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Had a good run of this last night, and the Gathlains and Mistress Koi made for some fantastic NPCs.
Much to my horror, I realized once I got to the store that my printer had completely screwed up the player handouts and didn't print any of the text. The players ended up getting hand-written poems.
OMG that sucks. It sounds like you rolled with it, though!
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OMG that sucks. It sounds like you rolled with it, though!Had a good run of this last night, and the Gathlains and Mistress Koi made for some fantastic NPCs.
Much to my horror, I realized once I got to the store that my printer had completely screwed up the player handouts and didn't print any of the text. The players ended up getting hand-written poems.
I did, I'm just glad I have halfway-decent handwriting.
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Ran it twice today. I'll probably give another read through before writing a review (I'm running it again next Sunday), but my immediate thoughts:
First and foremost, this is a great scenario; probably my favorite 1-5 since Night March. There are several opportunities for fun role-playing. However, there are some gotchas:
1. It's easy -- and understandable -- for the players to get hung up on solving the riddle. Be prepared to give them a gentle push.
2. Both tables asked about the dare which sent Virml into the archives, so at least have a name or two ready in case.
3. Both tables also asked about the name of the fey lord who trapped Caught within the scroll. Have something ready for this as well.
4. The map. Oh gods, the map. Drawing it was bad enough, but we had a lot of "is that a legal square?" and "how many squares to go through a diagonal of deep bog?" (six, I think).
5. A few of the monsters do not appear in the appendix -- refresh yourself on the ju-ju zombie, void worm, and nixie before running.
6. Be ready for players who don't want to put Caught back in the scroll. By my reading, the easiest way to get the 2nd prestige is to re-imprison someone for the crime of being arrogant, meaning you might as well toss Kreighton in with him...
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Here, unbidden, is the scenario author's tongue-in-cheek explanation of why Caught can adopt Shaine's elven appearance.
As a master riddler with a high Bluff score, Caught is keenly interested in finding and exploiting any loopholes he can. As the scroll that contained his prison wandered from library to library throughout the centuries, Caught found himself shelved next to many philosophical and legal texts...and also, quite improbably, a copy of the Advanced Race Guide.
Much like many users upon the Paizo forums, Caught noticed the ambiguous language in the "Realistic Likeness" feat, and decided that, until an opponent can prove conclusively that users of the feat cannot adopt elven form, he will go right ahead and do so when it pleases him (or delights the PCs).
Rules lawyers at the table who object to his form should therefore attempt a Diplomacy or Intimidate check, opposed by Caught's Bluff skill. If they succeed, the kitsune will accept the ruling gracefully, and adopt the most common RAI.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Here, unbidden, is the scenario author's tongue-in-cheek explanation of why Caught can adopt Shaine's elven appearance.
As a master riddler with a high Bluff score, Caught is keenly interested in finding and exploiting any loopholes he can. As the scroll that contained his prison wandered from library to library throughout the centuries, Caught found himself shelved next to many philosophical and legal texts...and also, quite improbably, a copy of the Advanced Race Guide.
Much like many users upon the Paizo forums, Caught noticed the ambiguous language in the "Realistic Likeness" feat, and decided that, until an opponent can prove conclusively that users of the feat cannot adopt elven form, he will go right ahead and do so when it pleases him (or delights the PCs).
Rules lawyers at the table who object to his form should therefore attempt a Diplomacy or Intimidate check, opposed by Caught's Bluff skill. If they succeed, the kitsune will accept the ruling gracefully, and adopt the most common RAI.
It's a plot device that allows this scenario to function, and in that I have no problem using it in this situation and hand waving any player concerns as beyond the scope of the scenario explanation.
If pressed, I'll cite the former tale of The Fox's deeds, and the acquisition of his wish.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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When we realized that the first Virml might not have been the real Virml, I said "well, most disguise magic can't make an exact likeness, but it's a very good start for one, so if you're also skilled in mundane disguise..."
Then I got an Intelligence check from the GM to see if I could remember enough about V1 to know if he was the same as V2, and tanked the check.
Problem solved :)
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I ran this over the weekend. It's a fun scenario. The group liked the mix of role playing and combat, even though none of the combats were difficult for them. I think the cavalier was most scared by the possibility of a tooth fairy taking one of his wolf's teeth.
