A defensive AND damage dealing bloodrager build


Advice


I first thought of this build when I saw the Displacement power in the arcane bloodline, and the great synergy it would make with Come and Get Me (I hit you everytime you try to hit me, and even if you still get to attack me, see below, you have a 50% miss chance).

The concept of this build is to be almost untouchable, thanks to having Displacement and Image Mirror on when raging, complimented by high saves and a Pushing Assault/Come and Get me combo. I tried to play on the most synergies possible with the morale bonuses and a courageous weapon.

This char is level 12 atm, in a Skull and Shackles campaign.

Class: Bloodrager, Arcane bloodline

Archetypes : Metamagic Rager (spend rage rounds to add metamagic to a spell) and Primalist Rager (forbidden in PFS, trade bloodline powers for rage powers)

Race: Half-Orc (with Sacred Tatoo, +1 to saves), chosing the extra-rage rounds as favored class bonus

Traits: Fate’s Favored (+1 to saves) and Mindlessly Cruel (+1 to damage when a morale bonus to hit)

Stats:
Str 20 (+2 item)
Con 16
Dex 16 (+2 item)
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 15 (+2 item)

Feats:
Arcane Strike (+3 damage)
Bloodied Arcane Strike (Arcane Strike always on, doesn’t need to spend a Swift action)
Cornugon Smash (intimidate as a free action when hitting with a power attack)
Hurtful (attack at your full BAB with a swift action when you intimidate someone)
Grudge Fighter (+1 morale bonus to hit and damage against someone who attacked you)
Pushing Assault (push back a creature hit with a power attack instead of adding the power attack damage bonus)

Bonus Feats with Arcane Bloodline:
Power Attack
Quicken Spell
Combat Reflexes

Rage Powers (traded lvl4 and lvl12 arcane bloodline powers for those) :
Superstition (+5 to most saves)
Witch Hunter (+4 to damage against creatures with spells or spelllike abilities)
Reckless Abandon (the to hit penalty from power attack is instead applied to the AC)
Come and Get Me (opportunity attack before anyone attacks you in melee)

Notable gear : a +1 furious courageous greatsword, that always gets a Greater Magic Weapon cast upon it (I don’t have the money to get a +4 equivalent weapon atm :/), making it +5 when raging and adding +2 to all morale bonuses (saves from Superstition, attack rolls and damage rolls from Grudge Fighter, strength bonus and constitution bonus from rage). I also have a Quickrunner's Shirt for a once a day pounce. I’m pretty sure most level 12 characters are better equipped than this (having for example a belt with +4 strength).

So at level 12, when I rage I freely get Haste or Displacement and the benefit of a lvl1 or 2 spell (usually Mirror Image or Enlarge Person). On the 1st round if I choose to get a free Enlarge Person I’ll usually use my swift action to metarage a quickened Mirror Image (costs 10 rounds of rage).

I have 3 basic attacks at (Enlarged, with power attack and Reckless Abandon activated) +29/+29/+24, hitting at 3D6+43 damage per hit. If one of those connects and I intimidate with Cornugon Smash (I have +24 in Intimidate), I can use Hurtful to make another attack at +29 and 3D6+43 damage. If I don’t feel especially threatened I’ll be under Haste instead of Displacement and then get another attack at full BAB.

So I can, without adding any exterior buffs or potion or anything, hit as soon as 1st round with 5 attacks for 3D6+43 each.

I have in my spell list True Strike, Thunderstomp (ranged trip attempt), Blade Lash (same, shorter range but easier to land), Hydraulic Push (ranged bullrush attempt), Fly and Invisibility (bonus spell from arcane bloodline). So I can metarage a quickened Blade Lash for example, and then make a full round attack against the tripped opponent. I also have Certain Grip on my spell list (immunity to disarm and +4 CMD against trips and bull rushes) and Long Arms (another +5 feet reach). I sometimes metarage a quickened True Strike and then cast a Thunderstomp or Hydraulic Push, to be certain I'll succeed on the manoeuver (it's a nice trick when fighting on the deck of a ship :D).

It’s a very versatile build! But you have few spell slots and to cast quicken spells use a lot of rage rounds. Also Superstition is a double edged sword. So you have to be cautious and clever. I also think it's especially adapted to a Skull and Shackles campaign, where you often have only a few fights a day.

