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(Crossposting from the ISR product thread to promote discussion.)
Much has been made of the fact that the changeling race doesn't get a bonus to Intelligence, and how this affects their supposed favoring of the witch class. Since they've been printed in three different sourcebooks now (AP #43, ARG, B4), a change to those modifiers is unlikely.
Here's what I'd really like to see - a low-impact* archetype (or even a feat/trait/alternate racial trait**) for changeling witches that allows them to use their Charisma for all acts of witchcraft. That has the advantage of not obsoleting any books, and lets us have that sweet changeling flavor.
(It's unofficial, but after running them through the race-point calculator in the ARG, I just gave them a +2 racial bonus to Intelligence without taking anything away. You'd be surprised at how not-gamebreaking it was.) ^_^
*"Low-impact" means that it changes as little as possible, so that the archetype stacks with as many other options as possible. The unlettered arcanist and fiend flayer archetypes are good examples of "low-impact".
**A feat or trait, while possibly being a tax, has the advantage of working for the hexcrafter magus as well.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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Yes, I have been thinking of this as well (along with hags in general). I've got to leave for my pet-walking/-check soon, so I'll marinate on it over the drives hither and yon.
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I am fully in favor of any and all new options for changelings, witches, and hags.
I don't think not having an Int bonus prevents them from being good witches. They aren't the mechanically best race for the class but you can work with a race that doesn't give your main stat a bonus if you he some other utility from it.
Still, I have always felt witchcraft felt more Cha-based that Int-based, so the idea of a Cha using witch archetype has appeal to me in general as well as specifically for changelings. We have Wis and Int Sorcerers and Con(!) Witches, so a Cha Witch would be a great addition.
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Yeah, scarred witch doctor makes a great precedent for this sort of thing. ^_^
As for the Int bonus and witchcraft, I don't think it makes them bad, per se. It just clashes a tiny bit with the whole "best at witchcraft" thing, when they're mechanically better as any Wisdom or Charisma-based class. Special shout-out to clerics, who need both.
I'm not normally that much of an optimizer, and I'd totally play one anyway. I like the Charisma-witch idea enough to put it out there, though. ^_^
As for the Hexcrafter Magus, it is a shame you can't take Eldritch Scion but you could take the 3pp Cabalist archetype to have Cha casting.
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There's a Wayfinder one too. It's pretty high-impact though, what with replacing spell recall.
Charisma magus was another of my passions for a long while - bloodrager covered a lot of what I wanted from it though. ^_^
There's always Shaman, which is a great stat fit for it. Maybe an archetype that allows taking a second witch hex, or trades something for access to a greater hex or two?
But Spell Recall doesn't do anything for a spontaneous caster...
Shaman is a good fit for Changelings, and does maintain some witchey flavor (appropriately for a hybrid class) but it would still be nice to have an actual Witch.
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But Spell Recall doesn't do anything for a spontaneous caster...
Shaman is a good fit for Changelings, and does maintain some witchey flavor (appropriately for a hybrid class) but it would still be nice to have an actual Witch.
The problem isn't that Spell Recall does nothing - it's that an archetype that replaces Spell Recall denies you access to 95% of all other magus archetypes. No Cha-based kensai, or beastblade, or hexcrafter.
That's what I meant by high-impact - the archetype denies you access to most others.
What it needs is the Danger Sense text - "this counts as class feature for the purpose of other archetypes".
Agreed on the secondary point. Shamans are too new for me to have explored much, and while it's nice to have them around... I'd like a witch too. ^_^
Might just be me, but I think it could be interesting to make it wisdom-based instead of charisma-based. As far as I know we don't have any wisdom-based arcane casters apart from the Adept, and "wise" rather than "charismatic" could be a good fit for the "hedge-witch" concept. Wise in her ways, insightful, skilled with herbs and poultices, but not one to speak up in a crowd or take the lead when change needs to be made. More of an adviser than a leader.
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Might just be me, but I think it could be interesting to make it wisdom-based instead of charisma-based. As far as I know we don't have any wisdom-based arcane casters apart from the Adept, and "wise" rather than "charismatic" could be a good fit for the "hedge-witch" concept. Wise in her ways, insightful, skilled with herbs and poultices, but not one to speak up in a crowd or take the lead when change needs to be made. More of an adviser than a leader.
To be perfectly honest, I thought the Witch should always have been Wisdom-based.
In unrelated news, I read a lot of Discworld. ^_^
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To be perfectly honest, I thought the Witch should always have been Wisdom-based.
Agreed!
