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The fact that, according to you, the DC changes based on how the pit is aligned with an arbitrary placement of the grid lines should tell you that you're wrong.
I believe I'm the original person who said that grid lines were an abstraction of the game.
Care to try that again?
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[hipster gamer]I was saying gridlines were an abstraction BEFORE it was cool...[/hipster gamer]
Apparently my point was misunderstood as well. To be clear, I disagree with your assessment Nefreet. In the example "[B][P][P][P][P]", I believe there is a slight overhang either on the edge of [B] or on the edge of the first [P], as well as a slight overhang on either the edge of the last [P] or the space immediately afterwards. The pit is roughly 20ft. across, not necessarily an exact amount. This pit is not necessarily aligned perfectly with the lines on the grid, as is easily seen on any of the map packs and flip mats that Paizo has produced that include streams, rivers or chasms. Bob is not jumping from grid line 1 to grid line 5; he's jumping over the pit. If he rolls the exact amount needed (a 20, for a 20ft. gap), then he lands on the very edge, barely making it, but still safely making it. Regardless, your diagram should read: [B][R][R][P][P][P][P], with the [R]'s representing his running start.
TL;DR:
Rolling a 20 means you manage to clear a 20ft. gap if you have a running start and means you manage to clear a 10ft. gap if you do not have a running start.
I answered your question. Why don't you answer mine? How many squares did he move if he rolled a 17?Sorry, I'm not falling into that trap again.
I must have been confused that this was intended to be a constructive exchange of thoughts and ideas.
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Regardless, your diagram should read: [B][R][R][P][P][P][P], with the [R]'s representing his running start.
My diagram was fine as is. Such things exist. And the running start I already covered in that scenario.
Bob gets a 20, and moves 4 squares. I appreciate people backtracking their answers just for the sake of argument, but as far as I'm concerned it's a done deal.
.... i thought this died and everyone went home. WTH brought this back to life?Care to answer my question here?
Care to respond to a rules citation that you've ignored for 2 pages?
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I must have been confused that this was intended to be a constructive exchange of thoughts and ideas.I answered your question. Why don't you answer mine? How many squares did he move if he rolled a 17?Sorry, I'm not falling into that trap again.
That's exactly how I was operating earlier. I learned my lesson.
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Care to respond to a rules citation that you've ignored for 2 pages?
I find your post irrelevant.
I may be tired. Can you explain what I'm supposed to be taking away from that graphic?
I think we understand your point, but disagree with it. That's fine, no slight intended. I just think that if the acrobatics roll result is equal to or greater than the gap, they make it, as the rule seems to say.
Care to respond to a rules citation that you've ignored for 2 pages?.... i thought this died and everyone went home. WTH brought this back to life?Care to answer my question here?I find your post irrelevant.
I may be tired. Can you explain what I'm supposed to be taking away from that graphic?
To quote myself:
It's just like difficult terrain. Entering the square is 10' if the square is difficult terrain, or 15' if entered on a diagonal. In your example with the 20' pit, you enter 4 pit squares and exit on normal terrain. 20ft jump, 5ft walk.
That's hardly irrelevant. The text under the diagram is, to my knowledge, the only place in the book that describes how you determine the movement requirements of a square.
I think we understand your point, but disagree with it. That's fine, no slight intended. I just think that if the acrobatics roll result is equal to or greater than the gap, they make it, as the rule seems to say.
I am a candidate for nothing and I endorse this statement
Okay. It's been a few hours. Let me give this one more shot.
Assume "Bob" has an ability where he's always counted as having a running start for jump checks. His speed is 30ft. His actual Acrobatics bonus is irrelevant.
Bob wants to see just how far he can jump by rolling his d20. No DC. Purely just for fun. No obstacles. He's in a flat field. After he lands, he stays put. No variables whatsoever.
Bob rolls a total of (20) for his Acrobatics check.
He has moved 4 squares but unlike a scenario with a pit, he is not obligated to move a 5th square. he has jumped 20 feet, counting from where his feet took off at the front of his first square to where they landed at the back of his last one.