As soon as they realized it was Virml in the cage, they figured out the deception, and the were immediately suspicious of "Kreighton Shaine" when they got back upstairs. They took a while before actually attacking, though, trying to trick him into admitting who he was. Eventually I had "Shaine" order them to keep working on the flooding problem while he would go to the grand lodge and tell them Virml was an imposter. When the group realized he was about to walk out with two more pieces of the scroll, they attacked, starting with a trip. From the floor and surrounded, Caught cast his Confusion and got all but two of the group (and the crocodile). It wasn't enough of a distraction for him to get away, though, and almost backfired when the croc took a bite out of him. The group ended up knocking him unconscious before he could surrender.
As someone described above, they almost immediately placed all of the scroll pieces together and said it spells Caught! So Caught got sucked back in before they could even really talk to him.
They went back out to see Mistress Koi, who had gone back to flooding the place. Before they got too far into talking with her, someone said "We caught your fox. " So I had the portal open back up. Mistress Koi rounded up all the remaining inhabitants and headed home.
I have to say, I wouldn't mind more scenarios like this.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I really enjoyed the scenario, but while playing it I didn't realize that unlike the other characters, Caught is "3D" - the rest are basically caricatures, but he's a real person.
I haven't read the scenario yet, but I'm interested in how a GM might convey that Caught is actually "real"?
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I really enjoyed the scenario, but while playing it I didn't realize that unlike the other characters, Caught is "3D" - the rest are basically caricatures, but he's a real person.
I haven't read the scenario yet, but I'm interested in how a GM might convey that Caught is actually "real"?
That's a very interesting question (says the author, who of course finds all questions about his work interesting). I have a suggestion that concerns motivations.
All the "riddlekin" characters have singular motivations: the gathlains want to fish, the grodair wants her prisoner back, Gormandelle wants teeth, etc. But Caught can afford to be a bit more complex in his motives. He is obsessed with the riddle that imprisoned him, so most of his scripted actions involve trying to confront the First World fey who posed the riddle in the first place. But he has also just escaped from centuries of imprisonment, so he may want to savour his freedom for awhile. Even just talking to the PCs is probably a treat, after putting up with the scripted simpletons in the scroll. He could even try to recruit the PCs to his cause.
Caught is also volatile. Other NPCs in this scenario will either leap right into combat, or else follow the PCs' lead. But Caught might get bored of talking and decide to surprise the PCs by attacking -- or he might call a halt in the midst of combat just to swap riddles for a few rounds. Remember, he recently "befriended" (ie. fascinated) Virml, but then a few minutes later, he left him in a cage to be tortured and drowned. Even he doesn't know which way he'll leap next.
GMs should make decisions about how to play Caught based partly on the amount of time remaining. He could be a font of secrets and lore, or an elaborate flatterer and liar...but if you're pressed for time, then it's OK to reduce him to his narrative role as the PCs' quarry.
I hope that helps!
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Leiden
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All the "riddlekin" characters have singular motivations: the gathlains want to fish, the grodair wants her prisoner back, Gormandelle wants teeth, etc. But Caught can afford to be a bit more complex in his motives. He is obsessed with the riddle that imprisoned him, so most of his scripted actions involve trying to confront the First World fey who posed the riddle in the first place.
This came through while reading the scenario and I tried to run the characters accordingly, but it's good to have it emphasized.
Loved the whole feel of the scenario.
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Excellent offering, looking forward to running it this weekend. I just suck at riddles.
I have an irrational hatred for most of the PFS scenarios that are riddle-centric and only ran this one due to some player requests
that being said, after running this I appreciate the way the riddle in this story is used to provide a framework for the story itself rather than just as a solution to gaining a prestige point
really enjoyed my experience, great whimsical scenario with a unique tone, and augmented by having had a great group at my table
two knocks, however:
that sub-basement map is a muddled mess of "can this square be occupied", "can I fit through here" and from me as the GM, "why is this so unnecessarily diagonal and complicated in shape"
my other knock is the write-up of the Dictionarium room, which has a tone taken that it is really bad if the PCs flood this room, yet doing so actually makes things much easier throughout the rest of the sub-basement (in addition to skipping this room potentially has the PCs miss out on gp and a couple of semi-useful items)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I do think maps should be designed with some principles in mind;
- Avoid unnecessary diagonals. If rotating the map 45 degrees reduces the number of diagonals, please do so.
- Try to use curves that can be plotted with a compass (i.e. circles or partial circles) instead of others; this makes drawing maps a lot faster, and hand-drawn maps will look a lot better.
- Try as much as possible to make it clear whether a square can be occupied or not. If you cover a square 50%, for example with a diagonal line from corner to corner, it's quite unclear. If you shift the wall a little bit, squares will be covered 75% and 25% alternatingly, and it's clear to everyone if you can move into that square.
I think in most cases, you can achieve the visual effect of the map while also keeping to these guidelines for useability.
