I don't think theres a rule like that, but unless you are busy (like fighting) or you have a terrible perception, you would automatically notice things like that in our game. The plate armour is just stupid. Technically he should roll for you on things like that if he doesn't want you noticing things are off.
The point is you should get a roll, regardless.
Either: The GM calls out for players to roll
or
The GM rolls secretly for the players using their modifiers he wrote down earlier
or
GM just assumes everyone is taking 10 and has pre-calculated the result.
It depends on what it is. If it is something such as someone hiding that means they are doing something active then they should get a free check. --->Some things are automatic checks such as sight and noise based perception checks. By the rules you should roll(but as a free action) for hearing someone talk, and seeing someone. It is just that most GM's handwave it to prevent rolling for everything. You do not need a perception check to hear a sound or see something, which is basically what your GM is saying. Someone talking at normal conversation level can make less noise than someone in armor. Does he make you roll for that too? <----Point to bring up to him
Hidden doors and traps, and similar things mean the player has to check for it on his own.
If you have players that do not metagame you can just ask them to roll for the free checks. But if you think they will use their move action to reroll based on player knowledge them roll for them behind the screen. Alternately you can roll a few D20's before the game even starts and just tick them off as they come up.
By the rules some
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Ambushed by a group of guards in full plate:
Sounds like they were using Stealth.
Stealth (DEX, Armor Check Penalty): You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
Now since the DC of Stealth is determined by your perception skill (it is an opposed skill check), you need to make perception rolls in order to determine if the Guards are successful.
That said, looking at the Perception skill itself it states that most are reactive.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
So you only have to state you are using it when actively searching.
As BretI points out, the rules state most Perception checks are reactive, i.e., they are "free" without you as a player having to do anything, and the GM should prompt you for them.
If you want to look more closely at something, it is a move action and you must state that you want to make the check.
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Perception is generally a reactive skill, you only need to say your using perception if you're actively trying to search for stimuli or something. Like searching a desk for a hidden compartment. But hearing a loud noise, like people walking in full plate clanking noisily down the hallway...no. You don't need to say your searching for that. You just roll to see if you notice it. Just like if someone shot a gun, or a car backfired near you. You don't start searching for the noise to hear it, you just hear because you exist. Of course, if you're far enough away or there is too much stuff in between you and the source you might not hear it. But that's why you roll.
Your GM demanding you to say you're making a perception check for everything is being a douche canoe. You should just tell him that since it's not an action to passively perceive things, that you're constantly using perception and taking 10. Because you are and you can by game rules.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Yeah, you literally can't determine whether or not the guards' Stealth was successful unless the PCs make Perception checks, so you'd have to get a check there.
If the normal way to detect a given stimulus is by searching, the player needs to declare a search and spend a move action. If the normal way to detect a given stimulus is NOT by searching, then the GM should be calling for a check (or rolling in secret, or whatever) without any prompting from the players.
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Yeah, you literally can't determine whether or not the guards' Stealth was successful unless the PCs make Perception checks, so you'd have to get a check there.
To be fair, I have a tendency simply to add 10 to the party's highest Perception score if I'm "running silent" and don't want the party to start metagaming. It's easier and slows the game down less than asking for Perception rolls every ten feet in the dungeon whether there's a trap there or not.
You should usually get a Perception check to notice dangerous stuff and avoid being surprised. For good or ill (and I think it is mostly ill), many DMs are very determined to make sure the monsters get a surprise round though.
In a previous campaign a PC of mine who had a +27 Perception (and up to +47 when buffed) was surprised by 5 Huge giant slugs when the DM ruled that there was no Perception check to detect them since "they were coming around a corner" (this was on a path through a wooded area outdoors). I felt like it was ridiculous that a 28 minimum Perception check couldn't tell me that there were 5 elephant sized creatures which weren't even trying to be quiet up ahead, but the DM said there was no way to see them (not even through the trees?) and even another player agreed that slugs "might move pretty quietly since they just sort of slide along". My PC rolled low on initiative, and I think he took about 80 acid damage before he got a turn since flat footed touch AC isn't a great defense to rely on.
More recently PCs who rolled 20+ on their Perception checks walked within 5 feet of tunnels openings large enough for kobolds to come out of without noticing either the openings or the kobolds which soon came out of them. In this case an entirely different DM said that the PCs wouldn't have noticed such small holes since they were busy watching the spectacle of the party's Barbarian grappling with a tentacled qlippoth in the water below.