The rules are silent in pathfinder on what happens if you jump further than you run out of movement. I have no problem with 3.5's hangtime. *sticks out tongue and plays fly like an eagle*
Trying to do a thought experiment to find a contradiction isn't going to work. The chart is too plain, to clear, and too many wonky things happen if you read it the other way.
A five foot pit explicitly has a DC 5 to jump. Even a tengu cannot tell me with a strait face that you made the DC to jump the pit but still fall into it.
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According to your example, 20' pit aligned with grid -> DC25 to jump
Then, my example which you answered:
20' pit with edges in the middle of a grid square -> DC20 to jump
I did not say that it was a DC 20 to jump a 20ft pit.
I said if your total movement was 20ft, then the DC was 20.
You were playing games with half squares and whatnot. I answered the same as I always have.
Nefreet,
I still think the reason we disagree is you're counting squares and I'm counting feet.
Both are explicitly allowed by the rules.
4 squares is not enough to clear the 20 ft pit, but 20 feet is.
I find the square counting method problematic for pits that don't line up nicely to the grid.
I feel like you're counting squares and it produces inconsistent DCs based on where the pit lines up with the grid.
(This likely will not address your point correctly, but I feel it is how many people see your argument, and why it doesn't make sense to them)
--
To answer your question about the featureless plane, which I think better address the way you're looking at it.
If I'm standing in a 5ft square, and jump 20 feet, I will be 4 squares away. Not far enough to clear a 20ft pit.
So if I'm on a blank flipmat and want to just randomly jump in a direction and I get 20 (assuming free running start) I'll move 4 squares away, and if there happened to be a 20 foot pit starting in the square next to me I'd fall in it.
However if I ignore the grid, and the pit happens to be exactly adjacent to me (closer than an adjacent square on a grid representation) 20 (or 21, whatever) does actually make it across.
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When we're purposefully jumping over pits/sidewalk squares/spiky things/area's we're suspicious of we have the advantage of being able to move right up to the edge before we jump and aren't just jumping from somewhere within 5ft.
---
I think here is where you see the incongruity
This means sometimes jumping 20 feet will require 25 feet of movement, sometimes it will only require 20 feet of movement. This doesn't bother me, it's still only a 20 ft jump.
So, we have a discrepancy. There's this odd 5 feet of movement that's not part of the obstacle.
I feel like you're adding the 5feet of non jumping distance to the jump DC.
You feel like we're subtracting 5feet of jumping distance from the jump DC.
---
(One last try)
Here's what I think doesn't make sense to you. We're saying I made a DC 5 jump check, I am now 2 squares away which is 10 feet. (should be DC 10)
What I think is happening, is we're moving up to the edge of the pit, jumping 5 ft over it and landing. We've moved 10 feet, but only 5 of it was during a jump)
The rules are silent in pathfinder on what happens if you jump further than you run out of movement. I have no problem with 3.5's hangtime. *sticks out tongue and plays fly like an eagle*For the record, under Acrobatics: "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round."
Which means simply, just because you rolled a 61 on your acrobatics does not mean you get to move 61 feet when your max double move is 60. Your turn ends with you still 'floating' 1' away from your landing spot.
I did not say that it was a DC 20 to jump a 20ft pit.I said if your total movement was 20ft, then the DC was 20.
This is the part that doesn't make sense. If I moved 30 and 10 of that was over a pit, the DC isn't 30, it's 10. Think of it as moving through an area of Sleet Storm, you only roll acrobatics for the squares that are covered by the storm, not for the square where you step out of it.
I answered your question. Why don't you answer mine? How many squares did he move if he rolled a 17?Sorry, I'm not falling into that trap again.
The last time you "fell into this trap" you didn't answer in a manner aligned with the rest of the argument. You went to some strange view that the 7ft pit wasn't part of the grid and thus you only needed to add 5ft to the pit's width. We then asked you, and continue to ask, using a grid with squares, if you start in square A and travel 30ft to square B and there's a (7,17, 19)ft pit that I jump over, what's the DC to jump over that pit?
This is the question we were/are trying to see how you answer and you refuse to answer it in this context, and the time you "answered it" you made up some strange, non-actual game scenario to answer with.|
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A super well thought out post.
