spear tricks

[Zwordsman]

Howdy howdy.

I'm wondering if any folks know more spear related stuff for fun or tips on using spears/longarms etc. the whole reach subset..
It's mostly a general question. but I am curious if anyone knows any other effects like these from two fighter archetypes?
I'm fond of that lv 7 one.. but it sadly makes it harder for some random ideas I've had in the past.

dragoon lv 7
At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons.

I like the archetypethough at first level instead of free feat you get mounted combat and skillfocus ride. Mounts are wonky sometimes. but not a terrible option.

Polarm Master fighter

At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

[Rodinia]

Using reach weapons effectively is more a question of tactics than of actual class abilities. None of the rule books say anything about this.

Both the class abilities you reference just give ways to threaten adjacent. Threatening adjacent is not particularly important with a reach weapon. One can accomplish the same effect with 50 gp CRB Armor Spikes. Why would one care to do so, though?

There are a few reasons to wield a reach weapon:

* Control the battlefield: foes don't want to move near you
* Protection: melee foes must come close, provoking an AoO, before they can attack you
* Action economy: Do something on your round, and hope foes choose to impale themself on your spear on their turn

Note how none of the above involve threatening adjacent. That only becomes important when a reach weapon is no longer useful at reach. It's a failure mitigation strategy. Instead of working to mitigate failure, perhaps plan so you don't fail in the first place.

* Ready an action to attack the first foe to come within reach. This gives you two attacks on anything wishing to become adjacent

* Leave room to 5' step away

* Know how your group will respond to a foe getting close. E.g. Do your allies wish to get adjacent to foes to trade Full Attacks, or do your allies wish to keep away from foes?

[Charon's Little Helper]

As long as you have room to 5ft step - it's generally not too much of an issue.

[Saldiven]

I've been considering creating and running a Reach based Fighter, so this thread is of interest to me. I know Fighter isn't considered a very optimal class, but I wondered if the number of potential Feats available to the Fighter might make a viable Reach based build.

Which Feats or combinations thereof would be best for building such a Fighter? There are some obvious ones like Power Attack (since most Reach weapons are Two-Handed) and Combat Reflexes (more AoO). Then the ubiquitous ones like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Is the Cleave chain worthwhile since the expanded threat range expands the potential number of targets?

A question about Lunge. It increases the Reach of melee attacks by 5'. Does this expand the threat range of a Reach Weapon to include foes in the 10' and 15' area, or eliminate the 10' bracket and only include the 15' bracket (assuming medium character)?

[Imbicatus]

Lunge ends on your turn, so it does not directly expand your threatened area. However, it does force foes to take more than a 5ft step to reach you, denying them a full attack and forcing them to take an AoO for moving through threatened squares.

Cleave generally isn't worth it because it relies on foes being adjacent to each other. Unless you are dwarf with the dwarf cleave feats to allow you to cleave non-adjacent foes.

[Saldiven]

So, which Feat combinations would be optimal for such a build to capitalize upon maximizing attacks and damage output of a Reach weapon? Would it be a good idea to look at Crit-fishing with a Reach weapon?

[Charon's Little Helper]

I can't think of any 18-20 crit reach weapons.

It depends upon your campaign - but being a tripper with reach weapons can be great since it goes well with your battlfield control. If someone comes at you or your buddies and ends up on the ground 10-20ft away - he just wasted his whole turn. Though it works best in humanoid heavier campaigns since you can't trip really big things, or flying critters (I sometimes miss 3.5 when that was amazing), or oozes etc.

[Zwordsman]

Mostly I was hoping to recreate a dragoon fro mFinal fantasy tactics war of the lions.
which was going to involve some charges acting like leap attacks.
and hence it'd be neat to be able to hit closer as well since occasionaly it'll be in close spaces. and its just not in the flavor to armour spikes or gauntlet. Even if it's considerably suckier.

Though sadly it looks more like reach weapons are generally trippy style stuff. Guess i'll go read more feats and see what ican do

[Charon's Little Helper]

Zwordsman wrote:

Though sadly it looks more like reach weapons are generally trippy style stuff. Guess i'll go read more feats and see what ican do

Or charge based. Lances are all about the mounted charges. Spirited Charge for x3 damage? Yes please.

It sounds like that's more of the feel you're going for. Though I don't know any way to get it without a mount. (Maybe you could get your GM to houserule you a weak air elemental mount for a cavalier so that it seems like you're just leaping when you're coming around for another charge from above.)