I guess my point is that even if you're supposed to get Perception checks and even if you roll high the DM might declare "Surprise!" anyhow. Boosting your initiative as high as possible and finding a way to always act in the surprise round are probably two of the most effective things you can do for your PC. Improved Initiative is kind of a boring feat in some ways though, so I spend a lot of my time at games waiting through two monster turns before I finally get to act. Don't be like me and think that boosting your PC's Perception skill will prevent ambushes!
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You should usually get a Perception check to notice dangerous stuff and avoid being surprised. For good or ill (and I think it is mostly ill), many DMs are very determined to make sure the monsters get a surprise round though.
In a previous campaign a PC of mine who had a +27 Perception (and up to +47 when buffed) was surprised by 5 Huge giant slugs when the DM ruled that there was no Perception check to detect them since "they were coming around a corner" (this was on a path through a wooded area outdoors). I felt like it was ridiculous that a 28 minimum Perception check couldn't tell me that there were 5 elephant sized creatures which weren't even trying to be quiet up ahead, but the DM said there was no way to see them (not even through the trees?) and even another player agreed that slugs "might move pretty quietly since they just sort of slide along". My PC rolled low on initiative, and I think he took about 80 acid damage before he got a turn since flat footed touch AC isn't a great defense to rely on.
More recently PCs who rolled 20+ on their Perception checks walked within 5 feet of tunnels openings large enough for kobolds to come out of without noticing either the openings or the kobolds which soon came out of them. In this case an entirely different DM said that the PCs wouldn't have noticed such small holes since they were busy watching the spectacle of the party's Barbarian grappling with a tentacled qlippoth in the water below.
I guess my point is that even if you're supposed to get Perception checks and even if you roll high the DM might declare "Surprise!" anyhow. Boosting your initiative as high as possible and finding a way to always act in the surprise round are probably two of the most effective things you can do for your PC. Improved Initiative is kind of a boring feat in some ways though, so I spend a lot of my time at games waiting through two monster turns before I finally get to act. Don't be like me and think that boosting your PC's Perception skill will prevent ambushes!
Even if they were invisible and silent, a huge size creature would have a base perception DC of 32 (0 + 20 for invisible + 20 for invisible AND silent -8 huge size penalty). This warrants a perception check when people start getting good modifiers, and with a +27 I would've just assumed that the possessing player heard it.
And assuming a giant slug is silent is a HUUUUUUGE assumption in a forest. In fact, I would backhand that guy into a classroom because it is hard as hell to move throught he wood without *something* making noise. It might not even be directly because of you, it might be a bird or something flying off because it sees you moving.
I would've placed the perception DC to notice such creatures, even without LoS, at no higher than 12. *most* people should have a fair shot of noticing them coming.
"You guys got ambushed by a bunch of guards in full plate armor because you forgot to tell me you were making perception checks," Or "You fail to detect the smell of knockout gas until it's too late because no one said they were making a perception check."
LOLWUT
Best thing I can think of to deal with 'passive perception checks', would be a spreadsheet that has all the party member's perception modifiers. When the GM needs to see if someone has seen something, he clicks a button in the spreadsheet, which 'rolls' a perception roll for each character - if said modified result is greater than the DC of what was potentially observed, that character is aware of it. Works great for opposed stealth checks, surprise checks, secret doors, etc.
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The knockout gas example is pretty funny to me since it implies that the players should constantly be asking the DM about every crazy possibility.
- Are there spider on the chair? I want to make a Perception check to see if there are spiders on the chair!
- How about thumbtacks? There could be poison thumbtacks!
- Do I hear a dragon flapping up outside? How about a demon? Is there a Vrock out there?
- My PC makes a Perception check on the meal we bought at the inn. Is the food rancid? Will the party get food poisoning if they eat this? Can we have a Fort save if we notice?
- My PC is concerned that the beautiful Princess he's betrothed to might actually be a man. Can I get a Perception check to make sure? I just wanted to make sure I asked. Can the PC check himself too to make sure he wasn't misled from birth?
Skeletons which rise out of piles of bones and statues which everybody guesses are going to come to life often surprise PCs too.
