No one here is. We just recognize you don't have to be jumping for your full movement unless the gap is equal to your full movement. (And even then, you probably won't make it if it IS equal to the full movement you make.)All this talk about moving and adding an extra +5 is nonsense, and overly complicates an extremely simple issue.It'd be even simpler if we just went by the DCs listed in the CRB, and didn't subtract 5 from them.Get rid of the "have" idea.
Two characters want to jump 20ft.
One does so over open ground, and lands 4 squares away.
One does so over a 15ft pit, and lands 4 squares away.
I believe the DC should be the same. You are claiming it's different. I have not yet heard a convincing argument as to why.
B did NOT LAND 20ft away, he ended his turn 20ft way, but landed 15ft away from the start of his jump, which was just enough to clear the pit. If you go back to my 1ft example you'll see what movement modes and in what increments are being done to achieve this result.
A DID land 20ft from the start of his jump and didn't move anymore, thus ending his turn 20ft away.
And where on that Acrobatics DC chart does it support your 1ft increment idea? Quotes preferred, please.
Until then, I'm not getting distracted by pretending we're playing Warhammer 40k.
first we know that total movement used to get there is set so 20ft movement.
second we know that the default mode of movement is walkingthird we have this quote
If you know on average you can jump 10 feet, and you find a chasm that's 5-9 feet across, then you know you can jump across the cavern.
A 9ft chasm takes up 2 squares
forth so a 10ft jump clears the 2 square chasm but you end 15ft awaythus there are 5ft of non-jumping movement.
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You need enough movement available to account for the number of squares you travel from where you start to where you end. As part of that movement, you need to make one or more Acrobatics checks, each of a DC equal to the width of the obstacles that you wish to long jump over, that you cross during that movement.
Does anyone disagree with this presentation of the two sides?
I'll take that as a "disagree".
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The rules specifically call out that you can jump vertically in increments of 1'. So arguing that the rules require you to jump in 5' increments is not true, unless you think the rules for horizontal movement in Pathfinder are not the same as the rules for vertical movement.
They are not the same. I'd think that would be apparent just by reading the skill description.
Effectively, what I'm trying to say is that to travel 15ft of distance, I need to make a DC 15 Acrobatics. The last square is counted in distance crossed.
What other people are trying to say is that to travel 15ft of distance, I need to make a DC 10 Acrobatics. The last square isn't counted in distance crossed.
I see it as Distance = DC. Same number. Easy to calculate by glancing at the grid. Intuitive and quick.
Others see it as Distance - 5 = DC. Different numbers. Longer to calculate. Not intuitive. Gets muddied when diagonals are concerned.
Does anyone disagree with this presentation of the two sides?
I agree with this as the two sides.
I still don't see how anyone could conclude the way you have, but it is a fair restatement of the two positions.
The only thing I would clarify though is that presenting the DC 10 side as traveling 15 feet of distance is slightly misleading. The argument I am making, is that if I want to travel 15 feet of distance, of which 10 feet are a jump because there is no ground there, I need a DC 10 acrobatics check. Not being on the ground for 10 feet of my movement, is a DC 10 acrobatics checks.
The DC to jump a gap is the distance of the gap you want to jump. 10' gap, DC 10. If they had wanted it to be more because you need to move that little bit extra (or a lot extra) they would have said the DC is the distance to be crossed + 1 (or + 5).
A 10 clears the 10' gap (just barely), the rules already account for those few extra inches on either side that you need to jump from and land in. A 15 puts you over the 10' gap with a 5' safety measure.
Now if I'm jumping a 10' gap that falls to the center of the world I'd sure like to roll a 30 on my jump check and easily sail right over the entire thing entirely safe and sound, but by the rules, a 10 still safely gets me over the gap. A 5-9 means my ankles/knees/chest slams the far wall and I'm making a ref save to grab hold of something to not fall in. But me personally, if I just make that 10' gap, I'm not going to then stand there on the edge - I'm going to continue moving, probably at least another 5' (total 15' of movement) to be semi-safely away from the edge.
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I will actually somewhat retract from what I said earlier about SKR's comment.
He never mentions DCs. Jumping 5ft is something he can do as Take 10.
That makes sense. The DC would only be 10 (5, doubled because of the standing jump).
But he'd need a running start to jump the 10ft chasm (the same DC as jumping the 5ft pit without a running start).