[177cheese]

Fauchards are 1d10 18-20 weapons with reach.
The benefit of reach is what the other posters have said. Grab combat reflexes, increase your size if you can, and enjoy your multiple bonus attacks a round with little fear of being full attacked.

You could even build for tripping strike with the Fauchard and trip the people you crit.

[tonyz]

Fauchards are great, and worth the feat for exotic weapon proficiency.

[Saldiven]

Out of curiosity, in which publication is the fauchard? I don't see it in Ultimate Equipment.

[Kaldur Arahm]

Classic Horrors Revisited

[Saldiven]

Kaldur'ahm wrote:

Classic Horrors Revisited

Argh.

It's out of print. (I prefer paper copies to .PDF)

[Rodinia]

A reach fighter can get by just fine with only the feats Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. Your attacks hit hard, and you get a lot of them. Combat feats beyond those two, while never bad, are just gravy. This is why any class with decent strength and dexterity makes a solid reach fighter: few feats required to perform well, so low barrier to entry. Those two feats get you 70% of your max damage output, lots more feats get you that extra 30%.

With just those two feats you have solid combat options:

* Attack for damage. Despite all the discussion about fancy combat tricks and maneuvers, you are often best just attacking for damage.

* You can trip just fine, even though you don't have the Improved Trip feat. Just be certain the foe does not threaten you when you attempt a trip.

A large fraction of your damage, especially at early levels, is likely to be from AoOs. This largely depends on how effectively you and your allies use reach tactics. My reach fighters usually inflict more damage via AoOs than via direct attacks, although that's partly because I often play Clerics who cast a spell on their turn.

The more tactically able are your allies, the more effective will be your reach fighter. Your biggest problem is likely to be your own tactically challenged 'allies'. For example, if one of your allies always rushes the foe, without considering the tactical situation, this will usually deny you AoOs, greatly reducing your damage output. Often, the 'allies' who do this wind up inflicting less damage than they prevent you from inflicting, when they could have just waited a bit and you would both get in your whacks. Thus 'tactically challenged'. So, look to your allies, consider how tactically competent they are, and whether they are willing to work with you.

[Saldiven]

Ok. Good to know. So, after those two Feats, I can pick and choose such that I get whatever flavor I'm looking for (while avoiding trap choices, where possible).

[Zwordsman]

haha. chances are i'll be nearly the only melee fellow out there with casters in the background.
gonna have to think on choices~

[tonyz]

Reach fighter is still nice for bodyguard work, as enemies trying to get to the casters have to either go way around you, or else have to come through your trip range. Nice for generating more AoOs. Also, consider asking your caster friends to put an Enlarge Person on you to improve your blocking ability (and reach).

Those two feats give you a lot of room, but Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Lunge are also very helpful (+2 to your major attack is very good for a feat, generating another AoO when you trip someone is really good, and Lunge maximizes the power of your reach.)

[Mark Hoover]

Combat Patrol lets you AoO all over the place with a reach weapon. If your Dex is high and you've got space to maneuver, you just 5' step into an area and then wait for the villains to move. Suddenly you're a whirling vortex of attacks. Consider that, by the time you get the feat (BAB +5) you're hitting foes at 10' already and this feat expands that out to 15'... every direction. That's kind of ridiculous.

Also if you're thinking of tripping or hindering your foes, try Spear Dancer. It's not much; your foes are -1 to attack, but it happens for 1 round on everyone you hit. The feat doesn't require you do damage, just that you hit. So...

Combat Patrol + Trip + Spear Dancer means that you could potentially trip every foe provoking within 15' of you and debuff their attacks the next round. Then as they all stand back up... BLAM! Fouchard damage + another round of debuff.

[Zwordsman]

Hum looks pretty hart to find a balance between str and dex in these builds to me. Unless there is anothe rway to get more aoos?

Since baring phalanx fighter with adip in swashbuckler, I know of no way to get dex to hit on a spear...

doubt i can use spear dancer. restricted to anything on the official paizo site, like core, advanced line, ultimate line, no mythic and i think no tech..
well if ibouhgt stuff it probalby would be allowed since we'd have direct access unlike sites like nethys and d20 (good but not a primary resource, which my dm likes)

[Imbicatus]

Zwordsman wrote:

Hum looks pretty hart to find a balance between str and dex in these builds to me. Unless there is anothe rway to get more aoos?

