Donny Schuijers |
Greetings and Salutations,
Now before you start sighing add this thread for being another one of those rants about the difficulty: This is NOT the point of this thread. There certainly enough of threads that tackle why it is hard and that people don't like a game to be this challenging this early.
So, how did I come to this thread: Today I finished the first Adventure with my girlfriend, and we felt a bit.. awkward. Having had so much struggles with the Base Adventure and later on just plowing through the first adventure. How was this possible. So, we decided to try it all again. But different.
So, how did we make Wrath easier?
Well, it's fairly simple. We decided to start with the First Adventure, and then doing the Base Adventure. We decided to stick to original reward system. So the rewards switched over from Adventure to Adventure. Meaning we would get to Loot Scales in the Base Adventure and some extra (simple) boons at the end of our first Adventure.
We found this to be a more fair game of playing, because (as others have pointed out) this way, the more fun boons and banes come in to play in the (Very Hard) Base Adventure.
Now, I hope you can all enjoy or (at least) try this new way of playing. It certainly made the first two adventure for us more entertaining and they even felt more rewarding and less anti-climax(ish).
If this way op playing has been pointed out in a different thread, I apoligize. Keeping up with all the threads about difficulty is too much work for me. Anyway: Hope you enjoy.
Mike Selinker Adventure Card Game Designer |
Donny Schuijers |
So, in theory, I could even do 1-6 and then decide to start B? I feel inspired by this way of thinking, Mike.
But for reals, I did some theorycrafting. Besides dodging the obvious Elven Entanglement-bullet for a later adventure this way of playing has some several other benefits:
1) Since there aren't any monsters from 1 included, most of the time Mongrels will have significantly lower checks when you arrive at the Mongrel Village.
2) Most of the scenarios in Adventure 1 have locations that have LESS monsters and barriers than their Adventure B counterpart (excluding the first scenario). Meaning you have an overall LOWER chance to stumble upon a Carrion Golem or an Arobreal Blight.
3) When comparing the fourth scenario, it is also probably easier. Not only does Faxon (1) have a lower check to defeat than Karsos (B). But Faxon can actually easily be defeated by simply finding him, where as Karsos has to be found by scouting, since he will be dealing damage if it's your first exploration: Possibly wiping your hand.
4) Villains in B have the following checks to defeat: 12-14-15-14-14/12
Villains in 1 the following: None (auto close)-14/12-13-12-13
Meaning, most of the Villains are actually easier to defeat or Locations to close (I could make a theory about that too)
Well, I think I can rest my case.. ^^'
In the end: Playing Adventure 1 then B made the game more fun for us: It gave a nice ramp up to 1 and it didn't have the ending of some Scenarios of: "Is this the first adventure.. Oh.. we're already done?"
Also, thank you, Mike, for your feedback!
Jason S |
I just played 13 sessions of Wrath last week and I generally enjoyed getting the AD 1 barriers. You get temptations and then other barriers like Rallying Cry... basically barriers with no downside and they all get banished after you encounter them. Yes I saw the cultist one rarely, but by far I saw many more temptations, so much so I removed my masterwork tools from my deck. Which I later regretted after encounter a certain trap in AD 2...
Try it first and see.
mlvanbie |
I don't believe the rulebook ever says "You must play all of B before starting 1." It just suggests doing so. If playing 1 before B makes you happy, nothing in the game stops you from doing that.
I believe that you previously theorized that if you play an adventure at level N, you can't play cards of level greater than N. What ever became of that? OP has a somewhat different rule.
Page 4 of the Wrath rulebook says to leave The Worldwound Incursion sealed until after your first play. So B-1, 1-1, 1-2, ... should be okay. Or you could extract the cards without breaking the seal.
If there's anything that Wrath teaches, I think that it should be 'some seal were not meant to be broken'.
Mike Selinker Adventure Card Game Designer |
I believe that you previously theorized that if you play an adventure at level N, you can't play cards of level greater than N. What ever became of that?
That was a method of trying to deal with the consequences of multiple groups playing out of the same box, if I recall correctly. Just a theory.
Donny Schuijers |
I just played 13 sessions of Wrath last week and I generally enjoyed getting the AD 1 barriers. You get temptations and then other barriers like Rallying Cry... basically barriers with no downside and they all get banished after you encounter them. Yes I saw the cultist one rarely, but by far I saw many more temptations, so much so I removed my masterwork tools from my deck. Which I later regretted after encounter a certain trap in AD 2...
Try it first and see.
I agree with you, though: As I mentioned, I first did the "classic" way of playing and my girlfriend and I got really lucky. We didn't encounter Arboreal Blight in Adventure B and 1 and only once did we stumble upon Carrion Golen which we obliterated with Blessings and Distant Bow attacks. We also cornered the Villain really fast in Elven Entanglement.
So yes, it is very much doable: But as most people pointed out: Failing in Adventure B gives more the feeling of 'luck' then the feeling 'what could have we done different'.