You are suggesting that to jump over a 10ft pit, we have to jump the entire 15ftYes. Absolutely. Jumping 10ft doesn't clear anything. "Total distance crossed".
I can only quote the Acrobatics section so many times.
See and this is what I feel SKR was saying, that you have to move 15ft total, but you only need to jump the distance of the pit. That 10ft does clear the pit for the jump, and that you have to move the remaining 5ft to be in your square. Thus the 1ft model is used just to show where the 5ft are coming from.
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I ask again, how many squares away from the pit do you need to be to get your 10' running start?Um, no dude, when you say it takes a 15' jump to clear a 10' pit, that's exactly what you are doing. Why are you pretending otherwise?Why do people think that you have to jump from the center of one square to the center of another square?I don't know. I've tried to get people away from that idea and it just keeps repeating itself.It's buried either in this thread or the other, but I disagree with that presentation. The square is what matters. Not 1ft in. Not the center. Not the edge. The entire square.
Search my posts. You'll not find a single one mentioning "center" or "middle", but you'll find (at least) two where I'm trying to get people to stop mentioning it.
Sorry if I missed your question earlier, I wasn't avoiding it.
You'd need 10ft. 2 squares. Not counting the square you start in.
I'd hope we can agree on that.
So you need 15' of land distance to run 10'?
We can't agree on that.
Yikes. Alright. Let's walk through this.
[A][X][B][GIANT PIT THAT IS IMMEASURABLE]
Forget jumping at all.
A character in square A wants to travel (walk, fly, climb, skip, whatever) to square B.
How much movement does that require?
I will actually somewhat retract from what I said earlier about SKR's comment.
He never mentions DCs. Jumping 5ft is something he can do as Take 10.
That makes sense. The DC would only be 10 (5, doubled because of the standing jump).
But he'd need a running start to jump the 10ft chasm (the same DC as jumping the 5ft pit without a running start).
So if successfully standing jumping a 5ft with a 10 or successfully jumping a 10ft pit while running with a 10. Now a 10ft pit is 2 square, thus he would have to end his turn in the third square using 5ft of walking movement. total distance traveled 15, total distanced jumped 10
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I will actually somewhat retract from what I said earlier about SKR's comment.
He never mentions DCs. Jumping 5ft is something he can do as Take 10.
That makes sense. The DC would only be 10 (5, doubled because of the standing jump).
But he'd need a running start to jump the 10ft chasm (the same DC as jumping the 5ft pit without a running start).
Wait. Why would he be able to jump the 5' pit with a DC of 10 from a standing start? In your interpretation he'd need to move 10' (2 squares) and thus need a DC of 20.
No, you guys are just getting to me. Lol.
Hey Nefreet I think i have a pretty good grasp of your argument (Please correct me if my characterization of your position is incorrect.)
and have done some research and I think I have an answer.
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed
I believe the distance to be crossed is equal to the distance of the gap one wishes to jump.
You believe the distance to be crossed is equal to the distance between the squares one wishes to jump between.
Movement
There are three movement scales, as follows:Tactical, for combat, measured in feet (or 5-foot squares) per round.
Local, for exploring an area, measured in feet per minute.
Overland, for getting from place to place, measured in miles per hour or miles per day.
I think for the purposes of jumping we're clearly in tactical.
* Tactical movement is often measured in squares on the battle grid (1 square = 5 feet) rather than feet.
So, if we measure in squares (which is a legal way to do so) your math makes sense.
If we measure in feet (which is a legal way to do so) my math makes sense.
The conclusion I've come to is that either way is legal.
(That said, I prefer the DCs we get to measuring in squares, but I believe the measurement in feet is what's intended and makes certain diagonal jumps make a lot more sense.)
I will actually somewhat retract from what I said earlier about SKR's comment.
He never mentions DCs. Jumping 5ft is something he can do as Take 10.
That makes sense. The DC would only be 10 (5, doubled because of the standing jump).
But he'd need a running start to jump the 10ft chasm (the same DC as jumping the 5ft pit without a running start).
Wait. Why would he be able to jump the 5' pit with a DC of 10 from a standing start? In your interpretation he'd need to move 10' (2 squares) and thus need a DC of 20.
No, you guys are just getting to me. Lol.
I am curious as to how he successfully makes these jumps to you
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I am curious as to how he successfully makes these jumps to youI will actually somewhat retract from what I said earlier about SKR's comment.