On the defensive side, appart from applying Displacement and Mirror Image as a free action at the start of the fight (which is already a great defense IMO), I use Come and Get Me, Pushing Assault and my greater reach from Enlarge Person (I can add another buff for another +5 feet reach, if needed) to push back any melee attacker even before they can attack me (the attack from Come and Get me occurring before his, and Pushing Assault allowing me to push him back 5 feet), thus cancelling their attacks as they’re not in reach anymore. I love to activate Come and Get Me and charge the caster behind the enemy ranks, punishing everyone who tries an opportunity attack and not taking any damage (again thanks to Come and Get Me and Pushing Assault). I can even hit twice at full BAB against someone trying an opportunity attack, if I still have my swift action available (with Cornugon Smash and Hurtful).

My saves are +26 fortitude, +19 Reflex and +18 Will, when raging. Not too bad I think (with a +3 Cloak of Resistance).

I hesitated between Come and Get Me/Reckless Abandon, and Spell Sunder/Eater of Magic or Strength Surge (to be sure to succeed those spell sunders). But as the bloodrager really don’t like rage cycling, I decided to go with the former.

Any thought or advice to make this build better? I’m thinking at level 13 to take the Razortusks feat, for another attack, or the Disruptive feat (to add to the 1st arcane bloodline power, meaning a -6 to concentration checks of casters in my threatened area). Or maybe Improved Critical (greatsword).

Silver Crusade

instead of a greatsword get a reach weapon, best way to be defensive is to smack things before they get to you.


rorek55 wrote:
instead of a greatsword get a reach weapon, best way to be defensive is to smack things before they get to you.

We have a Battle Oracle in the party, specced for trip and using a reach weapon, and honestly seeing how often he can't attack with his weapon because the target is adjacent to him (a tumbling rogue for example, so he has to use his spiked gauntlet but it's lot less efficient), I feel it would be very dangerous to use both a reach weapon and Come and get me.


Add the Cruel Weapon Enhancement to your sword. When you get a chance, Arcane Strike, Blooded Arcane Strike, and Riving Strike can really round out your intimidate debuff ability. You'll be applying a -6 penalty to saves. Any SoS Wizards will love to have you around.

A reach weapon isn't particularly helpful to hit build since he has come and get me active. If they make it past his initial hit he will have no way to defend against their attack. Pushing Assault can help with this, but he's sacrificing damage and if he misses they get past him. He's better off just sticking with Come and Get and a non-reach weapon. He will get enough AoO from Come and Get Me, so the reach weapon isn't necessary. Displacement + Mirror Image makes sure he isn't taking much damage.

You might consider retraining pushing assault to one of the feats I mentioned above.

Edit: Noticed you already have two of the three I mentioned. I would retrain Pushing Assault to Riving Strike.

I basically built this same character for a one shot and it was very effective. Also, being able to use wands of Infernal Healing on yourself made sure I was always topped off on healing.


I don't get why you don't take beast totem. The AC bonus and pounce would be better than maneuvers and intimidate trickery.

Just my opinion though.


sunbeam wrote:

I don't get why you don't take beast totem. The AC bonus and pounce would be better than maneuvers and intimidate trickery.

To get pounce and the AC bonus (I don't count on AC for defense though), I'd have to lose Superstition, Witch Hunter and Reckless Abandon. That means much lower saves (-7!!!), a little loss on damage and -4 on all my attacks. But really it's the saves that bother me.

It's great to full attack all around, but it's so easy to be screwed by a failed save. Again, my goal is to deal good damage AND have a good defense. An out of combat character doesn't kill anything.


Claxon wrote:


Edit: Noticed you already have two of the three I mentioned. I would retrain Pushing Assault to Riving Strike.

Trading a feat making me almost impervious to most melee ennemies for another -2 to saves... I'm really not sure. I thought about Riving Strike but didn't see the benefit for me. Our party has a witch with a DC 26 Slumber, so with the -2 from Shaken he already has a easy time landing his hexes.