In unrelated news, I read a lot of Discworld. ^_^
That reminds me, I can finally read something besides exam prep! Just picked up the kindle version of Equal Rites for my shift tonight! :D
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Might just be me, but I think it could be interesting to make it wisdom-based instead of charisma-based. As far as I know we don't have any wisdom-based arcane casters apart from the Adept, and "wise" rather than "charismatic" could be a good fit for the "hedge-witch" concept. Wise in her ways, insightful, skilled with herbs and poultices, but not one to speak up in a crowd or take the lead when change needs to be made. More of an adviser than a leader.
Adept is a Divine caster, isn't it?
But yeah, a Wis based Witch would be really cool and fitting!
Might just be me, but I think it could be interesting to make it wisdom-based instead of charisma-based. As far as I know we don't have any wisdom-based arcane casters apart from the Adept, and "wise" rather than "charismatic" could be a good fit for the "hedge-witch" concept. Wise in her ways, insightful, skilled with herbs and poultices, but not one to speak up in a crowd or take the lead when change needs to be made. More of an adviser than a leader.Adept is a Divine caster, isn't it?
But yeah, a Wis based Witch would be really cool and fitting!
You are absolutely correct, not sure why I was thinking Adept were arcane casters. Maybe it was the spell list? That makes an even bigger opening for another* wisdom-based arcane caster though! :)
*I also completely blanked on the Empyreal bloodline for sorcerers.
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As I posted in the other thread, Covens and their members and potential members have the potential for a fascinating backstory (as can be gleaned from Golarion and Earth lore), but are sadly underdeveloped, including Changelings and the Coven Hex (what's up with no Coven Anchor Hex?) and the equivalent Accursed Sorcerer Bloodline Arcana, as well as the original Bestiary entries that were inherited from D&D 3.5 and the more recent Bestiary entries that were seemingly just thrown in without much thought.
In addition, I would like to see a Sorcerous Witch archetype = Sorcerer that uses the Witch spell list and gets a Hex instead of Eschew Materials, and can substitute Hexes (eventually Major Hexes and then Grand Hexes) for Bloodline Feats. This let's you play a Witch who can't spell, but who is not hosed by Familiar loss (if even applicable). Oh, and by the way, this Witch could also run for political office.
While we're at it, lets also add archetypes specific to Changelings/Witchbloods (including new names for some of the Changeling/Witchblood subtypes) and Sorcerer Wildblooded (from Accursed) Bloodlines (copied and slightly edited from this old post, with the Wildblooded Bloodlines below the archetypes):
Hulking Rager (Barbarian archetype for Annis Changelings) trades out Fast Movement for the Wrecker Oracle's Curse (even in the absence of Oracle levels) and trades out Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge for a permanent increase to Large size (the growth is actually gradual, but the changes are mechanically represented in 2 stages, of which the 2nd also gives back Fast Movement). Has the option to gain Strength or Constitution in place of a Rage Power. Also, need to fit Coven (and eventually Coven Anchor) and the limited Spell-Like Abilities in there somewhere, preferably by making them be Changeling-specific Feats that the Hulking Rager gets as bonus feats. Actually, now that the ACG has been out for a while, might want to rebuild this as a Bloodrager archetype, although STILL no Accursed Bloodline is available for Bloodragers (but maybe Abyssal is okay for this).
Green-Faced Druid (Druid Archetype for Mutable Changelings) trades out Venom Immunity for Sound Mimicry and early onset of A Thousand Faces, and specializes Wild Shape to act as a "Humanoid Totem" archetype, eventually adding the ability to duplicate the Monstrous Physique and Giant Form spells, at the expense of being behind levels on normal Wild Shape. Also trades out Nature Bond and Spontaneous Casting for a swim speed, continuous Water Breathing (initially self-only and later usable on others), and some other thematically appropriate Spell-Like Abilities. Also, need to fit Coven (and eventually Coven Anchor) in there somewhere, preferably by making them be Changeling-specific Feats that the Green-Faced Druid gets as bonus feats.
Sea Stalker (Rogue archetype for Seaborn Changelings) trades out Trap finding for Horrific Appearance, trades out Evasion for Amphibious SQ and a swim speed (improved swim speed if you already had one), trades out the Rogue Talents gained at 2nd and 4th level for Evil Eye and Greater Evil Eye (respectively), and thereafter can substitute Witch Hexes (eventually Major and then Grand) for Rogue Talents. Also, need to fit Coven (and eventually Coven Anchor) in there somewhere, preferably by making them be Changeling-specific Feats that the Sea Stalker gets as bonus feats.
