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I thought I had read somewhere that drugs are treated as poison but as I am looking at the description it isn't immediately jumping out at me again. I did see in the forum where people were saying that alchemists immunity to poison negates the effects of drugs but I am not sure how that comes into play unless drugs ARE a poison?
Also with immunity to disease would you be able to use drugs without the worry of addiction? Seems a little rule breaky, but I am DEFINITELY feeling rule breaky if that is the case.
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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/drugs
According to the above, addiction is disease. So yes, immunity to disease means no addiction. Drugs are not explicitly called poisons, but follow all the exact same rules and logically seem like they should be, so I would find it hard to rule otherwise. So immunity to poisons means no drug-based fun for you (good or bad).
Not sure which book that link is pulling from, but probably the GameMastery Guide.
As for my opinion, I think that drugs being poisons and addiction being a disease is the most reasonable ruling that doesn't require inventing new concepts entirely (and may still be the most reasonable ruling even then).
It just seems like a way to exploit drugs (RAW) with them NOT being listed as poisons- so that drugs could affect different creatures (like most outsiders are immune to poison)- So opium-ing up the Succubi makes for a much more fun experience for everyone...
And that link is where I was looking at drugs rules and couldn't find the Poison link. I also think they should work like poison, but I think it sucks for alchemists where you WANT the immunity to poisons in play but drugs should remain a viable option for you... I mean, just because you don't want Dragon's Bile turning you into a paralytic mess doesn't mean you aren't interesting in having some fun with Honeydust :(
It is the GameMastery Guide.
Not sure which book that link is pulling from, but probably the GameMastery Guide.
I don't see where is says drugs are poison?
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I don't see where is says drugs are poison?It is the GameMastery Guide.
Not sure which book that link is pulling from, but probably the GameMastery Guide.
It doesn't. It says the addiction is a disease, but does not call the drugs a poison. It does point out how the methods of consuming the drugs are identical to poisons, but seems to avoid calling them poisons on purpose.
I would call them poisons because they are in all but name, and it seems like a cheesy way to get past poison immunity. But that's all opinion: By RAW they are not poisons. (If anyone tries to count them as not-poisons at my game they can still expect some stabbitty.)
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It's one of those iffy topics, as most compounds/chemicals that affect a body, for better or worse, are technically drugs. Immunity to drugs creates more problems than it solves because it opens a can of worms.
In general, DM should only include drugs in a setting if they want them. Drugs can create lots of issues, both roleplaying and mechanically.
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Everything is a poison, depending on the dose.
Even stranger (now that I have looked at every drug listed on the site) is that 2 of them are listed as poisons... which I found odd that they would be in the drug section.
It seems like a suitable strategy for attack would be to use Opium on your weapons... +1d8 temp hp isn't going to compete well with 1d4 CON and WIS damage and it fatigues your target... It is also just SO cheap (25gp). Good way to take out Divine casters, Barbarians/Skalds, and really... anything.
Even stranger (now that I have looked at every drug listed on the site) is that 2 of them are listed as poisons... which I found odd that they would be in the drug section.
It seems like a suitable strategy for attack would be to use Opium on your weapons... +1d8 temp hp isn't going to compete well with 1d4 CON and WIS damage and it fatigues your target... It is also just SO cheap (25gp). Good way to take out Divine casters, Barbarians/Skalds, and really... anything.
Except that the onset for addiction is at least 1 day. And most of the negative effects have an onset of 1 hour or more. In an ongoing storyline, it could be useful against a recurring opponent, but it won't be helpful in combat immediately.
The rules for drugs state: When a character takes a drug, he immediately gains the effects, an amount of ability damage, and must make a Fortitude save to resist becoming addicted to that drug (see Addiction).
Which if used on your weapons to infect enemies with Opium would be a better "poison" than most poisons. If they became addicted then that would be all the better in terms of their incapacitation.
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Are Drugs Poison?
No. Drugs are drugs. Poisons are poisons, and diseases are diseases.
They all follow the "afflictions" game mechanic, but they are different things.
If drugs aren't poisons, then can you coat your weapons without risking exposure? There is no equivalent 'poison use' for drugs.
Sounds like drugs are better poisons than poisons.
I take it from the drugs text that you either can't coat your weapons, or more likely that it follows the same rules for injury poisons (on a "1" you poison yourself.)
Like most rule systems that are added after the core rules and monster books are written, I think it require GM discretion to blend it into the game system in a logical way. I think it would be fair to say that poisons=drugs in terms of effects such as spells and immunities and such, or create spells such as delay drugs, neutralize drugs etc. Either way, it should be consistent and balanced by the GM, not the letter of rules that were written before "drugs" existed in the game system.
