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OK a Sorcerer knows a 1st level spell wishing to share with a Wizard.
The Sorcerer is a follower of Nethys so can prepare Imbue with Spell Ability.
The Sorcerer does that and allows the Wizard to cast the 1st level spell. Now the Wizard has the spell prepared and can put it in the Spellbook.
OK, so make the Wizard do a spellcraft roll. Any Wizard worth his salt can make that on a 1st or 2nd level spell.
1) Please cite how a Sorcerer who follows Nethys gets the spell Imbue with Spell Ability.
2) Assuming #1, please cite how a Sorcerer who follows Nethys gets around the clause that states that only Cleric spells (of certain schools) can be transferred.
Due to the possible limitations, it may be easier to go with a traditional scroll route - sorcerer with scribe scroll gives scroll to wizard. Wizard tries to convert scroll into spell knowledge (destroying scroll in the process).
It's more costly, yet clearly supported by RAW.
But can the Wizard scribe it?
The three listed ways to add spells to a wizard's spellbook are;
1.Spells Gained at a New Level
2.Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
3.Independent Research
I don't think this works. Normally in order to have a spell prepared (B), you must prepare it from a written source (A). Normally A leads to B, but here we're skipping straight to B and I'm not sure that B necessarily leads to A. Now with a spell prepared (B) you can scribe a scroll of it (C). A scroll could be used for option 2 up above leading us to A again.
A->B->C->A->...
So I think, technically, by RAW the wizard would have to scribe the scroll before copying that into the spellbook, you can't go backwards up the stream but it does loop around.
Now is it reasonable to let B lead to A without stopping by C first? That's up to GM discretion.
It might be relevant so I will just mention, under replacing lost spellbooks it says:
" A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would."
I know this is a slightly different scenario, but it does touch on writing a spell you have prepared into a spellbook.
It might be relevant so I will just mention, under replacing lost spellbooks it says:
" A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would."
I know this is a slightly different scenario, but it does touch on writing a spell you have prepared into a spellbook.
Thank you, I should have looked down a section.
Ignore the conclusion of my last post, there is in fact a proscribed method of going directly from B to A.
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KestrelZ - This is Organized play, so no Scribe Scroll for PC.
For the rest of you.
I am using Hero Labs that says it is possible. I can't find in the rules where that is allowed, maybe that is me jumping the gun. It is probably in some obscure place in the books I have not found.
But OK, let us presume instead of Sorcerer, is is a Cleric that does this, and the spell is Detect Magic. OK?
Same question?
Hero Labs is not a substitute for the rules, if this is organized play you will need to show in the rules where it allows you to do this.
PRD says it's a Cleric/Oracle/Warpriest-only spell, since they all use the same spell list.
Unless there's been some major nonsense going on here, I don't see how you could get a Sorcerer to do that
A Samsaran Druid, Inquisitor, Paladin, Ranger, or Shaman, sure.
But a Sorcerer is just right-out not gonna happen.
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In any case, you'll be hard-pressed to find a DM that would let you transfer Cleric/Oracle/Warpriest-only spells over to a Wizard just 'cause they got hit by Imbue with Spell Ability, even if the Wizard could make a Spellcraft Check on the spell.
A nice DM would let the Wizard learn a spell that's ALSO on the Wizard's spell list, maybe, though. A stricter DM would probably not let you learn a spell from it, however.
chbgraphicarts -
Thanks, but this still amounts to a big question mark.
How 'bout this - in PFS, no way in Hell or R'lyeh will a DM let you learn a Cleric spell.
And if somehow you trick/convince one DM into letting you do that, other DMs will call this out as illegal and not let you know/use the spell.
Wizards cannot learn spells not on their spell list at all.
DMs may houserule this for home games, but that's a pure houserule - it's clear in the rules that a Wizard can only learn spells listed on the Wizard Spell List in the CRB or other books.
If the Cleric spell can't be cited as appearing on any Wizard spell list, then it's illegal/impossible for a Wizard to learn it by the base rules.
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chbgraphicarts -
Thanks, but this still amounts to a big question mark.How 'bout this - in PFS, no way in Hell or R'lyeh will a DM let you learn a Cleric spell.
Wizards cannot learn spells not on their spell list at all.
DMs may houserule this for home games, but that's a pure houserule - it's clear in the rules that a Wizard can only learn spells listed on the Wizard Spell List in the CRB or other books.
If the Cleric spell can't be cited as appearing on any Wizard spell list, then it's illegal/impossible for a Wizard to learn it by the base rules.