This way of playing just tries to diminish the luck-factor and feel the first two Adventure feel more chronological correct difficulty-wise.
Keith Richmond Pathfinder ACG Developer |
I just played 13 sessions of Wrath last week and I generally enjoyed getting the AD 1 barriers. You get temptations and then other barriers like Rallying Cry... basically barriers with no downside and they all get banished after you encounter them.
For clarity, those barriers are all B barriers.
Zenarius |
My group just completed ap1. Very challenging.. Both ap0 and ap1 - Many times we thought we wouldn't win.. Then kept going and completed at the last blessing timer.... Many times finally found the villain just in time... Many times took just a bit of risk and made it.. By the skin of our teeth..
Wrath really needs teamwork. Great great game design. Those facing the challenge - enjoy the ride and work together. Don't give up - the success of clearing it is very satisfying!
Keith Richmond Pathfinder ACG Developer |
Keith Richmond wrote:For clarity, those barriers are all B barriers.All I know is that I didn't fear barriers when I played AP 1. It was more of a loot run. AP 2, not so much.
Random is, as always, random. But at least a couple times on the forums, it was mentioned that the Temptations and Rallying Cry get added with AD1, so I just wanted to correct that.
The Temptations and Rallying Cry are B barriers, not 1 barriers, so your chance of loot (and Demonic Hordes and Arboreal Blights) is higher with just B barriers.
AD1 barriers like Bilious Bottle, Poison Spiked Pit Trap, and Crazed Cultists are hardly pushovers. Just adding in AD1 banes is not the safest solution for those having trouble.
Orbis Orboros |
I don't believe the rulebook ever says "You must play all of B before starting 1." It just suggests doing so. If playing 1 before B makes you happy, nothing in the game stops you from doing that.
My groups normally skip B altogether. In the past, when I've introduced players to the game, they tended to get bummed out when they didn't get a feat at the end of the first scenario, feeling that the game progresses much too slow.* So we always start out in AP 1, and then see no need to go back and do B. Only reading recent threads have I come to see that this is abnormal - we always viewed the B scenarios as demo scenarios (helped out in no small part by the fact that RotR APB S1 was so darn easy).
*These players always come around after a few AP1 scenarios, but the disappointment at the reward scale of APB is always there for someone when I'm demoing the game. (Remember that the first scenario, what with learning how to play, takes a long time for virtually no reward to the players.)
Andrew L Klein |
Mike Selinker wrote:I don't believe the rulebook ever says "You must play all of B before starting 1." It just suggests doing so. If playing 1 before B makes you happy, nothing in the game stops you from doing that.My groups normally skip B altogether. In the past, when I've introduced players to the game, they tended to get bummed out when they didn't get a feat at the end of the first scenario, feeling that the game progresses much too slow.* So we always start out in AP 1, and then see no need to go back and do B. Only reading recent threads have I come to see that this is abnormal - we always viewed the B scenarios as demo scenarios (helped out in no small part by the fact that RotR APB S1 was so darn easy).
*These players always come around after a few AP1 scenarios, but the disappointment at the reward scale of APB is always there for someone when I'm demoing the game. (Remember that the first scenario, what with learning how to play, takes a long time for virtually no reward to the players.)
The B set has always (in S&S and Wrath, 99% sure for Runelords) has always provided a feat, I believe always Card, as an adventure reward. By skipping it you miss out on a feat, and card upgrades to get you to where you're expected to be power wise (which wasn't a huge deal in Runelords, but somewhat so in Shackles and definitely in Wrath)
Oroniss |
I think Orbis' point though is that it's 3 or 5 scenarios you have to play to get a character upgrade which can take a long time for new players.
The first scenario of AP1 gives you a skill feat straight up for both RotR and S&S. (Can't remember if Wrath is the same).
Orbis Orboros |
Right, it's 3-5 scenarios for a measly skill feat. That's 3+ hours for new players before they earn a "real" reward, in their eyes (loot or feat). And I must say I don't feel a lot different. I was going to talk to my group about doing the B adventure for the extra feat in WotR because I heard it was so hard, but then I heard that it's the B adventure that's the hardest, meaning even more effort for that measly 1 feat.
Although if it IS a card feat, I'll get my group to do it anyway. Card feats are the strongest rewards,* in my opinion.
*My reward pecking order, from least to greatest (Loot varies too much to include):
-Non-loot card rewards
-Skill Feats
-Power Feats
-Card Feats
MightyJim |
I think the utility of card and power feats varies a lot from character to character.
Some characters quickly max out on the feats they want to take, so an extra feat is a disadvantage - an extra ally that reduces the likelihood of drawing a weapon, and extra hand-size that puts you that much closer to death.
Early on, a card-feat is pretty-much guaranteed to be a bonus- if there's a card type you can't upgrade at all, then you either don't want it, or that's not the character for you. Plus, it pushes death back by one, later on though...
Orbis Orboros |
Bad news Orbis, it is a card feat.
I don't know if it's more of good news or bad news...
I think the utility of card and power feats varies a lot from character to character.
