Optimizing Tiefling(Oni) Barbarian


Advice


Abilities - 20 point buy, +2 STR/WIS, -2 CHA Oni-Spawn.
18 (16+2) STR, 12 DEX, 16 CON, 10 INT, 14 (12+2) WIS, 5 (7-2) CHA.
Don't know how to allocate 5 bonus points from leveling.

Racial - can I swap alternative racial traits even with alternative heritage in place?
Skilled -> Fiendish Sprinter (+10 ft to charge/pounce)
Alter Self -> Over-sized limbs (BoF says you can ask GM for it, not to roll)
Fiendish Sorcery -> Prehensile Tail (Retrieving potions as swift)

Rage powers - (2 lvl) Beast Totem, Lesser, (4 lvl) - Reckless Abandon, (6 lvl) - Beast Totem, (8 lvl) - Superstition, (10 lvl) - Beast Totem, Greater, (12 lvl) - Come and Get Me, (14 lvl) - Witch Hunter, (16 lvl) - Spell Sunder, (18 lvl) - Eater of Magic, (20 lvl) - Strength Surge

I'm getting "Come and Get Me" just because everyone says it's good. But I'll only have 2 AoO with "Combat Reflexes" - do you think it'll work?

Feats - (1 lvl) Power Attack, (3 lvl) Raging Vitality, (5 lvl) Reckless Rage, (7 lvl) Horn of the Criosphinx, (9 lvl) Critical Focus, (11 lvl) Combat Reflexes, (13 lvl) Raging Brutality, (15 lvl) Improved Sunder, (17 lvl) Staggering Critical, (19 lvl) - ???

Combat reflexes are here only because of "Come and Get Me". Still thinking about "Improved Sunder" - do I really need those +2 and no AoO? Last slot - thinking about "Raging Deathblow" to replenish ragerounds, but really don't know for certain.

Traits - (1st) Superior Clutch (+1 DMG for large weapons), (2nd) - ???

I really don't know anything about those, always went reactionary and something for flavor.

Equipment - Large Falchion with "Keen". Thinking about "Courageous", "Furious", "Impact". "Cord of Stubborn Resolve" for rage-cycling.

I'm not sure about anything - you can see all those questions in every category. Also I don't know how should I manage powers/feat order and I'm not sure about going critbuild. Any feedback will help, every though will be appreciated.


For the second trait, I would either go for something that improves will (or at least will vs. enchantments, which can get a greater if more specialized return) or something that improves initiative.

You can only start raging after your turn comes around. Unless I am getting something wrong, you are just as easy to manipulate as a fighter until then. So either upping will (not too hard, you already have a +2 from wis) or upping initiative (so you can rage sooner) should help.


lemeres wrote:

For the second trait, I would either go for something that improves will (or at least will vs. enchantments, which can get a greater if more specialized return) or something that improves initiative.

You can only start raging after your turn comes around. Unless I am getting something wrong, you are just as easy to manipulate as a fighter until then. So either upping will (not too hard, you already have a +2 from wis) or upping initiative (so you can rage sooner) should help.

I can put a feat for will saves.

And also "Superior Clutch" is just +1, I'm having it just because it goes well with flavor. It can be swapped with reactionary and the second one will get me some saves.


look into the cord of stubborn resolve--it lets you rage as an immediate action (and get those raging will bonuses) if someone tries anything funny.


AndIMustMask wrote:
look into the cord of stubborn resolve--it lets you rage as an immediate action (and get those raging will bonuses) if someone tries anything funny.

Did you confuse it with some other kind of item?

Firstly - I already have it for rage cycling.
Secondly - it does not provide those bonuses you mentioned.


im surprised your not going the claw and maw route honestly. At level 1 you could potentially have three natural attacks and beast totem get you a fourth. This will not work in later levels because of DR issues but early on its a BEAST.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:
This will not work in later levels.

And I really want to swing a big stick.


Sergeek The Mad wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
This will not work in later levels.
And I really want to swing a big stick.

fair enough.


They meant Headband of Havoc. Immediate action rage if you're attacked or forced to make a save (costs 2 rounds to enter). Also every rage you pick a rage power to count as four levels higher. That's +1 for most things (beast totem, superstition, reckless abandon) but I personally love it for +4 to Strength Surge.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:

im surprised your not going the claw and maw route honestly. At level 1 you could potentially have three natural attacks and beast totem get you a fourth. This will not work in later levels because of DR issues but early on its a BEAST.