Thank you. Yes. I recognize the argument is different when you use individual feet rather than squares. As Pathfinder's tactical movement is all about squares, and not individual feet, I disagree with the premise of jumping from the edge of one square to the edge of another.
For me, it's "square to square", just like every other movement mode in Pathfinder. Whether you're walking, climbing, swimming, or jumping, movement should be counted consistently.
But whether we go by feet or squares, the DC would still equal distance traveled. Rather than the DC being divisible by 5, it would be divisible by 1 if we instead used feet. So, DC 11 to clear a 10ft pit, as your total distance traveled would be 11ft.
Regarding the grid line placement, as I stated before, grid lines are an abstraction set up for us players, not our characters. The DC to jump an "X"ft pit should not change based on grid lines. If your total move is 30ft, it doesn't matter whether the 10ft pit is at the beginning or the middle, the DC should remain unchanged. I would not arbitrarily increase a jump DC just because of line placement. That would be one of those "don't be a jerk" moves covered in the Guide.
Likewise, during combat, if someone were required to jump an "X"ft pit, but was forced to do it on the diagonal, I would not increase the jump DC simply because of the diagonal movement. Though, if another GM decided to, I would not fault them for doing so.
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According to your example, 20' pit aligned with grid -> DC25 to jump
Then, my example which you answered:
20' pit with edges in the middle of a grid square -> DC20 to jumpI did not say that it was a DC 20 to jump a 20ft pit.
I said if your total movement was 20ft, then the DC was 20.
You were playing games with half squares and whatnot. I answered the same as I always have.
You absolutely did say that it was a DC20 to jump a 20' pit.
I laid out the scenario, completely pathfinder legal, which was jumping a 20' pit. You answered with a DC20, which was correct.
My scenario: 20' pit, you answered DC20
Your scenario: 20' pit, you answered DC25
If his movement is 20ft, the DC is 20.
Distance = DC
A super well thought out post.Thank you. Yes. I recognize the argument is different when you use individual feet rather than squares. As Pathfinder's tactical movement is all about squares, and not individual feet, I disagree with the premise of jumping from the edge of one square to the edge of another.
For me, it's "square to square", just like every other movement mode in Pathfinder. Whether you're walking, climbing, swimming, or jumping, movement should be counted consistently.
But whether we go by feet or squares, the DC would still equal distance traveled. Rather than the DC being divisible by 5, it would be divisible by 1 if we instead used feet. So, DC 11 to clear a 10ft pit, as your total distance traveled would be 11ft.
Regarding the grid line placement, as I stated before, grid lines are an abstraction set up for us players, not our characters. The DC to jump an "X"ft pit should not change based on grid lines. If your total move is 30ft, it doesn't matter whether the 10ft pit is at the beginning or the middle, the DC should remain unchanged. I would not arbitrarily increase a jump DC just because of line placement. That would be one of those "don't be a jerk" moves covered in the Guide.
Likewise, during combat, if someone were required to jump an "X"ft pit, but was forced to do it on the diagonal, I would not increase the jump DC simply because of the diagonal movement. Though, if another GM decided to, I would not fault them for doing so.
So if we have
[L][P][P][L] it's DC15, but if we have [lp][P][pl] it's only DC10 since in one I move three square and the other I move 2, even though the pit in both was 10ft wide. Because we have to work with only squares, but that the grid placement lines don't matter and change anything? I feel like this is what you just said. Am I correct or did I misunderstand something?*We're saying that total movement is tracked in squares, but the parts of movement in that movement aren't tracked in squares.
**BTW with all this square talk, I get really curious how the 7ft pit in the squares gets handled by you.
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I answered your question. Why don't you answer mine? How many squares did he move if he rolled a 17?Sorry, I'm not falling into that trap again.The last time you "fell into this trap" you didn't answer in a manner aligned with the rest of the argument. You went to some strange view that the 7ft pit wasn't part of the grid and thus you only needed to add 5ft to the pit's width. We then asked you, and continue to ask, using a grid with squares, if you start in square A and travel 30ft to square B and there's a (7,17, 19)ft pit that I jump over, what's the DC to jump over that pit?