With Riving Strike, Intimidate, and the Cruel weapon enhancement it's a -6 penalty to saves overall. It means your witch can do things other than slumber and have it work. Slumber is an effective single target debuff. But you're not always in range (30ft) and sometimes they save. Or you have to set it up with things like Misfortune first. You're -6 penalty to saves means he doesn't really need to misfortune first.

And pushing assault doesn't make you impervious to melee enemies. Enemies with reach weapons (when you don't have it) are still troublesome. Enemies who are large size and larger are immune to pushing assault. Depending on the campaign these thigns are common.

More importantly you're defeating yourself by using it. With Come and Get Me you generate more AoOs. More AoOs means more damage. You are protected by Displacement, Mirror Image, and AC (although your AC is probably very weak). You want the enemy to attack you as much as possible because you have a big ol' pool o' hit points and strong ways to mitigate damage. Remember, every attack they make provokes from Come and Get Me and you get to resolve your attack first. You want to deal them as much damage as possible as quickly as possibly. Pushing Assault causes the opposite to happen.


I can cast Enlarge or Long Arms freely (free buff when raging) or with a swift action (metarage quicken spell), so Pushing Assault usually works.

But it's true not always, and you're right when you say it may defeat the purpose of Come and Get Me, eventhough I'm not forced to use Pushing Assault on every attack (I can use it on my last attack, so I don't feel dumb with Come and Get Me activated but no more AoO and an opponent with attacks left). Also when you're the target of an AoO yourself (when moving to charge the wizard for example), using Pushing Assault may cancel it if you were at the limit of the ennemy threatened area (which is usually the case).
I may be too much on the defensive side though :/


Gauthier Descamps wrote:

Feats:

Arcane Strike (+3 damage)
Bloodied Arcane Strike (Arcane Strike always on, doesn’t need to spend a Swift action)

[...]

I have 3 basic attacks at (Enlarged, with power attack and Reckless Abandon activated) +29/+29/+24, hitting at 3D6+43 damage per hit.

You do 3D6+43 dmg per hit.

Are the +3 dmg from arcane strike really worth 2 feats? Or am I missing some other bonus effect?


Very nice idea, I've been toying with something similar myself. Couple of small points/suggestions.

Your damage and to hit numbers seem off. I see your attack breakdown as
Bab: 12
Strength while raging and enlarged (32): 11
Enhancement while raging with GMW: 5
Penalty for being large: -1
Total: 27

Damage breakdown
Weapon while enlarged: 3d6
Strength while raging and enlarged: 16
Power attack: 12
Arcane strike: 3
Enhancement while raging with GMW: 5
Total: 3d6+36 <-----This one seems big, something I'm missing?

Attack sequence 27/22/17 <-----Remember that second iterative!
Damage 3d6+36

Swapping the arcane strike feats for improved crit will increase your DPR and open up a feat. Obviously changing from a greatsword to a falchion will also help.

Also this bit of clarification on courageous will likely be of interest you:

http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=46128

Apparently according to Sean Reynolds courageous only adds to saves. Not an official errata though, so consult with your DM.


I think you may be placing a little too much emphasis on defense with Pushing Assault. Bloodrager's have big hit point pools, really only topped by Barbarians. But Arcane bloodrager's have much better damage mitigation with displacement and the ability to cast Mirror Image.

It just isn't necessary I think, to use Pushing Assault.

And MightyK brings up a good point, that you've spent 2 feats to add 3 damage with Arcane Strike and Blooded Arcane Strike. And Blooded Arcane Strike just saves you a swift action. What I am suggesting builds on it further by granting you Riving Strike.

Between Riving Strike, Shaken from Intimidate, and Sickened from Cruel.

Quote:
Cruel (weapon special ability): A cruel weapon feeds on fear and suffering. When the wielder strikes a creature that is frightened, shaken, or panicked with a cruel weapon, that creature becomes sickened for 1 round. When the wielder uses the weapon to knock unconscious or kill a creature, he gains 5 temporary hit points that last for 10 minutes.
Quote:
Sickened: The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Quote:
Shaken: A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.
Quote:

Riving Strike (Combat)

Benefit: If you have a weapon that is augmented by your Arcane Strike feat, when you damage a creature with an attack made with that weapon, that creature takes a –2 penalty on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. This effect lasts for 1 round.