DM: "Surprise! The statue you were watching came to life!"
Shlomo: "I hit it with my readied action!"
DM: "You can't ready an action outside of initiative."
Shlomo: "Ok, I roll initiative, 14!"
DM: "The statue has a surprise round, so it hits you with a Vital Strike for 40 damage!"
Shlomo: "Why am I surprised? Everybody knew the statue was going to come to life!"
DM: "That's metagaming. Anyhow, the statue rolled a 15 initiative, so now it full attacks you for 60 damage!"
Shlomo: "Ouch, I'm down!"
DM: "You've got to be more cautious in this dungeon and stop getting caught by surprise."
@StabbittyDoom - The slugs were coming down a path through the forest and therefore might not have been snapping as many low branches and such as you'd expect. I'd think you should at least get a check, but I suppose some DMs will always rule that if something is quiet and out of sight there's no way to detect it before it surprises you.
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+27 Perception is high but there exist a bunch of penalties / (bonuses to stealth) that effects how you can perceive things.
Being nonvisible = invisible comes with a -20 penalty for the perciever (you can also rule it as +20 on the stealth instead). Being distracted is -5 or -10 to perception if I am correct. So if you stroll through the thick forest chatting about what gear to buy, a -20 & -10 penalty can easily autosurprise your party.
With my first DM we agreed that it was a good idea to have atleast one in the party to remain alert by being "on the lookout". So we commonly said "While passing through this forest xxx is keeping a lookout for anything out of the ordinary, such as creatures, dangers and sounds."
Being paranoid is a characters best attribute! :D
You should usually get a Perception check to notice dangerous stuff and avoid being surprised. For good or ill (and I think it is mostly ill), many DMs are very determined to make sure the monsters get a surprise round though.
In a previous campaign a PC of mine who had a +27 Perception (and up to +47 when buffed) was surprised by 5 Huge giant slugs when the DM ruled that there was no Perception check to detect them since "they were coming around a corner" (this was on a path through a wooded area outdoors). I felt like it was ridiculous that a 28 minimum Perception check couldn't tell me that there were 5 elephant sized creatures which weren't even trying to be quiet up ahead, but the DM said there was no way to see them (not even through the trees?) and even another player agreed that slugs "might move pretty quietly since they just sort of slide along". My PC rolled low on initiative, and I think he took about 80 acid damage before he got a turn since flat footed touch AC isn't a great defense to rely on.
More recently PCs who rolled 20+ on their Perception checks walked within 5 feet of tunnels openings large enough for kobolds to come out of without noticing either the openings or the kobolds which soon came out of them. In this case an entirely different DM said that the PCs wouldn't have noticed such small holes since they were busy watching the spectacle of the party's Barbarian grappling with a tentacled qlippoth in the water below.
I guess my point is that even if you're supposed to get Perception checks and even if you roll high the DM might declare "Surprise!" anyhow. Boosting your initiative as high as possible and finding a way to always act in the surprise round are probably two of the most effective things you can do for your PC. Improved Initiative is kind of a boring feat in some ways though, so I spend a lot of my time at games waiting through two monster turns before I finally get to act. Don't be like me and think that boosting your PC's Perception skill will prevent ambushes!
If a GM does this I would just tell him to assume I am taking 10 every 10 feet, and then I would let him know what my roll was while taking 10.
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I would just flip it around on the DM and ask if I could DM them a one-shot about retrieving loot from a manor.
Tell them they don't know where the house is, and when they ask to look for it, say they're standing at the door. They didn't realize this because they hadn't asked yet.
"I open the door."
"You don't see a door."
"I look for a door."
"There's a door right in front of you."
"I open the door."
"You don't see a way to open the door."
Lather rinse repeat. Then after a while, switch it up.
"I check the room for monsters."
"No monsters."
"Alright, I loot the room."
"You get stabbed for 1d8 + 1 damage, roll initiative."
"WTF? I thought you said there were no monsters."
"Nope. None. There was a man, though."
It would take like 7 hours to get through a single CR 1/3 fight and grab an otherwise unguarded piece of loot that sits in plain sight, but it would prove the point: Forcing people to declare every perception check makes everyone a jackass, so don't do it.
In fact, expand that rule out further: If you are doing things, whether as player or DM, that force people to play defensively and have to anticipate your every move or lose horribly: You're being a jackass.