Drugs are better poisons than poison, because poison is mostly useless to PCs.
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And most of the negative effects have an onset of 1 hour or more.
That's duration.
Effect: The duration and effect of the drug.
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OPIUM
Type inhaled, ingested, or injury; Addiction major, Fortitude DC 20
Price 25 gp
Effects 1 hour; +1d8 temporary hit points, +2 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saves, fatigue
Damage 1d4 Con and 1d4 Wis damage
Drugs do appear to be better poisons than poisons, especially if they bypass ordinary resistances to poison (which appears to be RAW, maybe not RAI).
As I see it it's a dosage issue. I played around with this a lot in Pirate's Promise. Vreva Jhafae uses poisons at low doses to affect people's judgement, etc. Oil of Tagget is simply a knock out drug, IMHO, but it's listed as a poison.
As far as game play goes, there is one clear paradox if drugs are poisons: the Drunken Master Monk. If alcohol is a poison, he's in trouble when he gets immunity (11th level)...all his DM advantages go down the drain.
So drugs are drugs, and poisons are poisons, but you can kill someone with an overdose of drugs, as you can merely mess with someone using the careful application of poisons.
My two cents.
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As I see it it's a dosage issue. I played around with this a lot in Pirate's Promise. Vreva Jhafae uses poisons at low doses to affect people's judgement, etc. Oil of Tagget is simply a knock out drug, IMHO, but it's listed as a poison.
As far as game play goes, there is one clear paradox if drugs are poisons: the Drunken Master Monk. If alcohol is a poison, he's in trouble when he gets immunity (11th level)...all his DM advantages go down the drain.
So drugs are drugs, and poisons are poisons, but you can kill someone with an overdose of drugs, as you can merely mess with someone using the careful application of poisons.
My two cents.
Being immune to the effects of the alcohol does nothing to his abilities. He gains the benefits for drinking alcohol, not being inebriated by it. Though the thought of a drunken master being immune and totally faking a drunken stupor is pretty hilarious.
Alas, they lose poison immunity as part of the archetype.
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Everything is a poison, depending on the dose.Ah! So Cure Light Wounds is a poison now? ;->
No, but only because the spell doesn't output enough power. Positive energy straight from the source does actually overload and make you explode though.
I am inclined to agree with you. Opium seems to be the best "affliction" in the game.
I also notice that the supplemental material for drugs seems to be lacking (likely because this isn't a SUPER popular part of the PF game) but there are limited feats/traits related to drugs but poison fluff abounds.
Also drug immunity is not possible in the current materials (unless there is some 3rd party stuff I am not aware of?) but poison and disease immunity is fairly common (and not even that expensive).
The issue is that drugs can be abused whether they are considered to be poisons or not poisons.
If they are considered to be poison then they could be weaponized to significant effect, an effect without a save as well (since only addiction gets a save)
If they are not considered to be a poison, then someone with attribute damage immunity could eat them like candy. This could maybe be done even if it was considered to be a poison, except that ability damage immunity is often applied with poison immunity.
What's particularly of note is being something like undead or construct (and presumably other types) where you gain immunity to anything that requires a fortitude save. Drugs don't require a fortitude save though, only the addiction. They are immune to poisons though.
I've said this before quite a while back, but I'll say it again I really think that Paizo needs to re-vamp the whole drugs and poison system.
Namely drugs should require saving throws to use, or at least before receiving the negative effect, have the negative effects be delayed, and should be classified as poison (typically ingested, so that they would not be easily weaponized, although there's that broken poison conversion discovery). Poisons themselves need their balance/utility adjusted, as well as some consistency fixing with regards to some primary/secondary effects that make no sense.
Honestly they should be classified as poisons. Poisons themselves need a SERIOUS buffing in order to be combat effective.
That being said, it's not hard to smear LSD on a knife blade or put cocaine in an smoke grenade (contact/injury, inhaled respectively). They even go as far as to mention those consumption (*cough* delivery) methods.
Without poison conversion I think drugs are some of the only realistic ways to go about using a poison based build.
You could always balance campaigns out with their use because a: They might not be that easy to get a hold of, b: they're most likely contraband in any respectable city.
Pathfinder hasn't declared drugs as poison one way or the other. The Book of Vile Darkness, from 3.5, stated that drugs addictions were a disease, and drug effects were a poison (as neutralize poison and delay poison affected it). So if you were immune to poison, you would never get the "benefit" (and as a GM, I'd say never gain the addiction). If you were immune to disease, you'd be immune to the addiction. Of course, this is all 3.5.
So paladins can't poison people, but it's ok to drug them?