He never mentions DCs. Jumping 5ft is something he can do as Take 10.
That makes sense. The DC would only be 10 (5, doubled because of the standing jump).
But he'd need a running start to jump the 10ft chasm (the same DC as jumping the 5ft pit without a running start).
Wait. Why would he be able to jump the 5' pit with a DC of 10 from a standing start? In your interpretation he'd need to move 10' (2 squares) and thus need a DC of 20.
No, you guys are just getting to me. Lol.
Because, in real life, we don't count the space that our feet take up as 5ft square. In real life, if we jump a 10ft pit, all we really need to do is jump 11ft and balance a little.
In Pathfinder, using the grid system, that extra "1ft and a little balance" equates to a 5ft square.
Hence why using real life examples of peoples' capabilities doesn't mesh well with what we're discussing.
I was tangent thinking about how he never mentioned DCs, and realized everyone was assuming one DC, when that might not've been the case.
What did you think everyone was assuming the DC was?
What might the DC's actually be if not the one assumed?|
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I ask again, how many squares away from the pit do you need to be to get your 10' running start?Um, no dude, when you say it takes a 15' jump to clear a 10' pit, that's exactly what you are doing. Why are you pretending otherwise?Why do people think that you have to jump from the center of one square to the center of another square?I don't know. I've tried to get people away from that idea and it just keeps repeating itself.It's buried either in this thread or the other, but I disagree with that presentation. The square is what matters. Not 1ft in. Not the center. Not the edge. The entire square.
Search my posts. You'll not find a single one mentioning "center" or "middle", but you'll find (at least) two where I'm trying to get people to stop mentioning it.
Sorry if I missed your question earlier, I wasn't avoiding it.
You'd need 10ft. 2 squares. Not counting the square you start in.
I'd hope we can agree on that.
So you need 15' of land distance to run 10'?
We can't agree on that.Yikes. Alright. Let's walk through this.
[A][X][B][GIANT PIT THAT IS IMMEASURABLE]
Forget jumping at all.
A character in square A wants to travel (walk, fly, climb, skip, whatever) to square B.
How much movement does that require?
10' of movement to move from A to B. Correct.
How much space do X & B take up? The answer is also 10', I hope.Therefore you can run 10' in just X & B, enough to get your running start at the pit.
Yes. Beginning at A, you move 5ft into X, and then 10ft into B.
For some reason I thought you were disagreeing with that.
I am curious as to how he successfully makes these jumps to youI will actually somewhat retract from what I said earlier about SKR's comment.
He never mentions DCs. Jumping 5ft is something he can do as Take 10.
That makes sense. The DC would only be 10 (5, doubled because of the standing jump).
But he'd need a running start to jump the 10ft chasm (the same DC as jumping the 5ft pit without a running start).
Wait. Why would he be able to jump the 5' pit with a DC of 10 from a standing start? In your interpretation he'd need to move 10' (2 squares) and thus need a DC of 20.
No, you guys are just getting to me. Lol.
Because, in real life, we don't count the space that our feet take up as 5ft square. In real life, if we jump a 10ft pit, all we really need to do is jump 11ft and balance a little.
In Pathfinder, using the grid system, that extra "1ft and a little balance" equates to a 5ft square.
Which is what everyone else is saying. You need to jump the 10' pit so you need enough Acrobatics to jump 10'. The rest is movement on the ground. Thus B only jumped 15ft of his 20ft movement, while A jumped 20ft of his 20ft movement.
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Which is exactly what everyone else is saying. You need to jump the 10' pit (plus or minus a bit since no one brought a tape measure) so you need enough Acrobatics to jump 10'. The rest is movement on the ground.
I am curious as to how he successfully makes these jumps to youBecause, in real life, we don't count the space that our feet take up as 5ft square. In real life, if we jump a 10ft pit, all we really need to do is jump 11ft and balance a little.
In Pathfinder, using the grid system, that extra "1ft and a little balance" equates to a 5ft square.
Hence why using real life examples of peoples' capabilities doesn't mesh well with what we're discussing.
Well, not quite.
Entertaining the 1ft increment idea, you'd need at least a DC 11 to jump over the 10ft pit, travelling 11ft total.
And, since we don't count in 1ft increments, you instead travel 15ft, requiring a DC 15 Acrobatics.
wtf happened i drove home from work to return to all this.
what's the DC to jump across a pit that's 7 feet across.