This is the question we were/are trying to see how you answer and you refuse to answer it in this context, and the time you "answered it" you made up some strange, non-actual game scenario to answer with.
My answer to that previous question aligned with the same answer I've been giving this whole time.
Distance = DC
If you start in square A and travel 30ft to square B and there's a (10)ft pit that I jump over, the DC would be 15.
That DC of 15 includes the 10ft pit and the 5ft square you land in.
15ft was traversed from the start of your jump to the end of your jump.
This is the part that doesn't make sense. If I moved 30 and 10 of that was over a pit, the DC isn't 30, it's 10.
I did not say that it was a DC 20 to jump a 20ft pit.I said if your total movement was 20ft, then the DC was 20.
And I believe it's 15.
That's what makes sense to me.
Distance = DC
This is the funny part. You keep saying Distance = DC, and the distance of the pit is 10, so you only need to beat DC 10. As the distance that needs to be crossed is a 10ft pit and
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed
We're not needing to cross 15ft of ground, we are going to travel 15ft, but we only need to cross a 10ft pit with a jump.
If I want to jump over a five foot pit in the next grid square, I move forwards a couple of feet, jump five or six feet, then move a couple more feet to get myself aligned into the target grid square. Distance moved: 10 feet. Distance jumped: less than 10 feet. Distance traveled is not distance jumped, unless you choose to jump the whole way.
Well, then the Devs can answer it before someone really forgets this is only a game and says it's not 11 it's 12 because if you get too close to either edge the edge will crumble, or they'll remember there are games out there that tell you how far you can jump based on how tall the character is, but us old timers have to get some sleep.
I answered your question. Why don't you answer mine? How many squares did he move if he rolled a 17?Sorry, I'm not falling into that trap again.The last time you "fell into this trap" you didn't answer in a manner aligned with the rest of the argument. You went to some strange view that the 7ft pit wasn't part of the grid and thus you only needed to add 5ft to the pit's width. We then asked you, and continue to ask, using a grid with squares, if you start in square A and travel 30ft to square B and there's a (7,17, 19)ft pit that I jump over, what's the DC to jump over that pit?
This is the question we were/are trying to see how you answer and you refuse to answer it in this context, and the time you "answered it" you made up some strange, non-actual game scenario to answer with.My answer to that previous question aligned with the same answer I've been giving this whole time.
Distance = DC
If you start in square A and travel 30ft to square B and there's a (10)ft pit that I jump over, the DC would be 15.
That DC of 15 includes the 10ft pit and the 5ft square you land in.
15ft was traversed from the start of your jump to the end of your jump.
But what if the 10ft pit is between squares, so that you only traverse 2 squares to jump the pit? like in this [lp][P][pl] that's a 10 foot pit, but the distance per squares is only 2, is it now a dc10 jump?
I'm still waiting to hear where your method is supported by the rules.
People are advocating "floating" above a pit before continuing movement, and that DCs change depending on whether you're aware of the pit or not.
That doesn't make sense to me.
No one has said the DC changes depending on whether you're aware of the pit or not, that's you misinterpreting what is being said.
the distance of the pit is 10, so you only need to beat DC 10. As the distance that needs to be crossed is a 10ft pit and
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossedWe're not needing to cross 15ft of ground, we are going to travel 15ft, but we only need to cross a 10ft pit with a jump.
I've already explained in the rules where we are supported. Is the pit 10ft or 15ft that we need to cross? That is the DC of the jump. If we wanted to jump all the way from one square to the next it would take a DC15, but if we're just going to move the 15ft and jump as needed then it's a DC10 to cross the 10ft pit.
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It's just like difficult terrain. Entering the square is 10' if the square is difficult terrain, or 15' if entered on a diagonal. In your example with the 20' pit, you enter 4 pit squares and exit on normal terrain. 20ft jump, 5ft walk.That's hardly irrelevant. The text under the diagram is, to my knowledge, the only place in the book that describes how you determine the movement requirements of a square.
Call me daft, then. I'm still not following.