Just a reminder that 'drugs' were added to the game after the paladin class was printed. As I said before, rule systems that are added after the core rules and monster books are written, require GM discretion to blend it into the game system in a logical way.
It's one of those iffy topics, as most compounds/chemicals that affect a body, for better or worse, are technically drugs. Immunity to drugs creates more problems than it solves because it opens a can of worms.
In general, DM should only include drugs in a setting if they want them. Drugs can create lots of issues, both roleplaying and mechanically.
Really though? What game doesn't include alcohol though?
The rules for drugs assume they are a compound a person willingly partakes of and desires to be affected by. Departing from that assumption makes the rules really not very workable.
In particular, one can't assume that just because drugs have a negative effect, they are appropriate to be used as poison. Poisons would typically be very highly concentrated so that even a small exposure is effective, with a drug the active engagement of the partaker makes that necessary.
You probably won't get high from walking past someone smoking a joint.
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Well there are several 3pp offerings:
There's The Red Dragon Inn: Guide to Inns and Taverns (Pathfinder RPG) by SlugFest Games the makers ot the Red Dragon Inn. The free preview Appetizer for it has drinking rules.
And there's Tournaments, Fairs, and Taverns (PFRPG) PDF by EN Publishing.
Also NNW's Scourge: The Deluxe Guide to Disease and Poison (PFRPG) PDF (sadly lacking reviews)
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That disease and poison thing looks cool, but doesn't address drugs at all lol.
Although it does have some cool poisons.
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I am not sure honestly what's the problem with drugs. Person ingesting them receives Fort Save for addiction and immediate effects of a drug, but this doesn't make it even nearly viable in combat. In fact, you would need some sort of injection at least to quickly drug the opponent and even if you did manage to drug him, you can only drug him once per combat since effect and ability damage can be gained only once in shorter time period. The only thing attractive about them is their cost, but it also might risk possible alignment implications and risk being cought by guards.
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Poisoner's gloves, two melee touch attacks for two different drug effects. The save is only for addiction, the immediate effects are automatic.
That's why people are asking for clarification.
A good idea, but poisoner's gloves cost 5000 gold pieces which is hefty sum still and rarely do PC's buy such items. Even if adventurer manages to grab them in mid levels, they can be used 1/day only so it isn't that significant.
I can understand the hype without them having a Saving Throw, but they weren't meant to be used offensively. Strictly RAI and in homebrew way speaking, it wouldn't hurt to grant them a Fortitude Save if used in such way. Poisons for example are generally weak, but they are weak for a reason. Nobody want's their character dying due to a single Failed Saving Throw. Paizo avoided making such effects on purpose.
Opium is an injury type drug, as is Shiver. Meaning it can be administered via weapon strikes (though they have the Syringe Spear now so that is pretty cool too).
Effectively- RAW- I could fill my syringe spear with opium and coat it with Shiver. When I attack- assuming I hit- I end up doing 1d4+1d2 CON dmg, 1d4 Wis dmg, the target has 50% chance of falling asleep, are now fatigued the "benefits" of the drugs would be 1d8 temp hp, +2 FORT saves and a 50% change of being immune to fear. This is all in addition to the regular damage that is applied and doesn't take into account the addiction.
Since the character I made is evil I am not terribly restricted by alignment. And it would just be the one hit that does this but in a campaign where we are facing 15+ HD creatures CON damage is AWESOME!
I don't particularly LIKE the idea of a no save poison in the game (because these things could just as easily be turned against me) but I have also noticed that a large percentage of higher level creatures have Poison immunity, and there don't seem to be many viable methods of increasing the DC of poison meaning that a level 1 alchemist and a level 10 alchemist (with few exceptions) are making basically the same Spider Venom. When I see something with a FORT DC 11 selling at 120gp per dose (assuming I make Black Adder Venom for myself I would have to spend 40 gp) versus buying Opium and playing Doctor knowing that the effect goes off.
Also, I with the idea that drugs are not poisons the different talents and traits and items that boost poisons are not protecting you. Poison Use doesn't keep me from accidentally drugging myself... which is scary, but kinda fun too. Waiting for those Nat 1s to TOTALLY bonk my character.
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I would use dreamtime tea in the syringe spear instead of opium
2d12 minutes of unconsciousness (NOT sleep), no save.
I would say that drugs require a large amount, relative to most poisons, that takes time and effort to consume so can't be delivered through combat.
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I would use dreamtime tea in the syringe spear instead of opium
2d12 minutes of unconsciousness (NOT sleep), no save.
I am not sure this works. That would be an injury method of delivery an ingested drug? I mean... if that works then WOW! But I don't think the RAW would allow for Dreamtime Tea to be administered that way.