There's a significant difference between the DM like the OP's who says you didn't notice the monster because you didn't ask for a Perception check and the DM who says you didn't notice the monster regardless of what your Perception check might be because <whatever excuse is needed to get that surprise round>. Sometimes the "excuse" is something perfectly valid like, "Invisible Ninja rolled 51 Stealth, and now she's shooting you!". Other times it is more like, "slugs would actually be pretty quiet since they glide along on slime (with their -12 on Stealth checks)"
Obviously I'd like my PCs to get surprised less, but I'm glad that they at least don't have to rob loot from a manor filled with knockout gas and always keep guessing what they should look for next. A DM ignoring the rules for Perception and Stealth to get free surprise rounds on the PCs is pretty run of the mill, but blaming it on the players for playing foolishly when really they've just failed to ask for Perception checks every few seconds seems significantly worse.
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I would just flip it around on the DM and ask if I could DM them a one-shot about retrieving loot from a manor.
Tell them they don't know where the house is, and when they ask to look for it, say they're standing at the door. They didn't realize this because they hadn't asked yet.
"I open the door."
"You don't see a door."
"I look for a door."
"There's a door right in front of you."
"I open the door."
"You don't see a way to open the door."
Lather rinse repeat. Then after a while, switch it up.
"I check the room for monsters."
"No monsters."
"Alright, I loot the room."
"You get stabbed for 1d8 + 1 damage, roll initiative."
"WTF? I thought you said there were no monsters."
"Nope. None. There was a man, though."
It would take like 7 hours to get through a single CR 1/3 fight and grab an otherwise unguarded piece of loot that sits in plain sight, but it would prove the point: Forcing people to declare every perception check makes everyone a jackass, so don't do it.
In fact, expand that rule out further: If you are doing things, whether as player or DM, that force people to play defensively and have to anticipate your every move or lose horribly: You're being a jackass.
LOL you sound like one of those text based dungeons from the 80's.
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I would just flip it around on the DM and ask if I could DM them a one-shot about retrieving loot from a manor.
Tell them they don't know where the house is, and when they ask to look for it, say they're standing at the door. They didn't realize this because they hadn't asked yet.
"I open the door."
"You don't see a door."
"I look for a door."
"There's a door right in front of you."
"I open the door."
"You don't see a way to open the door."
Lather rinse repeat. Then after a while, switch it up.
"I check the room for monsters."
"No monsters."
"Alright, I loot the room."
"You get stabbed for 1d8 + 1 damage, roll initiative."
"WTF? I thought you said there were no monsters."
"Nope. None. There was a man, though."
It would take like 7 hours to get through a single CR 1/3 fight and grab an otherwise unguarded piece of loot that sits in plain sight, but it would prove the point: Forcing people to declare every perception check makes everyone a jackass, so don't do it.
In fact, expand that rule out further: If you are doing things, whether as player or DM, that force people to play defensively and have to anticipate your every move or lose horribly: You're being a jackass.
LOL you sound like one of those text based dungeons from the 80's.
Ye find yeself in yon dungeon. Ye see a FLASK. Obvious exits are NORTH, SOUTH, and DENNIS.
What wouldst thou deau?
>get ye flask
You can't get ye flask!
Yeah, you literally can't determine whether or not the guards' Stealth was successful unless the PCs make Perception checks, so you'd have to get a check there.To be fair, I have a tendency simply to add 10 to the party's highest Perception score if I'm "running silent" and don't want the party to start metagaming. It's easier and slows the game down less than asking for Perception rolls every ten feet in the dungeon whether there's a trap there or not.
This is what I do as well. It's more seamless and allows better flow.
Players can always actively search, which requires they roll. But I always assume they are doing the normal and rational thing (i.e., taking 10), as they travel and explore.
If a character is the designated "spotter," I use their PER and roll secretly, even if they are not the highest. Otherwise, I default to whomever has the best PER modifier. With 6 players, odds are very high someone is going to notice something anyway, so why bother having everyone roll? Especially multiple times.
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I just tell the players when they need to roll. If there is anything that might be of interest at all, I warn them and let them roll.
Otherwise the game breaks down to, "I move 5'. I make a perception check. I move 5'. I make a perception check..."
It sucked 25 years ago with a 10' pole, and it still sucks today.