Planewalker (Cleric or Oracle archetype for Planewalker Changelings) -- haven't thought this one through as fully yet, but in terms of flavor, it is needed. Should replace Mystery and Revelations with powers that enable ethereal travel, soul trapping/transport, and something like an Eldritch Blast from the 3.5 Warlock. Depending upon how the upcoming Occult Adventures and Advanced Class Origins come out, might want to rebuild this as a Kineticist or Spiritualist Archetype (assuming that I got the right names of upcoming new psychic Base Classes). Also, need to fit Coven (and eventually Coven Anchor) in there somewhere, preferably by making them be Changeling-specific Feats that the Planewalker gets as bonus feats.
More race-specific Wild-Blooded Bloodlines (but please put them where they are easier to find, unlike the current split personality organization of Bloodlines and Wild-Blooded Bloodlines):
Changeling/Witchblood sub-race specific bloodlines of the non-specific Accursed bloodline (again, also add new names that the characters themselves might actually want to use). All of these and the original Accursed Bloodline also add the following Bloodline Feat option: Coven Anchor (lets you anchor a Coven; requires Coven Hex and Major Hex, or Coven Bloodline Arcana and 9th Level Bloodline Power from Accursed Bloodline or one of its associated Wildblooded lines).
Annis: Replaces Horrific Visage with Enlarge (like Enlarge Person, but works even if you quit being Humanoid, and eventually also stacks with becoming Large from some other reason, such as being a Hulking Rager). Replaces Dread Gaze with Alter Self, usable for a certain amount of time (not necessarily consecutive) per day. Also replaces some of the Bloodline Spells with appropriately themed spells.
Mutable: Replaces Bloodline Class Skill with Disguise. Replaces Horrific Visage with weakening attack/grasp (optionally grows claws or improves existing claws, but if you forgo the claws or improvement to existing claws, you do more Strength damage). Replaces Dread Gaze with Alter Self, usable for a certain amount of time (not necessarily consecutive) per day (same as with Annis above). Also replaces some of the Bloodline Spells with appropriately themed spells.
Seaborn: Bumps Dread Gaze from 9th level to 3rd level (replacing Wretched Endurance, and also advancing the progression of number of times per day you can use it), and adds Greater Dread Gaze at 9th level, which lets you use Dread Gaze again on an already-affected target to get the comatose (and potentially fatal) effect. Also replaces some of the Bloodline Spells with more underwater-themed spells.
Planewalker: Replaces some of the spells with soul manipulation powers. Replaces Horrific Visage with a Force Blast. Replaces Dread Gaze by bumping Dream Walking from 15th Level to 9th Level, and makes the 15th Level power a soul-trapping/transport power that synergizes with some of the bonus spells related to this (or alternatively but related to this, a power that makes targets more vulnerable to these/suffer extended effects from these types of spells).
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I went with changing witches from being Intelligence- to Wisdom-based as I decided it fits their theme much better.
It had nothing to do with changelings and my party's witch is fully human, at least race-wise, but it would suit any possible changeling witch in the future.
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I'd actually like to see changeling "bloodlines" such as what was done with aasimar, tieflings, and dhampires, so that we could get some changelings with variant stat mods. (Annis should have +Str, for example, while a sea changeling should probably have +Con; should get weirder once you get into blood hags, etc.)
Though changelings are supposed to be very low key, so I could see why the racial abilities are much lower key than the aasimars/tieflings/dhampires. (Heh. I play up the "pass for human" aspect in my games by making it a DC 30 knowledge (local) to successfully identify a changeling until that check has been passed once; the check drops to DC 20 for future changeling encounters once the person's actually done it before and knows what to look for.)
I.E., it really shouldn't be a DC 10 or 15 check to recognize something that (a) looks just like the father's race and (b) is ludicrously rare. (That town in Andoran probably has more changelings than the rest of the Inner Sea put together.) After all, changelings that are over 18 are an anomaly.
I guess to be more on topic -
A sorcerer archetype that trades out the bloodline spells for witch hexes (and makes them Cha based) could be cool.
Or a similar archetype for an oracle, doing the same with mystery spells.
(Keeping the bloodline powers/revelations seems fitting to me - when it comes to changelings, I'm inclined towards more weird powers rather than more spells.)
Hex channeler is a decent archetype choice (possibly combined with hedge witch, to emphasize the healing/positive energy aspect, or gravewalker, to emphasize the undead/negative energy aspect; the Extra Hex feat will tend to get used a lot, though) for a changeling witch, since the Channel Energy ability uses Cha.
Alternately, both mountain witch and sea witch gain (limited) versions of Animal Empathy with creatures of the respective terrains.
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Reposting this here for all of you, since the OP liked it in the other thread I posted it in...