FWIW put me down in the DC10 camp. Sure you have to move 15', but you only have to jump 10' of it. 10' jump=DC10 it's right there in the skill description.
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Because, in real life, we don't count the space that our feet take up as 5ft square. In real life, if we jump a 10ft pit, all we really need to do is jump 11ft and balance a little.
No, in real life we just need a jump that clears 10'. The air portion, toe-to-heel (or whatever body part is closest to the origination point when it lands) has to be 10' If we land on our rump with our butt just at the edge of the pit, part of our bodies will have traveled more than 10', but our jump was 10' long.
In Pathfinder, we would have moved from one square to a square that was 15' away, and we would have had to jump 10'.
I ask again, how many squares away from the pit do you need to be to get your 10' running start?Um, no dude, when you say it takes a 15' jump to clear a 10' pit, that's exactly what you are doing. Why are you pretending otherwise?Why do people think that you have to jump from the center of one square to the center of another square?I don't know. I've tried to get people away from that idea and it just keeps repeating itself.It's buried either in this thread or the other, but I disagree with that presentation. The square is what matters. Not 1ft in. Not the center. Not the edge. The entire square.
Search my posts. You'll not find a single one mentioning "center" or "middle", but you'll find (at least) two where I'm trying to get people to stop mentioning it.
Sorry if I missed your question earlier, I wasn't avoiding it.
You'd need 10ft. 2 squares. Not counting the square you start in.
I'd hope we can agree on that.
So you need 15' of land distance to run 10'?
We can't agree on that.Yikes. Alright. Let's walk through this.
[A][X][B][GIANT PIT THAT IS IMMEASURABLE]
Forget jumping at all.
A character in square A wants to travel (walk, fly, climb, skip, whatever) to square B.
How much movement does that require?
10' of movement to move from A to B. Correct.
How much space do X & B take up? The answer is also 10', I hope.Therefore you can run 10' in just X & B, enough to get your running start at the pit.
Yes. Beginning at A, you move 5ft into X, and then 10ft into B.
For some reason I thought you were disagreeing with that.
I believe he IS disagreeing with that. He's saying if you start in X and move to the pit that you've got your 10ft running start.
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Which is exactly what everyone else is saying. You need to jump the 10' pit (plus or minus a bit since no one brought a tape measure) so you need enough Acrobatics to jump 10'. The rest is movement on the ground.
I am curious as to how he successfully makes these jumps to youBecause, in real life, we don't count the space that our feet take up as 5ft square. In real life, if we jump a 10ft pit, all we really need to do is jump 11ft and balance a little.
In Pathfinder, using the grid system, that extra "1ft and a little balance" equates to a 5ft square.
Hence why using real life examples of peoples' capabilities doesn't mesh well with what we're discussing.
Well, not quite.
Entertaining the 1ft increment idea, you'd need at least a DC 11 to jump over the 10ft pit, travelling 11ft total.
And, since we don't count in 1ft increments, you instead travel 15ft, requiring a DC 15 Acrobatics.
WHAT IS THE DC TO JUMP A 7FT PIT.
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Yikes. Alright. Let's walk through this.[A][X][B][GIANT PIT THAT IS IMMEASURABLE]
Forget jumping at all.
A character in square A wants to travel (walk, fly, climb, skip, whatever) to square B.
How much movement does that require?
10' of movement to move from A to B. Correct.
How much space do X & B take up? The answer is also 10', I hope.Therefore you can run 10' in just X & B, enough to get your running start at the pit.
Yes. Beginning at A, you move 5ft into X, and then 10ft into B.
For some reason I thought you were disagreeing with that.
If you're in A and want to move to B, it takes 10' of movement.
But X & B, by themselves, even if there is no A, but a wall there or something, are enough space to get a 10' running start. Right? There's 10' there. You should be able to run 10' in 10' of distance.
I'm clearly getting a headache from this back and forth, so if you're trying to subtly suggest something, I'm missing it.
If you start from A, you have 10ft to gain your running start (going through X and B).
If you start from X, you only have 5ft, insufficient to gain a running start (as you're only going through B).
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The rules specifically call out that you can jump vertically in increments of 1'. So arguing that the rules require you to jump in 5' increments is not true, unless you think the rules for horizontal movement in Pathfinder are not the same as the rules for vertical movement.They are not the same. I'd think that would be apparent just by reading the skill description.