Drugs are drugs, not poison, they operate under a completely different mechanic. Being immune to poison does not affect them the slightest.
I would also say that Addictions are specific exceptions to the general rules on diseases, because as above, they operate under the Addiction mechanic, not disease. So yes, a Paladin can get herself addicted if she's careless, or someone has slipped her the drug without her knowledge.
You are right that drugs are not a poison but addiction IS classified as a disease.
I think Paladin's may have other issues (alignment/code of conduct) that prohibit them from drug use without consequence but their disease immunity should, RAW, prevent them from developing an addiction. Druids and Monks would have similar benefits and of course Witches and Clerics, etc. might use drugs knowing that they can remove the negative effects with magic.
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There is a section titled: Curing Addiction which says: "As addictions are diseases, they can be cured as such, through the use of spells like remove disease or by succeeding at Fortitude saves over time. Unlike with other diseases, an addicted character can only make a Fortitude save to overcome his addiction after a day of not taking the drug he is addicted to."
I can see the new twist on the mechanic but the reason there is no "Remove Addiction" spell is because "Remove Disease" already meets the criteria. I agree that a Paladin suffering from a Pesh addiction is an attractive idea from an RP standpoint, but I don't think- RAW- it can be implemented if they have achieved level 3. I think the implication is that their God is protecting them from drug pushing tomfoolery.
With such over-arching things in place I think it would be beneficial if there were a separate mechanism for drugs/addiction. I can see an Irori monk using a steroid-esque drug in order to reach a "greater state of physical perfection" and that this should be tracked differently than normal poison/disease mechanic.
I think the more players talk about this discrepancy the more designers will be compelled to modify the rules. OR- remove them altogether. And I can see being for both of those scenarios. While I, as a player, like the implications of drugs (the No save pseudo-poison with minor benefits) I can understand they unbalance the game mechanics that are in place, and, as a player, I do not care for unbalanced elements (I am looking RIGHT at the Oracle! lol).
Personally, I'd say drugs can't be used in combat. However, I'd still like the ability to use drugs. As a rogue (or perhaps an NPC villain?), I might find it evil and cunning to slowly drug someone in order to create an addiction, and thus have a power of them. Can you imagine being able to addict a Paladin to some drug and how much that could mess with his faith? Now it's presumed that they're immune, but drugs could very easily be used for non-combat, long-term means of controlling/influencing PCs/NPCs. And yes, I've done that in an evil 3.5 campaign (although we ruled you couldn't do it to those immune to poison/disease).
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Opium is an injury type drug, as is Shiver. Meaning it can be administered via weapon strikes (though they have the Syringe Spear now so that is pretty cool too).
Effectively- RAW- I could fill my syringe spear with opium and coat it with Shiver. When I attack- assuming I hit- I end up doing 1d4+1d2 CON dmg, 1d4 Wis dmg, the target has 50% chance of falling asleep, are now fatigued the "benefits" of the drugs would be 1d8 temp hp, +2 FORT saves and a 50% change of being immune to fear. This is all in addition to the regular damage that is applied and doesn't take into account the addiction.
Since the character I made is evil I am not terribly restricted by alignment. And it would just be the one hit that does this but in a campaign where we are facing 15+ HD creatures CON damage is AWESOME!
I don't particularly LIKE the idea of a no save poison in the game (because these things could just as easily be turned against me) but I have also noticed that a large percentage of higher level creatures have Poison immunity, and there don't seem to be many viable methods of increasing the DC of poison meaning that a level 1 alchemist and a level 10 alchemist (with few exceptions) are making basically the same Spider Venom. When I see something with a FORT DC 11 selling at 120gp per dose (assuming I make Black Adder Venom for myself I would have to spend 40 gp) versus buying Opium and playing Doctor knowing that the effect goes off.
Also, I with the idea that drugs are not poisons the different talents and traits and items that boost poisons are not protecting you. Poison Use doesn't keep me from accidentally drugging myself... which is scary, but kinda fun too. Waiting for those Nat 1s to TOTALLY bonk my character.
Even if theoretically that would work, the question is, "Would you want a No Save effect in your game?". This is a two way street really. If what you say is correct, every NPC is gonna needle you down in matter of a single round because why wouldn't they? Prices for them are dirty cheap. This is the reason why poisons have a Save. Paizo wanted to avoid No Save "death" effects. Drugs require a better explanation at the moment, but if you believe that they can be administered in combat, you almost signed your own death sentence.
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If Drugs addictions are a disease. Does that mean that a paladin can dope up for all the benefits he want and never become addicted? They are immune to disease at level 3.
Are there any drug that would be useful for her?