This map... the idea of the butterfly shape is wonderful. But it was really annoying having corridors with a width of 0.5 + 1 + 0.5 in combats, because of diagonals.
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2. The author HATES foreign GMs who have to translate the poems and plays on words into other languages. ;)
Yeah, that was a fun thing to notice when starting to prep for the scenario the evening before the game.
With a rhyming dictionary and a working knowledge of translation theory and poetry forms, it wasn't all that difficult. The important things are the translation of Caught's name so it retains the same number of letters and keeping the important stuff in the poems – namely, the suggestions of what the scraps are capable of summoning and the overarching theme of eating. Rhymes, puns and metre are less crucial, especially since languages have their own rhythms and melodies and native poetry forms and what works in one language may come across as contrived in another. For instance, the haiku looks kinda off in English and doing iambic pentametre in Finnish is a bit like going against the grain of the language.
Incidentally, if someone needs the poems in Finnish, I'll be glad to supply my translation.
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You do realize every single Finnish person who has interacted with an English-speaker has heard this joke, right? :PFirst of all, I'm not sure it actually qualifies as a joke; I have a pun problem.
Second, I did not realize. Sorry for being "that guy."
It's alright. It just probably incited a groan and roll of the eyes instead of the chuckle you were anticipating (it did in my case). No hard feelings.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Disclaimer: I made this translation in a hurry, it is far from perfect.
I read the orginial text to my players followed by the my translation, and the worked with the English pieces to solve the riddle (pro tip don't let the players actually read your translation) that part didn't went quite as well, recognizing Cought as a name isn't easy, one of my player said pretty much the same thing, as I did "It can't be Cought right?" when I played it.
They tried to solve the riddle, but were unable to do so in the end, the real answer.. didn't make them happy.
Möge der Gewinner Gold tragen, währen der Verlierer nen Besen frisst
Nichts wissend, außer dem, waß er schon wusste nicht zu wissen
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Mürrisch!Mürrisch war die Eule mit dem Albatross
Dass dieser den Großteil der Fische gefangen hat
Also fischte die Eule tiefer und erwachte den Schläfer
Und er machte aus den beiden Gefederten ein Gericht.
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Wir haben’s gehört, dass der Wurm vom Vogel erwischt wurde,
Der ach so früh am Morgen auf steht,
Aber was wird aus dem Vogel der, verotten und vergraben
zum Essen für den Wurm der weiter wurmt wird?
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“Ungenießbar! spuckte der fätte, am Fleisch gezogene Wurm
Als er sich an den Söhnen des Richters labte
Dann machte er aus dem Vater ein recht feine Sauce
Um dadurch zu zeigen, dass es am Ende nicht einmal Hass übrig bleibt.
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Gormandelle, die gefräßige Dame,
Verlor ihre Zähne und nahm die ihrer Töchter,
Watete dann ins Wasser um Wasser zu lassen
Als dann Sir Krokodil angriff,
nutze Sie seine Zähne und Biss ihn zurück.
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Habt ihr gehört von dem Schwert der ein Koch ist für allerlei Fisch?
Habt Ihr gesehen wie seine Seebrasse ein jedes Gericht erhebt?
Wagst du dich seinen Aal zu stehlen oder aus der Pfanne die Fischroggen zu rauben?
Tragt ihm auf euch die Karte so schnell wie her kann zu bringen!
Aber duelliert euch nicht mit dem Schwert um feinstes Filet
Oder er serviert euch morgen kalt als Vorspeiße!
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Das Krokokodil
öffnet grinsend sein Maul
So dass die Vögelchen hinein fliegen und sich dort bedienen
an Fischeingeweiden und Krümel
und den Knochen Ihrer Kumpel,
die dort letzte Woche verschwunden sind.
The map didn't make things easier, and in combination with the effects of the bog, the fact that I had 7 players, didn't help them much.
And after my second attempt at drawing it, I began to realize that I would never be happy with my drawn version... so I printed it:Picture of the map in the lodge in Frankfurt am Main
That said, my biggest problem with the scenario, would be the missing bird in the low tier (we ended up lowering the tier after... well never mind, but they fought the bird for a couple of rounds and then it magically never happened), a weaker version of the bird would have been appreciated. (And maybe a bigger chance to have a fight against the Swordfish).
PS: My players asked, an didn't have a great answer ... who is the judge ?
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Leiden
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Ironically enough, Ascalaphus ended up accidentally drowning part of the map while we were rounding up. The map I had drawn for when I ran it a few weeks ago!!