OK, Detect Magic is ON THE WIZARD SPELL LIST. So is Magic Weapon, Obscuring Mist, Infernal Healing, plus a bucketload of other spells, including some stat bump spells.
So, after a cascade of responses that evade the question, I ask again!
Jokem, the question is moot until you show how Imbue with Spell Ability can be cast by a sorcerer, that is your first problem.
Assuming you do get Imbue with Spell Ability, AND it is on the Wizard list AND you grant it...then MAYBE you can do this. But it probably wont work in PFS.
Why? because you have to show that you can have Imbue with Spell Ability as a Sorcerer in a PFS approved resource.
So, until you stop evading the please cite the rule part, there is really not much to discuss in the rules forum.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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KestrelZ - This is Organized play, so no Scribe Scroll for PC.
Then I suggest you stop, because this is very far into the table variance world.
Look up book and page for each of these steps and we can advise:
What rule allows you get Imbue with Spell ability as a Sorcerer.
What rule allows you to ignore the "Only cleric spells" in the spell.
What rule allows you to write a spell you can cast into your spellbook.
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Under the spell book replacement rules, a wizard can scribe a spell into his book that he had prepared.That's the thing. A spell gained through Imbue Spell ability is not a spell that the wizard has prepared. He's been granted the spell... a major difference. It's not in one of his spell slots, he doesn't even cast it with his own caster level. In all respects, he is in the exact same position that Joe the Fighter would be if the spell had been imbued onto him.
It is a pretty fine point to say the Wizard does not have the spell prepared from Imbue with Spell Ability, since in every respect it acts just like a prepared spell. And the wording of Imbue with Spell Ability does not use the word 'granted', just transfer prepared spells. So before the casting the Cleric has the spell prepared, and after it is the Wizard who has the spell prepared.
Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook.
It does not say the Wizard actually has to have prepared the spell himself, just that he already has a spell prepared.
Even if he qualifies as having it prepared, he still doesn't have written material to LEARN it from. Until he learns it, he cannot write it.
Replacing and Copying Spellbooks section assumes he is replacing a spell he has learned.
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Even if he qualifies as having it prepared, he still doesn't have written material to LEARN it from. Until he learns it, he cannot write it.
Replacing and Copying Spellbooks section assumes he is replacing a spell he has learned.
I can understand that is one way to interpret it, but it does not SAY that. I would say it is reasonable to require a Spellcraft check to 'learn' the spell acquired this way, but the rules do not say that either.
_Ozy_, how is it wrong that it assumes he is replacing a spell he has learned? That is exactly what is written when he creates his spellbook.
Jokem, actually it does.
What is the normal method (the one the book assumes) for having a spell memorized? He memorizes it from his spellbook.
How is it in his spellbook? He deciphers the writing, learns it, then he can write it down.
Until he learns it he cannot write it down. It even states that this is the same procedure for learning a spell. Ie, go look at those rules.
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook.
Learning a spell is the pre-requisite for writing it down. Until you learn it you cannot write it. Now, if you had learned it and put it in your spellbook, then a cleric gives it to you via Imbue, THEN you can write it down.
Edit, to put this another way: you are taking the RAW entirely out of context. The context is replacing or copying your spellbook. Not learning a brand new spell. Until you figure out how to learn a spell without written material you cannot write it down.
Edit 2: Blood Transcription would work, it specifically provides an exemption for learning it, but you have to kill the spellcaster and it is an evil spell.
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@Sorcerer + Imbue with Spell Ability - Wizard and Sorcerer worshippers of Nethys gain the ability to prepare/know it as a fourth level spell. Source: Inner Sea Gods p107
@Wizard getting spells from Sorcerers - Using the rules for Cooperative Crafting and have the Sorcerer provide the 'spell' component to a scroll of X, then have the Wizard write it. Sadly, since this seems to be for pfs ...
This works, if all else fails.
_Ozy_, actually, it does...it SPECIFICALLY states that it uses the procedure for learning a spell. It then ADDS an alternate method of writing the spell. It does not alter the learning part. Since it has not altered the learning part that part must still be in effect.
Yes, the rules explicitly allow a wizard to prepare a spell from someone else's spellbook AFTER learning it.
Yes, he can copy a spell IF he has learned it.
1) Does the Replacing and Copying section state that this uses the procedure for learning a spell? Yes
2) Does the procedure for learning a spell require that you must learn the spell before writing it? Yes
3) Does the Replacing and Copying section provide an alternate source for writing it? Yes.