Are natural attacks really that bad at higher levels? I would think they have the same bonuses as a monk. as in they can wear the same robe and get the bonuses to the natural attacks? Or a regular 1h weapon? I haven't played at higher levels so I wouldn't know. You can do 1 1/2 str to some natural attacks.


The biggest thing about natural attacks is overcoming DR. Monks get an ability that lets them overcome DR. But other than that you'll need an Amulet of Mighty Fists that has a high enough + bonus to overcome the DR you're facing. And that's an expensive item.

monks robes don't help natural attacks

1h weapon are cheaper to enhance than an amulet, and they can be enhanced more than an amulet can be.

Getting 1.5 str on 1 natural attack a round isn't as good as getting 4 attacks with 1.5 str a round. (you only get 1.5 str if you only have 1 natural attack)


Also short crit range, standard multiplier, some enchantments don't work, low initial dice, no 1.5x on power attack. You need more resources to make them valuable, both in feats/powers/gold. But that's another story for another tread.
Still looking for more input on my build.


I think you could drop some feats for extra rage powers. You're going to want Spell Sunder before level 18, trust me. Drop horn of the Criosphinx and put in Witch Hunter. Horn only gives you bonus damage when you charge, and only adds 1/2 of your str mod to the damage. Witch Hunter adds damage against anything with magic, which is everything important from the mid levels onward. I'd also replace Raging Brutality with a rage power (possibly Ghost Rager to add your superstition bonus to your touch AC) because you'll burn through your rage rounds per day too quickly if you're not stingy with it.

Finally, if you're going to take CaGM, I'd drop your Wis by 2 and put it into your Dex. Your will saves will be fine with Superstition, but there will be situations where you want more than 2 AoO. Also, if you're going to use CaGM, I'd find a way to pick up Dazing Strike, so you can attack your attacker first, and knock them out for a round so they don't even get a chance to resolve their damage to you. Since you're not going a DR heavy build you can't afford to just eat every CaGM attack you take.


Space McMan wrote:
Since you're not going a DR heavy build you can't afford to just eat every CaGM attack you take.

Excellent reply! If it is worth noting - I'm going invulnerable rager for more DR.


Over-sized limbs only allows to have no penalty for wielding oversized weapons. It does not allow you to wield oversized two-handed weapons.
So you could wield an oversized longsword two-handed without penalty or an oversized kukri one-handed.
But apart from the titan fighter (or however it's called) sadly no ability in Paizo PF allows to wield a oversized two-handed weapon.


Just a Guess wrote:

Over-sized limbs only allows to have no penalty for wielding oversized weapons. It does not allow you to wield oversized two-handed weapons.

So you could wield an oversized longsword two-handed without penalty or an oversized kukri one-handed.
But apart from the titan fighter (or however it's called) sadly no ability in Paizo PF allows to wield a oversized two-handed weapon.

I had a thread about it already to get some clarifications - yes you can wield two-handers.

Over-sized limbs have exact same wording like abilities of some Giants and ability of Redcap - and the first ones wield one-handed oversized weapons in one hand, the second wields oversized two-hander.


Can we get a link to that clarification?
That the redcap, a creature that can use a spiked boot as a secondary attack (something only possible with natural attacks), can do it is hardly a good rules quote.


Just a Guess wrote:
Can we get a link to that clarification?

If you're asking about the thread I made previously, it's here.

If you're interested about Giants, here is the Ash:

Giant, Ash (Large Humanoid)

  • Melee Huge club +20/+15 (2d6+11 plus disease), slam +15 (1d8+5 plus disease)
  • Or 2 slams +20 (1d8+11 plus disease)
Oversized Weapon (Ex) An ash giant can wield Huge weapons without penalty

Just a Guess wrote:
That the redcap, a creature that can use a spiked boot as a secondary attack (something only possible with natural attacks), can do it is hardly a good rules quote.

It has a special ability for it, not just those boots alone, so I can't see why it's a problem.


Ok,I understood your statement in a way that you had an official clarification.

on the redcap: Both its special abilities violate the rules without spelling out that it is intended. Thats the problem with it.

And I have seen several threads in the past about the tiefling ability and yours is the first one Iknow about that did not come to the conclusion that it does not work with twohanded weapons.


Just a Guess wrote:
And I have seen several threads in the past about the tiefling ability and yours is the first one Iknow about that did not come to the conclusion that it does not work with twohanded weapons.