Also: The Gormandelle encounter was really nasty this time... You really need to be creative (and/or have a bit of luck).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The Gormandelle encounter, basically, went wrong.
3/5 characters failed the save. The remaining two were level 2's playing up, with ice-cold dice on anything except will saves.
The others were basically reduced to waiting it out, and it took 1.5 hours of no-resave misery. I really don't like these fairy fail-once-never-act-again song abilities.
I pulled 14 teeth; the fighter who lost only two teeth still lost 16HP from bleed damage.
Of course, in hindsight the solution was blindingly obvious; just plug your compatriots' ears with your fingers.
I'm glad my players did like the adventure on the whole, but this scene was a disaster.
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One thing that did work well was psyching the players a bit about the rising waters. I put a measuring cup on the table and now and then added some water, especially when they spent time to search rooms, or talked to Mistress Koi. Not a lot at once, but enough to make them increasingly worried about time. Coincidentally, the cup was 95% full when they had their final confrontation with Caught.
Of course, that's when I accidentally flooded the map..
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Caught is a rather exceptional kitsune, and although I acknowledge the oversight in his being unable to take the form of an elf using the Realistic Likeness feat, the story is made more interesting for the exception. Ultimately, he could take anyone else's form and still accomplish approximately the same result, as the second deception is based principally on his appearing as not-a-kitsune rather than appearing as anyone in particular.
I would go with the transformation as written in the scenario unless you're especially concerned about the exception. In that case, Caught can easily enough take the form of a random agent or even Zarta Dralneen without ruining the story.
Played this recently and when we saw Shaine in the scriptorium our first reaction as players was "It can't be the fox, kitsune can only take human form."
That is what is so dangerous about this little slip-up. I'm fine with an NPC being able to do extraordinary things, but not when it can get in the way of solving the issue.
Do you or the author have a suggestion on how to present information so that players know that Caught is extraordinary and thus not as tightly tied to the rules? That is really all that is required here.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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Played this recently and when we saw Shaine in the scriptorium our first reaction as players was "It can't be the fox, kitsune can only take human form."
That is what is so dangerous about this little slip-up. I'm fine with an NPC being able to do extraordinary things, but not when it can get in the way of solving the issue.
Do you or the author have a suggestion on how to present information so that players know that Caught is extraordinary and thus not as tightly tied to the rules? That is really all that is required here.
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Contributor
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Auke, I think you're actually the closest as to how to properly handle this.
Caught isn't turning into Kreighton Shane, he's turning into a human version of Kreighton Shane, then using his Disguise skill to become an elf.
Actually, he can't do that either because Realistic Likeness states that you need to see a human in order to precisely mimic its features with the feat. Caught can't transform into a human version of Kreighton Shane because he's never seen a human version of Kreighton Shane; even if such a person existed, the first humanoids he's met in several thousand years are Kreighton, Zarla, and the PCs. Unless one of your PCs is a perfect, human replica of Kreighton Shane, this is an equally incorrect use of the rules.
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Im going to put this on record.
I really enjoyed playing in this one. The Tone of the scenario, the puzzle/riddle, the encounters.. all just seemed to 'click' for me. I think some of the other people with me .. didnt as much because it was so .. different. To me though it was nicely paced, contained ( I loved contained scenarios) and just plain different to what has come before this season (and not plain at all!)
As a DM, I grew to love this scenario even more. I ran it as a 4 player 4-5 table. I loved how the monsters encounteres meshed up .. sort off with the scrolls, the environmental impacts , Mistress Koi (although I think a few people were annoyed having to repeat themeselves time and time again)
The tooth fairy fight was a highlight as half the party were captivated.
All in all Id like to congratulate the author and editors for making this scenario so repeatable. Id love to revisit with a CORE character some day.
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Ran this Saturday. I highly recommend a detailed prep for this scenario. Due to unavoidable circumstances I was unable to do a detailed read-through and the amount of important details scattered through the PDF is stunning. Some things to note if you're running this on the fly:
1) There are two big maps. Drawing them on the fly is a pain, but manageable.
2) Find out where each of the scroll scraps are, and make a note of it. It's a PITA to have to search for each one mid-game.
3) The dialogue and motivation for each of the fey in the archvies is a bit lacking. They give you a general idea of what they say, but "Tell the players the whole story" and nothing else, in a situation with not a lot of prep time will leave you grasping for information. Only way to get this is to read the primer information, the grey side-bars, and understand exactly what each character has been up to. This really gave me a lot of trouble. Give too much and it'll be too easy, not enough, and your players will be left wondering what's going on.
4) It's easier if you're playing down, but check the stat blocks of things. They're all pretty wild critters and all have some special abilities.