Perhaps you have the answer to all my questions, and I just cannot comprehend it.
Obviously if your landing point is difficult terrain, that will hamper your movement. I don't think anything I've said goes against that. To my knowledge, it shouldn't effect the jump DC, but even if it does, it's irrelevant to what we're discussing.
**BTW with all this square talk, I get really curious how the 7ft pit in the squares gets handled by you.I've answered this a few times, now.
Where are the few times? As far as I'm aware it was once, but I easily could have missed it with all the posting from everyone. If you'd be so kind as to link me the few times you've answered it that would be great. And there's no need to link the time you were saying it was 12ft traveled because of the square at the end of the pit that wasn't in a square as that's the one I'm already aware of.
It's just like difficult terrain. Entering the square is 10' if the square is difficult terrain, or 15' if entered on a diagonal. In your example with the 20' pit, you enter 4 pit squares and exit on normal terrain. 20ft jump, 5ft walk.That's hardly irrelevant. The text under the diagram is, to my knowledge, the only place in the book that describes how you determine the movement requirements of a square.Call me daft, then. I'm still not following.
Perhaps you have the answer to all my questions, and I just cannot comprehend it.
Obviously if your landing point is difficult terrain, that will hamper your movement. I don't think anything I've said goes against that. To my knowledge, it shouldn't effect the jump DC, but even if it does, it's irrelevant to what we're discussing.
Here let me help clarify his point.
[Y][P][P][L]So to start you see what will it take to move into the next square, 5ft of jumping. So now we're here
[L][Y][P][L]
now you see what it takes to enter the next square, 5ft more jumping for total of 10ft of jumping so far. Now you're here
[L][P][Y][L]
now you see what it takes to enter the next square, 5ft of walking for a normal terrain square, so you walk that 5ft. So you've jumped 10ft, 5ft to enter each square, and then walked 5ft to enter the final square.
Thus you calculate the needed movement amounts for entering squares to determine how much and what kind of movements are need to traverse said squares.
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But what if the 10ft pit is between squares, so that you only traverse 2 squares to jump the pit? like in this [lp][P][pl] that's a 10 foot pit, but the distance per squares is only 2, is it now a dc10 jump?I answered your question. Why don't you answer mine? How many squares did he move if he rolled a 17?Sorry, I'm not falling into that trap again.The last time you "fell into this trap" you didn't answer in a manner aligned with the rest of the argument. You went to some strange view that the 7ft pit wasn't part of the grid and thus you only needed to add 5ft to the pit's width. We then asked you, and continue to ask, using a grid with squares, if you start in square A and travel 30ft to square B and there's a (7,17, 19)ft pit that I jump over, what's the DC to jump over that pit?
This is the question we were/are trying to see how you answer and you refuse to answer it in this context, and the time you "answered it" you made up some strange, non-actual game scenario to answer with.My answer to that previous question aligned with the same answer I've been giving this whole time.
Distance = DC
If you start in square A and travel 30ft to square B and there's a (10)ft pit that I jump over, the DC would be 15.
That DC of 15 includes the 10ft pit and the 5ft square you land in.
15ft was traversed from the start of your jump to the end of your jump.
According to the graphic supplied earlier, it would still be DC 15.
10ft pit + (2.5ft x 2)
Since the 2.5ft is doubled, due to squeezing.
I had never considered that before, but it aligns with the evidence other people are providing.
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there's no need to link the time you were saying it was 12ft traveled because of the square at the end of the pit that wasn't in a square as that's the one I'm already aware of.**BTW with all this square talk, I get really curious how the 7ft pit in the squares gets handled by you.I've answered this a few times, now.
Sorry to disappoint.
It's the same answer I've been giving.
Distance = DC
So you agree with me that it would be 11 to jump over the 10 foot pit if we were using feet, but because we're using a grid it's 15.
I follow that logic.
I'm confused how we get to some of your other answers though.
You're saying a 7ft pit is DC 12, right?
I think you're saying that rather than meet the distance of the obstacle on our jump we must exceed it, and that because of squares that exceeding must be by 5?