Some characters quickly max out on the feats they want to take, so an extra feat is a disadvantage - an extra ally that reduces the likelihood of drawing a weapon, and extra hand-size that puts you that much closer to death.
Early on, a card-feat is pretty-much guaranteed to be a bonus- if there's a card type you can't upgrade at all, then you either don't want it, or that's not the character for you. Plus, it pushes death back by one, later on though...
This is one of the many reasons why I love cards that draw, like Imp and Helpful Haversack. They can take up your less useful Card Feats without unduly hindering you. Self removal cards (that bury themselves, or stay displayed) are a decent second place.
But until you max out the card feats you want, I tend to say card feats are the most powerful feats. There are exceptions to every rule, of course (looking at YOU, Oloch).
Although Power feats (especially post-role card) are typically the most interesting.
Joshua Birk 898 |
This is one of the many reasons why I love cards that draw, like Imp and Helpful Haversack. They can take up your less useful Card Feats without unduly hindering you. Self removal cards (that bury themselves, or stay displayed) are a decent second place.
Wait until you see what Andowyn can do with the 'Mastiff.' It might even be enough to get you to play a character who isn't a pure caster ;)
Orbis Orboros |
Orbis Orboros wrote:Wait until you see what Andowyn can do with the 'Mastiff.' It might even be enough to get you to play a character who isn't a pure caster ;)
This is one of the many reasons why I love cards that draw, like Imp and Helpful Haversack. They can take up your less useful Card Feats without unduly hindering you. Self removal cards (that bury themselves, or stay displayed) are a decent second place.
Not likely, I'm already playing a non-Divine (Balazar) in no small part for his draw abilities (so she'd have to be even more attractive than he). What power(s) are you referring to? I don't have a download to refer to, and I've only glanced over my set (looking forward to playing this weekend).
EDIT: I must admit, a lot of the Wrath characters look fun. It's actually frustrating, I have too many characters I want to play - there's still several S&S / CD characters I want to play as well!
*Sigh* I wish I had more game time (don't we all?).
Orbis Orboros |
The mastiff lets you display and discard to draw two cards. She has an ability that allows you to recharge a card at the start of your turn to search your deck or discard pile for an Animal. It's almost like an imp that you get to use every turn.
HOLY COW IT'S RESTO 2.0
...You may have swayed me. 0.o
I must look into this.
Troymk1 |
When I took my friend Mark through RotR, I started him off with the last of the B scenarios. That way we still got a card feat, but didn't have to wade through a ton of scenarios to buff up our decks with allies etc. also made The 1st adventure more interesting as we were still shedding many sub optimal cards
Orbis Orboros |
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When I took my friend Mark through RotR, I started him off with the last of the B scenarios. That way we still got a card feat, but didn't have to wade through a ton of scenarios to buff up our decks with allies etc. also made The 1st adventure more interesting as we were still shedding many sub optimal cards
Isn't the feat a reward for the adventure (not the scenario)? You only get adventure rewards if you play every scenario in the adventure.
Dave Riley |
Mastiff is my best buddy. <3 Finding him during B almost made up for having to wait until AP5 of S&S to get an Imp by taking a card feat for Ally.
And Adowyn do love her animal cards~ Just for fun I took the Barding of Pleated Light (armored wolf knight!) But with her sole animals being Leryn (usually not in her hand) and the Mastiff (usually discarded as soon as it's got) means she hasn't had many opportunities to actually use it. We picked up a Wolf (and saw another in the same location!) in that weird AP2 scenario with the single location at a time. Adowyn was so happy to have a triad of Woof Friends, but since she can recharge ANY card to look at the top card of the location deck, Wolf was forced to bemoan his canine redundancy as he went back into the box (saving Leryn his jealousy). For Adowyn to really use the Barding, she needs something like an Eagle that always stays in her hand--and, of course, Leryn makes Eagles pretty redundant too.
Card Feats don't tend to get boring until AP5--though I'm a little worried about Adowyn, having already exhausted her Blessing and Spell feats (she makes good use of Allies though, and her hand never gets clogged).
Power feats, though... Jim, I'm gonna need you to take that back. I've never met a power feat I didn't want (except for the last one you get before your role card, which was pretty boring with most RotR characters :D) and I'm not familiar with the concept of being "forced" into a bigger hand size. I'm one of those people who believes a 6 hand comes standard and Adowyn has turned into a real murder machine now that I've sunk both power feats into getting her a 7-size hand.
Troymk1 |
Troymk1 wrote:When I took my friend Mark through RotR, I started him off with the last of the B scenarios. That way we still got a card feat, but didn't have to wade through a ton of scenarios to buff up our decks with allies etc. also made The 1st adventure more interesting as we were still shedding many sub optimal cardsIsn't the feat a reward for the adventure (not the scenario)? You only get adventure rewards if you play every scenario in the adventure.
Yes mate, and I changed it.
I believe RotR was rather easy to be honest. Within a few sessions we were cruising so no harm done.