So I can Fly 1' up but I can't step 1' forward?
Which is exactly what everyone else is saying. You need to jump the 10' pit (plus or minus a bit since no one brought a tape measure) so you need enough Acrobatics to jump 10'. The rest is movement on the ground.
I am curious as to how he successfully makes these jumps to youBecause, in real life, we don't count the space that our feet take up as 5ft square. In real life, if we jump a 10ft pit, all we really need to do is jump 11ft and balance a little.
In Pathfinder, using the grid system, that extra "1ft and a little balance" equates to a 5ft square.
Hence why using real life examples of peoples' capabilities doesn't mesh well with what we're discussing.
Well, not quite.
Entertaining the 1ft increment idea, you'd need at least a DC 11 to jump over the 10ft pit, travelling 11ft total.
And, since we don't count in 1ft increments, you instead travel 15ft, requiring a DC 15 Acrobatics.
The total movement isn't in 1ft increments, but the DC to jump over something is, as it's only the distance of the pit. So if the pit is 9ft across, you could jump it with a DC9 and end 15ft away, using 15ft of movement.
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You are suggesting that to jump over a 10ft pit, we have to jump the entire 15ftYes. Absolutely. Jumping 10ft doesn't clear anything. "Total distance crossed".
I can only quote the Acrobatics section so many times.
So if you move ten feet, jump a ten foot pit, and then move ten more feet, that's a DC 30 check somehow? Since that's "the distance to be crossed"?
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So if you move ten feet, jump a ten foot pit, and then move ten more feet, that's a DC 30 check somehow? Since that's "the distance to be crossed"?You are suggesting that to jump over a 10ft pit, we have to jump the entire 15ftYes. Absolutely. Jumping 10ft doesn't clear anything. "Total distance crossed".
I can only quote the Acrobatics section so many times.
No. And don't do that. You know what I mean.
The DC would be 15.
Yikes. Alright. Let's walk through this.[A][X][B][GIANT PIT THAT IS IMMEASURABLE]
Forget jumping at all.
A character in square A wants to travel (walk, fly, climb, skip, whatever) to square B.
How much movement does that require?
10' of movement to move from A to B. Correct.
How much space do X & B take up? The answer is also 10', I hope.Therefore you can run 10' in just X & B, enough to get your running start at the pit.
Yes. Beginning at A, you move 5ft into X, and then 10ft into B.
For some reason I thought you were disagreeing with that.
If you're in A and want to move to B, it takes 10' of movement.
But X & B, by themselves, even if there is no A, but a wall there or something, are enough space to get a 10' running start. Right? There's 10' there. You should be able to run 10' in 10' of distance.
I'm clearly getting a headache from this back and forth, so if you're trying to subtly suggest something, I'm missing it.
If you start from A, you have 10ft to gain your running start (going through X and B).
If you start from X, you only have 5ft, insufficient to gain a running start (as you're only going through B).
He's saying he starts at the edge of square X run through X acquiring 5ft of running, then runs through B using 5ft of movement and acquiring another 5ft of running, thus getting 10ft of running. I'm not sure if I agree with it, but this is what he's saying.
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So if you move ten feet, jump a ten foot pit, and then move ten more feet, that's a DC 30 check somehow? Since that's "the distance to be crossed"?You are suggesting that to jump over a 10ft pit, we have to jump the entire 15ftYes. Absolutely. Jumping 10ft doesn't clear anything. "Total distance crossed".
I can only quote the Acrobatics section so many times.
No. And don't do that. You know what I mean.
The DC would be 15.
I really don't, apparently. Because I fail to see how "I move 2 1/2 feet to the edge of the pit, jump a ten foot pit, and move 2 1/2 feet to the middle of the next square" is any different than the other example.
WHAT IS THE DC TO JUMP A 7FT PIT.And land on the other side?
DC 12. Assuming a running start. You're traveling 12ft of distance.
But wait, didn't you say it had to be in 5ft increments? That you couldn't do 12 and had to do all 5ft so 15ft movement. Thus the jump would need to be 15ft to be in the square on the other side of the pit? So shouldn't a 7ft pit is just as hard as a 10ft pit? I'm not seeing how, with what you've said, you're getting DC 12
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He's saying he starts at the edge of square X run through X acquiring 5ft of running, then runs through B using 5ft of movement and acquiring another 5ft of running, thus getting 10ft of running. I'm not sure if I agree with it, but this is what he's saying.
