You are not following the rules when you assert a supernatural effect isn't covered.