Since baring phalanx fighter with adip in swashbuckler, I know of no way to get dex to hit on a spear...

Not with a spear, but it's quite easy to get dex to damage with a whip, which is a reach weapon. You would need whip mastery feats, but it works if you're willing to deal with the poor damage die.

[Zwordsman]

Imbicatus wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

Hum looks pretty hart to find a balance between str and dex in these builds to me. Unless there is anothe rway to get more aoos?

Since baring phalanx fighter with adip in swashbuckler, I know of no way to get dex to hit on a spear...

Not with a spear, but it's quite easy to get dex to damage with a whip, which is a reach weapon. You would need whip mastery feats, but it works if you're willing to deal with the poor damage die.

Hum.. that was something I thought about as well in an earlier iteration but it takes while for damage to come online sadly, since early on our sorc blaster isn't ognna have lots of ammo.

but i was looking at a fun brawler with that but its not that amazin till a few levels in then its just amusing.

I guess maybe phalanx fighter could be intersting if not different.

at the least thanks for infos so far

[Kefler]

if you really want to get allot of reach try this.

bloodrager with aberrant blood line
4 level +5 ft reach
the long arm spell
the enlarge spell , or cross blooded with abyssal for demonic bulk , or primal and take 2 rage powers that give you enlarge with rage.
take a reach weapon
now you have a 25 ft reach

[Zwordsman]

It's really a lot less about getting reach, than using a spear or something like a spear effectively

which I guess for most things seem to be "get more reach and aoo the hell out of stuff" or "lance and charge"

I'll probably end up more the second than the first, but I'll have some of the first

[Scott Wilhelm]

I have seen an awful lot of PFS battlefields with intervening obstacles where physically getting adjacent to the enemy just doesn't work and you just end up on the 2nd rank. PFS characters should just have a reach weapon handy for just such an occasion. Even if you are the party wizard, you should keep one handy to lend.

[Scott Wilhelm]

not a polearm, but a reach weapon, I've seen some interesting build ideas with a whip. Ridiculous range, tripping and disarming. It was pretty cool.

[Covert Operator]

There is two reach weapons which are one-handed by default. Both are susceptible to GM fiat :
Gnome Flickmace - Was supposed to be removed from Gnomes of Golarion, but they forgot to remove it from the weapon listing so it remains, a ghost without a shell.
Flying Talon - Gamemastery module D0, which was written waaaaay back a long time ago.
EDIT: check this out

[Kefler]

Pushing Assault (Combat)
A strike made with a two-handed weapon can push a similar sized opponent backward.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you hit a creature your size or smaller with a two-handed weapon attack modified by the Power Attack feat, you can choose to push the target 5 feet directly away from you instead of dealing the extra damage from Power Attack. If you score a critical hit, you can instead push the target 10 feet directly away from you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunities, and the target must end this move in a safe space it can stand in. You choose which effect to apply after the attack roll has been made, but before the damage is rolled.

this might be cool for someone with a really big reach

[Raltus]

kefler wrote:

Pushing Assault (Combat)
A strike made with a two-handed weapon can push a similar sized opponent backward.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you hit a creature your size or smaller with a two-handed weapon attack modified by the Power Attack feat, you can choose to push the target 5 feet directly away from you instead of dealing the extra damage from Power Attack. If you score a critical hit, you can instead push the target 10 feet directly away from you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunities, and the target must end this move in a safe space it can stand in. You choose which effect to apply after the attack roll has been made, but before the damage is rolled.

this might be cool for someone with a really big reach

Or just setting up for reoccurring AoO's

[Kefler]

Raltus wrote:

kefler wrote:

Pushing Assault (Combat)
A strike made with a two-handed weapon can push a similar sized opponent backward.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you hit a creature your size or smaller with a two-handed weapon attack modified by the Power Attack feat, you can choose to push the target 5 feet directly away from you instead of dealing the extra damage from Power Attack. If you score a critical hit, you can instead push the target 10 feet directly away from you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunities, and the target must end this move in a safe space it can stand in. You choose which effect to apply after the attack roll has been made, but before the damage is rolled.

this might be cool for someone with a really big reach

Or just setting up for reoccurring AoO's

it could limit the zone where you could not use your reach weapon

you take a 5 ft step then push him back 5 ft , so he eats an other AOO to get you and you are full attacking while he is not.