Because martials can't have nice things! Seriously though, I saw those threads and also had my doubts, but nobody ever addressed those notes from bestiary.


ARE oversized two-handed weapons nice things?
I totally want martials to have nice things. And now that the titan fighter is a thing there is a RAW way to use oversized two-handed weapons.
But are they really the go to option to lessen the caster martial disparity?

Grand Lodge

No reach weapon? Your two-handed-weapon hits very hard. If it were a reach weapon you would get extra attacks with it. This would almost certainly increase your damage output. This would also improve your defense (you take fewer full attacks plus some foes would hesitate to approach) and would better protect the squishies behind you. Seems like a win for you all around, and a loss for your foes. Perhaps that's not the style you seek?


Just a Guess wrote:
ARE oversized two-handed weapons nice things?

Well, I actually want that feel of having a huge slab of iron in my hands which can cut an armored steed in half just with one strike.

But mechanic-wise, I thought about using crit-build and adding impact property after hitting +5 on my falchion to make it worth.
Just a Guess wrote:
And now that the titan fighter is a thing there is a RAW way to use oversized two-handed weapons.

He is still a fighter though.

Just a Guess wrote:
But are they really the go to option to lessen the caster martial disparity?

Nothing will do that, sadly.


Rodinia wrote:
No reach weapon?

I can't hit adjacent foes with those and having a low count of AoOs will render their utility. Also 20 crit range.


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Oversized limbs does not allow you to use weapons you could not normally use due to size. Ie: you can't use a large two handed sword but you can use a large one handed weapon two handed with no penalty. So get weapon pro bastard sword and you're good.


Lemartes wrote:
Oversized limbs does not allow you to use weapons you could not normally use due to size. Ie: you can't use a large two handed sword but you can use a large one handed weapon two handed with no penalty. So get weapon pro bastard sword and you're good.

Please, read the whole thread before posting.


I did, skimmed it a bit too fast I see.

I think that is way over powered when the whole titan mauler class can't even do that. The new titan fighter or whatever it's called can but is at a massive negative to hit.


Lemartes wrote:
I think that is way over powered when the whole titan mauler class can't even do that. The new titan fighter or whatever it's called can but is at a massive negative to hit.

By standard rules you must roll for it, one from a hundred. And, well, it's just 2 damage on average, you can optimize around it, but getting a larger dice isn't powerful by itself.


I suppose but it seems hardly fair that it is way better than entire classes devoted to using large weapons.

As for rolling for it that's moot cause you are picking it.

Anyways, interesting build.

Silver Crusade

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Sergeek The Mad wrote:
Rodinia wrote:
No reach weapon?
I can't hit adjacent foes with those and having a low count of AoOs will render their utility. Also 20 crit range.

Obligatory rant whenever I encounter people who have not figured out that, when wielding a reach weapon, threatening adjacent is neither difficult nor important. :-) This is the first thing most people look to, when experience shows it simply doesn't matter. Not sure why this is.

Even with a low DEX and lacking Combat Reflexes you still get one AoO. This amounts to a possible extra attack each round, with one usually occurring in the first round or two of combat. This almost certainly amounts to far more extra damage than anything due from damage dice difference or crit. range. If your PC commonly uses reach tactics the difference is even more extreme. What's not to like?

Seriously, if you are actually trying to optimize damage numbers on a melee combatant, reach is generally the way to go. It's fine if that doesn't fit your concept, and instead choose to optimize a less optimal approach, but know that's what you are doing. Reach weapons are part of the military tradition of every culture since prehistory.

There's a reason polearms were a common primary historical battlefield weapon, for thousands of years, until the advent of guns. Pathfinder represents this advantage pretty well, mechanically speaking. The huge problem with polearms is that they must always be carried in hand, and can not be carried on the body in a way that leaves both hands free.

Swords and such were typically sidearms. A sidearm is a convenient secondary weapon you wear at your side when you don't have a primary battlefield weapon in hand.

People can go about their daily business wearing a sidearm. Not so when carrying a polearm, it's too bulky and inconvenient. You simply won't lug around a primary battlefield weapon unless your daily business involves being a murder hobo or an active-duty soldier. The same difference exists in the modern day: people can discreetly wear a pistol (possibly concealed) as a sidearm and go about their daily business, but tote around an M16 or AK47 in a city and people note you as either a soldier or a murder hobo. If you expect to be in battle you want the primary battlefield weapon, not just the sidearm.

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