5) This is a doozy. Read the riddle and check to see who knows what about the riddle and it's role in the scenario for when the PCs decide to talk. I think most of the valuable information available to the PCs centers around what the riddle scroll is and what it does.
So in conclusion, what I'm saying is if you don't have enough time to prep for this, you might want to pull out something else. This is VERY ROUGH to run without sufficient prep time.
That said, by the end I saw where they were going with this and I loved it. I had a hell of a time running it, but I loved the flavor, I loved the secondary task for Dark Archive members (and screaming whenever the PC holding the book opened their mouth), and I loved the riddle. My players were patient with me as I hunted for answers to their questions, and they all seemed to really enjoy the particularly strange encounters and the hilarity that ensued once my single Dark Archive member got his hands on the book (particularly once he got singled out by Shane about the book; watching a player attempt to mime a bluff check is amusing to watch to say the least). Luckily he rolled a 20 on the diplomacy check and managed to get Shane to leave the book to him.
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Hi Scott, What do you do when you draw a table of characters that have no skills and a max intelligence of 10.
One of the characters figured out that the sly fox was the sly fox when he was in the scriptorum as the real master of scrolls said he had to meet with Vaslin to organize a cleanup of the overflow archive. Truth beats lies every time. Then the dummies ah PC's pounded the sly fox into goo and were almost killed by the dire croc who had barbarian num nums. the party missed the tooth fairy fight as they did not go to that area of the archives.
I had a hard time interrupting the maps. Please refrain from drawing maps set at 45 degree angles they are hard to draw if you wnat to put them in a mod cordinate with the part of pazio that does flip mats.
Hint this would make a great flip mat.
I was very disapointed with the treasure that you put in this scenario
there were many unique items hat the PC's could have found but you just stuck mundane carpola items for treasure. Cool items would have been a misfiled book that told the society where to get the intelligent broken sword. Knighton could of had the PC's turning the overflow archive over to find an expensive spell book that the sly fox had swiped. Zarta could have had the PC's looking for some bit of esoterica in the archive.
THe Owl and the Albatross were great.
Hi Scott, What do you do when you draw a table of characters that have no skills and a max intelligence of 10.
Did your players have a good time? I tried to design the adventure to work equally well as puzzle/RP or hack-and-slash, and although I probably inclined towards the former, it sounds like you were still able to provide some of the latter for your heavy-hitting PCs.
I freely admit that I took a big risk by placing the PCs' quarry in front of them right at the start of the scenario. But the PCs should still have ample motivation to explore the Understacks; not only does Mistress Koi demand the return of all six scroll fragments before she agrees to clean up the archives, but there's also a prisoner (Virml) in need of rescuing. If you need to nudge the PCs a bit, you could have Shaine or Dralneen ask what happened to the real Virml, since the one they interviewed turned out to be an imposter.
Sorry you weren't happy with the maps or the treasure. Glad you liked the NPCs! This was my first published scenario, so it helps immensely to know what I need to work on. Thanks for playing!
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Hi Scott, What do you do when you draw a table of characters that have no skills and a max intelligence of 10.Did your players have a good time? I tried to design the adventure to work equally well as puzzle/RP or hack-and-slash, and although I probably inclined towards the former, it sounds like you were still able to provide some of the latter for your heavy-hitting PCs.
I freely admit that I took a big risk by placing the PCs' quarry in front of them right at the start of the scenario. But the PCs should still have ample motivation to explore the Understacks; not only does Mistress Koi demand the return of all six scroll fragments before she agrees to clean up the archives, but there's also a prisoner (Virml) in need of rescuing. If you need to nudge the PCs a bit, you could have Shaine or Dralneen ask what happened to the real Virml, since the one they interviewed turned out to be an imposter.
Sorry you weren't happy with the maps or the treasure. Glad you liked the NPCs! This was my first published scenario, so it helps immensely to know what I need to work on. Thanks for playing!
My only real complaint with this scenario is also the map of the lower level. I appreciate the nod to Desna with the butterfly shape, but I think it could have been done more simply, all the diagonal corridors make figuring out squares difficult, and this is only worsened with the water also slowing movement. I drew out a simplified version of the map when I ran it for my local group, but will take the time to draw it out for my 3 PaizoCon tables.
Overall a great scenario. I think the creatures are quite fun to RP, and I loved running the tooth faeries.
Thanks for the fun scenario. When this was run for me (before I read it, but after I already knew I was scheduled for 3 tables at PaizoCon), I fell in love. I am looking forward to running this for some probably new folks, as I am running CORE tables of it.