might be good with ares of difficult terrain

or just push him in that pit that your wizard friend just made :)

[666bender]

Theres a feat for spears that add dazzled effect, combined with lvl 3 thug you got free shaken (cornugon smash) and sicken and dazzled.
Add dazing assult and opponent is ... Gone.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I was just looking at the Phalanx Soldier Fighter Archetype, and I'm impressed by the ability to use shield and polearm. Since polearms and spears have such a cornecopia of special tricks: reach, trip, brace, and disarm, and many of them have impressive damage for-1 handed weapons, there is a wealth of options.

With the Bashing Enchantment a heavy spiked shield or a Klar does 2d6 damage. With Shield Slam, you can maintain reach, Bull Rushing anyone away who gets too close.

With a good bashing shield and a reach pole arm, you could Great Cleave everyone within 10'. Pretty cool.

You could use 2 weapon with a small spiked shield and a halberd or something and do quite respectable damage, although my favorite manufactured 2 weapon fighting combo is Thunder and Fang.

A tripping build with a tripping reach polearm is classic.

I've always wanted to do a build that develops the Brace feature, exploiting battlefield position and maybe a feat like Goad or Antagonize to finesse a charge out of opponents.

Since pole weapons have a variety of special features, this character might be a good candidate for Quick Draw with the ability to always have the right tool for a job whenever you need it, throwing spears until the enemy charges, then bristling out with a reach brace pole arm taking multiple attacks of opportunity that do double damage, and when they finally get close to you, you bull rush them away and tenderize them more.

Pretty cool.

[The Cube of Rubix]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I was just looking at the Phalanx Soldier Fighter Archetype, and I'm impressed by the ability to use shield and polearm. Since polearms and spears have such a cornecopia of special tricks: reach, trip, brace, and disarm, and many of them have impressive damage for-1 handed weapons, there is a wealth of options.

With the Bashing Enchantment a heavy spiked shield or a Klar does 2d6 damage. With Shield Slam, you can maintain reach, Bull Rushing anyone away who gets too close.

With a good bashing shield and a reach pole arm, you could Great Cleave everyone within 10'. Pretty cool.

You could use 2 weapon with a small spiked shield and a halberd or something and do quite respectable damage, although my favorite manufactured 2 weapon fighting combo is Thunder and Fang.

A tripping build with a tripping reach polearm is classic.

I've always wanted to do a build that develops the Brace feature, exploiting battlefield position and maybe a feat like Goad or Antagonize to finesse a charge out of opponents.

Since pole weapons have a variety of special features, this character might be a good candidate for Quick Draw with the ability to always have the right tool for a job whenever you need it, throwing spears until the enemy charges, then bristling out with a reach brace pole arm taking multiple attacks of opportunity that do double damage, and when they finally get close to you, you bull rush them away and tenderize them more.

Pretty cool.

Imagine that on a build that has martial flexibility so they can trade out manuever feats at will.

[Zwordsman]

The Cube of Rubix wrote:

Imagine that on a build that has martial flexibility so they can trade out manuever feats at will.

that into shield brawler was basically one of my builds im considering.

[The Cube of Rubix]

Hmm Phalanx Soldier 3/Shield Brawler X would be a good Achillies build. Use the beginning free feats to set up your Reach build and then focus on shield bash for close range combat.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Ah, you're thinking of the Shield Champion Brawler Archetype that can perform a few different maneuvers with their shields? Also, the ability to gain combat feats that you don't actually have. It sounds like you can some exciting things with that.

[Wolfism]

Another option would be the sohei, which can eventually flurry with the spear or with unarmed attacks at close range.

Another combo could be spear dancer with dirty trick master to turn dazzled into blinded.

[666bender]

Wolfism wrote:

Another option would be the sohei, which can eventually flurry with the spear or with unarmed attacks at close range.

Another combo could be spear dancer with dirty trick master to turn dazzled into blinded.

Wont work....

"against an opponent who is still affected by a condition inflicted by a previous dirty trick "

[Errant Mercenary]

You could also have fun as a spear debuffer - ala bad touch but with a stick.