(This is why people think you're adding 5 btw)
Why is 2.5 doubled for squeezing? I thought we weren't supposed to care about 2.5s sinceBut what if the 10ft pit is between squares, so that you only traverse 2 squares to jump the pit? like in this [lp][P][pl] that's a 10 foot pit, but the distance per squares is only 2, is it now a dc10 jump?I answered your question. Why don't you answer mine? How many squares did he move if he rolled a 17?Sorry, I'm not falling into that trap again.The last time you "fell into this trap" you didn't answer in a manner aligned with the rest of the argument. You went to some strange view that the 7ft pit wasn't part of the grid and thus you only needed to add 5ft to the pit's width. We then asked you, and continue to ask, using a grid with squares, if you start in square A and travel 30ft to square B and there's a (7,17, 19)ft pit that I jump over, what's the DC to jump over that pit?
This is the question we were/are trying to see how you answer and you refuse to answer it in this context, and the time you "answered it" you made up some strange, non-actual game scenario to answer with.My answer to that previous question aligned with the same answer I've been giving this whole time.
Distance = DC
If you start in square A and travel 30ft to square B and there's a (10)ft pit that I jump over, the DC would be 15.
That DC of 15 includes the 10ft pit and the 5ft square you land in.
15ft was traversed from the start of your jump to the end of your jump.
According to the graphic supplied earlier, it would still be DC 15.
10ft pit + (2.5ft x 2)
Since the 2.5ft is doubled, due to squeezing.
I had never considered that before, but it aligns with the evidence other people are providing.
Nope. Square to square. If it makes you sleep better to put me in some sort of box, go ahead, but quit putting words in my mouth.
Words such as "edge to edge", "middle to middle", "center to center", "1ft", "2.5ft" are descriptions I oppose.
And going with square to square as you propose we should, it should be DC10 as you only moved 2 squares.
there's no need to link the time you were saying it was 12ft traveled because of the square at the end of the pit that wasn't in a square as that's the one I'm already aware of.**BTW with all this square talk, I get really curious how the 7ft pit in the squares gets handled by you.I've answered this a few times, now.Sorry to disappoint.
It's the same answer I've been giving.
Distance = DC
So you agree the DC is 7ft, since that's the distance you need to cover with your jump? If not it shouldn't be hard for you to figure out with your rules what the DC should be for you, but it's impossible for us to do so since we don't understand the logic behind the rules you're using.
I'm still waiting to hear where your method is supported by the rules.
People are advocating "floating" above a pit before continuing movement, and that DCs change depending on whether you're aware of the pit or not.
That doesn't make sense to me.
'Floating' is a tangential issue to the main question here. Don't let it confuse you. And I don't believe anyone has changed the DC based on awareness of the pit. I answered a 20 on the roll results in a 20' jump. What is missing from that explanation is where did the jump start? 5' from the pit? He just fell in. Right at the edge of the pit? He just cleared it.
Remember the grid is an abstraction. If I'm standing on the grid line when I jump 20', where do I land? On a grid line 4 squares farther. You are taking the grid abstraction and trying to force a mechanical implication on it where the rules do not call for it.
But let me point out, with rules text, what the roll of 17 means.
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump...
How many grid squares is 17 feet? It's 3.4 Now you cannot end your movement at 3.4 squares moved, so we either need to round down (unfair to the player for a 15' pit that they beat the DC for) or round up (also not valid if they are out of movement). OR (and the correct answer is) they jumped a distance of 17 feet, then continue their movement on solid ground if the pit was 17 feet or less in width.
Now, can you provide any rules text to invalidate any of this? Because if I jumped 17 feet, by the rules, are you going to claim that I didn't make it over a 16.99999 foot pit because I didn't move 20' yet (the grid aligned distance).
The rules are perfectly capable of handling jumps over non-grid aligned gaps - and gaps that are not multiples of 5' increments. And they perfectly spell out what the distance to clear that gap is. And posts by SKR show that this really is the intended design and not just the RAW. Further, nothing in the rules states, or hints at, that your jump is from center of grid to center of grid.
And real world measurements of distances jumped (toe-to-heel) indicate that a 10' jump would clear any pit of 10' or less.