Okay, here is an idea for why the changeling stat mods work as they are. A changeling decides she wants to be a witch. She doesn't have a penalty to Intelligence but she doesn't have a bonus. So, her mom starts whispering her name, and she goes to investigate... and finds her mom is a witch... nay, not just a witch but a hag. An uber-witch.
Mom: Hon, you already know you want to be a witch, but join me and you can be the witch you were always meant to be...
Changeling: Really? Okay, I'm in!
Mom: Excellent! Here's how the ritual works...
or
Changeling: Ewww, no you are a disgusting evil hag, and I refuse to have anything to do with you!
Mom: Then you shall never reach your true potential.
As for the DC to recognize them, yeah I make liberal use of the "common, uncommon, rare" rules in knowledges and I usually will tell you something else if you don't make the roll, like in the case of changeling, okay yeah she's a human.
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A couple of suggestions I will toss to you involving a Wisdom and Charisma based witch archetypes that are 'low-impact' are from the 101 Simple Archetypes from Rite Publishing. They alter very little about the witch itself and should be able to combine with just about every other witch archetype:
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Wise Witch
"When given the choice, the wise witch takes a goddess as her patron.”
As a wise witch, you have the following class features.
Divine Magic (Ex): You gain Knowledge (religion) as an additional class skill. In addition, whenever you cast a witch spell, you may choose to have it count as a divine spell instead of an arcane spell. All of the normal rules for casting a divine spell (and none of the normal rules for casting an arcane spell) apply to a witch spell that counts as a divine spell.
Wise Witch (Ex): You use your Wisdom, rather than your Intelligence, to determine all class features and effects relating to your witch class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, the save DCs of your spells, and the save DCs of your hexes. You cannot take any other archetype or class feature that changes the ability score on which your witch class features are based.
Charming Witch
"There is no need for violence, here. You will find that I am quite agreeable.”
As a charming witch, you gain the following class feature.
Charismatic (Ex): You use your Charisma, rather than your Intelligence, to determine all class features and effects relating to your witch class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, the save DCs of your spells, and the save DCs of your hexes. You cannot take any other archetype or class feature that changes the ability score on which your witch class features are based.
Charming Witch (Ex): You gain Bluff, Diplomacy, and all Perform skills as additional class skills.
Hex: You must select charm as your 1st-level hex.
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In addition to a Wis based archetype, I would like an archetype that ties the Witch to a fiendish patron. Various fiends, both devilish and demonic, include witchcraft as part of their portfolio. And historically, Witches were accused of being Satan's brides.
A fiendish archetype and/or patron would be appreciated.
^We already have a flavorfully creepy (if not exactly optimal) Undead/Necromancy-associated archetype, so why not fiendish/fiend-bound archetype(s)?
Could also have Celestial-associated archetypes to match.
Flaming Crab Games has a Charisma based Witch Archetype "Feytouched Hexer".
I think whether or not using the Archetype as is, or as a strong starting point for something homebrew, could work great. I've used it, with a few tweaks of my own.
Of course, the Patrons themselves (as listed in the Patron Spells section) are woefully developed, consisting of just lists of bonus spells, with (in most cases) no clue of what they might connect to.
(And Cavalier/Samurai Orders have a related problem to a lesser extent -- at least they have a clue of what they connect to, but really, a generic transnational Order of the Lion?)
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Of course, the Patrons themselves (as listed in the Patron Spells section) are woefully developed, consisting of just lists of bonus spells, with (in most cases) no clue of what they might connect to.
(And Cavalier/Samurai Orders have a related problem to a lesser extent -- at least they have a clue of what they connect to, but really, a generic transnational Order of the Lion?)
I agree. ^_^
I think James Jacobs has said that he would have liked to see the Orders developed more deeply. The Patrons were intentionally kept vague so that GMs could add their own campaign-specific flavor (if I recall correctly).
Also, it is bizarre that none of the Cavalier/Samurai Orders correspond to Hellknight Orders -- with some tweaking and maybe an archetype (Hellknight Armiger), you could make the Hellknight prestige class largely unnecessary (also add a feat Hellknight Rite of Passage that has the same prerequisites as the prestige class and interacts with Hellknight abilities to add in the rest of the prestige class).
* * * * * * * *
For Witch Patrons, I would have at least liked to see as much development as for Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor Domains. These are not ideal (they don't cut it as a substitute for 2nd Editions Spheres and Specialty Priests), but at least they have a small but noticeable amount of flavor.
I would love more hexes for witches. Changelings are awesome too, although I've only ever played one of them. I'd like some more options for changelings who don't intend to become hags.
I would love more hexes for witches. Changelings are awesome too, although I've only ever played one of them. I'd like some more options for changelings who don't intend to become hags.