Hexcrafter Magus One Hit debuffer

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Lunge, Spear Dancer, Rime Spell, Enforcer
Arcana: Arcane Accuracy, Hex (Evil Eye/any debuff), Accursed Strike, Hex (Cackle)
Weapon enchantment: Conductive
Extra gravy/build variations: -PWAttack, Furious Focus- -WF, Weapon of the chosen (normal, improved, greater).

Combat:
Round 1
Get into a medium range position, between your main line and your back line. Spell Strike Frost Bite (Rime), Swift Arcane Accuary. Reach, with Lunge is 15ft. Free action Enforcer. Free action Spear Dancer dazzle. Conductive weapon Evil Eye (-hit, level 8)
Result: Fatigued, Entangled, Shaken, Dazzled, Evil Eye = -9

Round 2
Move: Either move positions if threaned, or use Cackle on whoever.
Spell Strike Bestow Curse, because they still dont think they have enough penalties. Rest as above.
Result: - 15 hit.

Meanwhile, being out of reach means you're either safe or enemies are provoking AoO's from you (which leads to the results of round 1, -9 for everyone you touch).

You rely on AoO and on that one hit - investing into Weapon of the Chosen is costly but fun. Also, mix in Warpriest for Gentle Repose you can get them Staggered a few times a day with Conductive.

Weapons: This works better with a whip, more feat costly. It's just another way of fighting and providing good battle control. Note that Evil Eye and Bestow curse and other effects can also affect saving throws, etc. -6 int damage to a caster means they lose A LOT of high level spell casting.

Edit: Frigid Touch is also a good Spell Strike debuff.

[Gisher]

Evil Eye doesn't work with conductive weapons, because it isn't a touch attack or ranged touch attack. And Enforcer requires non lethal damage, so you either take a -4 penalty to hit or you need a merciful spear.

And anytime you are using Enforcer, you should follow up with an attack from a Cruel weapon to add the sickened condition.

[Errant Mercenary]

Gisher wrote:

Evil Eye doesn't work with conductive weapons, because it isn't a touch attack or ranged touch attack. And Enforcer requires non lethal damage, so you either take a -4 penalty to hit or you need a merciful spear.

And anytime you are using Enforcer, you should follow up with an attack from a Cruel weapon to add the sickened condition.

Ah good catch on the Evil Eye. However, Frost Bite does non-lethal damage, triggering Enforcer. Unless your DM rules it is exclusively weapon damage that needs to be the non lethal, which I see no reason for.

Edit: Additionally Conductive has the once per round clause, making the AoOs a bit weaker. Back to the drawing board!

[Gisher]

Errant Mercenary wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Evil Eye doesn't work with conductive weapons, because it isn't a touch attack or ranged touch attack. And Enforcer requires non lethal damage, so you either take a -4 penalty to hit or you need a merciful spear.

And anytime you are using Enforcer, you should follow up with an attack from a Cruel weapon to add the sickened condition.

Ah good catch on the Evil Eye. However, Frost Bite does non-lethal damage, triggering Enforcer. Unless your DM rules it is exclusively weapon damage that needs to be the non lethal, which I see no reason for.

I'm one of those who thinks that the weapon has to deal the non-lethal damage, but I know that I am in the minority on this issue. But either way, you definitely would want to add Cruel to the spear. Those who agree with me about Enforcer would be best served with the hilariously named Cruel Merciful spear. :)

[The Cube of Rubix]

I would love to make an Achilles (Troy) build off the spear trick idea, using the spear and shield combo. Would be really fun and iconic.

The Fighter 3/Shield Champion X would be very nice to do that but I am not sure it captures it all. But it definitely makes me want too.

[Scott Wilhelm]

This is kind of what I've been thinking. Human Fighter for PFS.

1Fighter1 Quick Draw Power Attack Cleave
2F2 Furious Focus Stand Firm
3F3 Phalanx Fighting Combat Reflexes
4F4 Great Cleave
5F5 Antagonize Ready Pike 1day/+1
6F6 Improved Shield Bash Stand Firm +2
7F7 Shield Slam Deft Shield
8F8 Improved Bull Rush
9F9 Ready Pike 2day/+2 Greater Bull Rush
10F9Cavalier1 Mount, Tactician, Challenge Paired Opportunist

So this one should be able to switch quickly between weapons, use Antagonize to finesse a charge onto his Brace Weapons, and Cleave with a 10' radius, Bull Rushing away anyone who gets too close.

I guess this is more Alexander the Great than Agamemnon, but still pretty cool.