Yikes. Alright. Let's walk through this.[A][X][B][GIANT PIT THAT IS IMMEASURABLE]
Forget jumping at all.
A character in square A wants to travel (walk, fly, climb, skip, whatever) to square B.
How much movement does that require?
10' of movement to move from A to B. Correct.
How much space do X & B take up? The answer is also 10', I hope.Therefore you can run 10' in just X & B, enough to get your running start at the pit.
Yes. Beginning at A, you move 5ft into X, and then 10ft into B.
For some reason I thought you were disagreeing with that.
If you're in A and want to move to B, it takes 10' of movement.
But X & B, by themselves, even if there is no A, but a wall there or something, are enough space to get a 10' running start. Right? There's 10' there. You should be able to run 10' in 10' of distance.
I'm clearly getting a headache from this back and forth, so if you're trying to subtly suggest something, I'm missing it.
If you start from A, you have 10ft to gain your running start (going through X and B).
If you start from X, you only have 5ft, insufficient to gain a running start (as you're only going through B).
This is why "edge", "middle", "center", "1ft", "2.5ft" and the like need to be avoided.
They only complicate and distract from the basic question at hand.
They are answerable, but only after we can figure out the answer using the grid system.
Everything after that is cake.
Since when did 'the distance to be crossed' = 'the distance to be crossed + the distance to land + an arbitrary amount to comply with a granular movement system'?
He's saying he starts at the edge of square X run through X acquiring 5ft of running, then runs through B using 5ft of movement and acquiring another 5ft of running, thus getting 10ft of running. I'm not sure if I agree with it, but this is what he's saying.
Yikes. Alright. Let's walk through this.[A][X][B][GIANT PIT THAT IS IMMEASURABLE]
Forget jumping at all.
A character in square A wants to travel (walk, fly, climb, skip, whatever) to square B.
How much movement does that require?
10' of movement to move from A to B. Correct.
How much space do X & B take up? The answer is also 10', I hope.Therefore you can run 10' in just X & B, enough to get your running start at the pit.
Yes. Beginning at A, you move 5ft into X, and then 10ft into B.
For some reason I thought you were disagreeing with that.
If you're in A and want to move to B, it takes 10' of movement.
But X & B, by themselves, even if there is no A, but a wall there or something, are enough space to get a 10' running start. Right? There's 10' there. You should be able to run 10' in 10' of distance.
I'm clearly getting a headache from this back and forth, so if you're trying to subtly suggest something, I'm missing it.
If you start from A, you have 10ft to gain your running start (going through X and B).
If you start from X, you only have 5ft, insufficient to gain a running start (as you're only going through B).
This is why "edge", "middle", "center", "1ft", "2.5ft" and the like need to be avoided.
They only complicate and distract from the basic question at hand.
They are answerable, but only after we can figure out the answer using the grid system.
Everything after that is cake.
And people are advocating that the grid is only calculated after you've moved using ft and finding what square you're in at the end. Thus making SKR's examples work. Jumping a 5ft pit with a 10 standing long jump. while stile ending up 10ft away.
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WHAT IS THE DC TO JUMP A 7FT PIT.And land on the other side?
DC 12. Assuming a running start. You're traveling 12ft of distance.
Wait again.
Why a 12' distance. You're standing in square A, which is part floor and 2' of pit. You jump from there over B, which is all pit and land in C, which is floor again.
By your argument that should be DC 10, since you're moving 2 squares.
If you think you have to Start in the square before A, then it would be 15, 3 squares.How do you get 12?
Again, this is why I dislike odd numbers for this.
Traveling 15ft, jumping over a 10ft pit, would require a DC 15 Acrobatics check.
Distance = DC
Traveling 12ft, jumping over a 7ft pit, would require a DC 12 Acrobatics check.
Distance = DC
You have to count the square you land in. That's where you end your jump. That's where the Olympic committee draws the line in the sand. That's the distance of your jump.
You don't count the square you started in. You count the square you end in. Just like any other mode of movement.
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I think most of us understand each other's postion, we just don't agree with it. Time to step back, and get everyone you know to FAQ this.
Does anyone have any paizo published material that has both a pit and a jump DC? not that authors haven't screwed up DCs before, but it would at least help.