That is currently all options for Changeling PCs, since there is no way to become a Hag.
As for Dimensional Occultist, I like it, but the only thing that possibly says "fiendish power" to me is the calling spells.
Asmodeus is called Master of Witches, Mestama is the Mother of Witches, and Lamashtu has an exclusive demon servant race that can join Covens. An archetype focused on fiends seems warranted.
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I would love more hexes for witches. Changelings are awesome too, although I've only ever played one of them. I'd like some more options for changelings who don't intend to become hags.That is currently all options for Changeling PCs, since there is no way to become a Hag.
As for Dimensional Occultist, I like it, but the only thing that possibly says "fiendish power" to me is the calling spells.
Asmodeus is called Master of Witches, Mestama is the Mother of Witches, and Lamashtu has an exclusive demon servant race that can join Covens. An archetype focused on fiends seems warranted.
You missed Gyronna. ^_^
I wouldn't mind seeing something with a more explicit fiendish connection, either. I would suggest an arcanist (occultist, unlettered arcanist). Not a witch, but it'll have to do.
Maybe next year, with all the Cheliax stuff, we'll get a real "deal with the Devil" witch archetype...
You missed Gyronna. ^_^
Nope. Despite living in the Abyss, she is a god and not a demon (unlike Lamashtu who is both). She also already has a Witch archetype dedicated to her.
That is currently all options for Changeling PCs, since there is no way to become a Hag.
Changelings can't become hags? I'm confused then. :(
My Advanced Race Guide says that changelings who receive "the call" at puberty may choose to ignore or heed it.
"...those who heed it discover their "mother" and may come into great power by transforming into hags themselves."
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That is currently all options for Changeling PCs, since there is no way to become a Hag.
Changelings can't become hags? I'm confused then. :(
My Advanced Race Guide says that changelings who receive "the call" at puberty may choose to ignore or heed it.
"...those who heed it discover their "mother" and may come into great power by transforming into hags themselves."
I believe what he's saying is that there are no rules for it. ^_^
Ah, I understand. Thanks, LazarX and Kalindlara. :)
I suppose when you think about it like that a Changelings options are as limitless as anyone else's. They're a very fun and interesting race!
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Becoming a hag essentially destroys the character, much like getting turned into a wight does.
I've run it as the changeling functionally dying and being reborn as a new creature that remembers her old personality well enough to fake it while pretending to be a humanoid, but doesn't actually have anything in common with her past self.
Becoming a hag essentially destroys the character, much like getting turned into a wight does.
I've run it as the changeling functionally dying and being reborn as a new creature that remembers her old personality well enough to fake it while pretending to be a humanoid, but doesn't actually have anything in common with her past self.
Not really, it's the same as in the old Savage Species it had rules for transforming yourself into other races usual a powerful magical ritual.
As for being 'destroyed much like a wight', in a way yes and in a way no. Hags, like wights, are monsters. But, if you are using the Monsters as PCs rules or you want an "advanced hag" then you add class levels, unlike the wight, hags do not advance by hit dice.
Where it say they don't gain more racial hit dice?
I would love more hexes for witches. Changelings are awesome too, although I've only ever played one of them. I'd like some more options for changelings who don't intend to become hags.That is currently all options for Changeling PCs, since there is no way to become a Hag.
{. . .}
I think you meant to say "no way . . . that doesn't involve becoming an NPC".
I don't think it says anywhere, as such. Still, every advanced hag I can think of in print was advanced through class levels. I'll have to go double check.
I think a better way of putting it might be "they can - but they don't". ^_^
Yeah, I think that might be a better way of putting it. I mean, just advancing a monstrous humanoid's HD doesn't really do much for them... unlike most other 'monsters'
^Advancing a Monstrous Humanoids HD COULD do something if done in a way like D&D 3.5 Savage Species, but updated for Pathfinder (and otherwise debugged). Savage Species was a great idea in D&D 3.5 -- wish Pathfinder had an equivalent.
Yes, for clarification, I meant there are no rules for the ritual that turns a changeling into a hag. And even if you work something out with the DM, the most likely result is conversion to a NPC.
Furthermore, if you do convince your DM to let you play as a hag, you are no longer a changeling.
So all options available for PC changelings are for changelings that resist their mothers call.
I would love some details on the ritual/transformation. You could do okay by playing a changeling Abyssal bloodrager (very Annis ir Night Hag-ish).
I hereby retract my request for changeling options.
But I remain strong in my desire for more hexes!
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I hereby retract my request for changeling options.
But I remain strong in my desire for more hexes!
Soon, soon (hopefully).
I hope you like claw attacks. ^_^
I totally do. Natural attacks are fun!