4) Does the Replacing and Copying section remove that requirement? No
5) Can you use Imbue with Spell to replace a spell you have already learned? Yes.
6) Can you use Imbue with Spell.. to replace a spell you have NOT already learned? No. Why? Because the procedure for learning a spell requires that you must learn the spell before writing it.
I really don't see how this can be any clearer. You keep quoting one line without considering the whole of the rules.
Lessah, thank you for the reference.
You're missing the main fact that just because a spell is on both the cleric and wizard lists doesn't mean the other can use it.
A DIVINE spell of Dispel Magic is UNUSABLE by a wizard. Likewise, an Arcane spell of Dispel Magic is unusable by a divine caster.
So if Imbue with Spell Ability can only grant divine spells, the wizard is in effect trying to put a divine spell into his spellbook.
It is entirely possible he could do so. And then he'd have a clerical prayer in his spellbook that he can't use, because he's not a divine caster.
===Aelryinth
_Ozy_, yes, there are specific exceptions, and nowhere in the Replacing and Copying section does it provide a specific exception to having learned the spell previously.
In fact, since the norm is that a wizard is going to have learned the spell that he has memorized wouldn't it be reasonable that they would not need to provide such an exception?
Summary: this is a corner case, talk to your GM, but in the case of PFS you still have to learn the spell in order to write it because the Replacing and Copying section references those rules.
Correction _Ozy_: the rules indicate yes, if he has learned it previously because he must still learn the spell and to learn a spell requires a written source and a check unless a specific exception is provided otherwise (such as Blood Transcription).
Let me ask a question, can you please point to the line that provides an exception to learning a spell in the Replacing and Copying Spellbooks section?
I have pointed to the line that states it uses the learning a spell rules. Now we need the exception so that it does what you say it does.
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@Sorcerer + Imbue with Spell Ability - Wizard and Sorcerer worshippers of Nethys gain the ability to prepare/know it as a fourth level spell. Source: Inner Sea Gods p107
@Wizard getting spells from Sorcerers - Using the rules for Cooperative Crafting and have the Sorcerer provide the 'spell' component to a scroll of X, then have the Wizard write it. Sadly, since this seems to be for pfs ...
This works, if all else fails.
Thanks for the reference re: Inner Sea Gods.
_Ozy_, so, when I say that the intent is that this replaces copying only with the premise that you have learned the spell to which you say that is not what RAW says but when you say that the intent is separate then I am supposed to accept your word over RAW?
Lets be clear, one more time.
The rules state that it uses the procedure for learning a spell.
The rules then provide an alternative method for copying a spell (which is a different section than learning a spell).
Can you provide anything that states that the procedure for learning a spell is not followed despite the RAW?
Until you do, I think we are at an impasse, the RAW is pretty clear, you have to follow the learning a spell rules.
The learning a spell rules does not reference learning a spell from a prepared spell, only from written sources.
I'm having a bit of trouble finding the section called 'Learning a spell' can you quote the specific rules you're referring to?
A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.
A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
Starting Spells (See Spellbooks below): A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).
Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook.The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast.
SPELLBOOKS A magus must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook except for read magic, which all magi can prepare from memory. A magus begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level magus spells plus three 1st-level magus spells of his choice. The magus also selects a number of additional 1st-level magus spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to his spellbook. At each new magus level, he gains two new magus spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new magus level) for his spellbook. At any time, a magus can also add spells found in other spellbooks to his own.
A magus can learn spells from a wizard’s spellbook, just as a wizard can from a magus’s spellbook. The spells learned must be on the magus spell list, as normal. An alchemist can learn formulae from a magus’s spellbook, if the spells are also on the alchemist spell list. A magus cannot learn spells from an alchemist.
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d20pfsrd section for Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
Spells Gained at a New Level
Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll
A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
Independent Research
A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
Table: Spell Level and Writing Costs
Spell Level Writing Cost
0 5 gp
1 10 gp
2 40 gp
3 90 gp
4 160 gp
5 250 gp
6 360 gp
7 490 gp
8 640 gp
9 810 gpWriting a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, he can record it into his spellbook.
Time: The process takes 1 hour per spell level. Cantrips (0 levels spells) take 30 minutes to record.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has 100 pages.
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on Table: Spell Level and Writing Costs. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.
Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would. If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.
Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
DEFINING "PREPARED" SPELLS:
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
Since, as you said, the Magus and Wizard both use Spellbooks (and the Arcanist does, as well), they follow the same rules for Adding Spells to a Spellbook.