Your enemies take a -6 to saves, a -4 to hit, a -2 to weapon damage rolls. If you have a save or suck caster its an awesome combo. Heck, with this combo you can even manage to use some of your spells offensively and successfully.

I just feel like this gives you much more to contribute to combat, than managing to avoid a little extra damage round. Because honestly, so long as you survive combat you'll be healed up to full hit points afterwards (in most cases).

Also, I'm not sure on your math for your damage.

Assuming 20 strength 5+(5/2) = 7, 10 while bloodraging. A bit more with courageous. + 12 Power attack that gets you to ~24. Arcane Strike gets you 27. Magic weapon damage will get you probably +3. You other assorted bonus maybe another +5. That gets you to 35. I don't see how you're reaching 43 though. Maybe I'm really missing something.

Also, you seem to have multiple things that give morale bonuses. But those don't stack. You only take the best bonus from any typed source. Courageous will apply to the best morale bonus, and you'll get to apply that to your total.


just gonna note: destined bloodline also aids in defensive power (scaling luck bonus to AC/saves, great accuracy). you can actually crossblood with arcane and get arcanes' tasty autobuffs alongside them, too.

example:
1 - destined (1 - destined strike)
4 - destined (4 - fated bloodrager)
8 - arcane ((4 - arcane bloodrage (or) 8 - greater arcane bloodrage)
12 - arcane (4 - arcane bloodrage (or) 8 - greater arcane bloodrage)
16 - arcane (16 - true arcane bloodrage)
20 - destined (16 - unstoppable (or) 20 - victory or death)

of course that doesnt play nice with trading out abilities for rage powers for CaGM


Being the battle oracle I can confirm, the character is scary, although I didn't knew the technical details of the rage-casting and the somewhat limited sustainability of the build through the day.

@Gauthier: it only takes 1 feat or revelations do gain the "trip build" on the oracle, so far from specialized, just thought it would be a nice option in a campaign full of human-sized foes. And i can still trip inside the guisarmes "reach", but the habit of blowing to pieces everything that get close means that the actions denial from tripping is less effective.
And : how the hell did you end up with these base stats ?


So, a little more details on the stats.

To hit :
Bab: +12
Str 20 base+6 rage+2 Enlarge+2 Courageous bonus=30= +10
Weapon +5 (+3 with greater magic weapon, +2 furious)
Size: -1
Power attack: -0 (but -4 to AC)
Grudge Fighter: +3 (+1 base and +2 Courageous bonus)
Total: +29

Damage :
Str: +15
Power Attack: +12
Weapon: +5
Arcane Strike: +3
Witch Hunter: +4 (but only against opponents with spells or spell-like abilities)
Grudge Fighter: +3 (+1 base and +2 Courageous bonus)
Mindlessly Cruel: +1
Total: +43

I checked to make sure all those bonuses stack.

Same for my saves (I didn't add Supersitition Bonus and the will bonus from rage for example, as they're both morale bonus).

Indeed Arcane Strike and Bloodied Arcane Strike are 2 feats for "only" +3 damage... but they have the same name than my bloodline so I thought it would be cool :)
It's true I could have taken Reckless Rage, +3 damage and -1 AC for a single feat.

@Wombat: hey :) Well my base stats are 14, 15, 14, 8, 10, 13. Added 2 points to STR from race, +2 from lvl up, +1 to CON from lvl up, and then items.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Gauthier Descamps wrote:

I can cast Enlarge or Long Arms freely (free buff when raging) or with a swift action (metarage quicken spell), so Pushing Assault usually works.

But it's true not always, and you're right when you say it may defeat the purpose of Come and Get Me, eventhough I'm not forced to use Pushing Assault on every attack (I can use it on my last attack, so I don't feel dumb with Come and Get Me activated but no more AoO and an opponent with attacks left). Also when you're the target of an AoO yourself (when moving to charge the wizard for example), using Pushing Assault may cancel it if you were at the limit of the ennemy threatened area (which is usually the case).
I may be too much on the defensive side though :/

You cannot cast Enlarge Person as a free buff while raging. Long Arms yes, Enlarge Person no.

Greater Bloodrage (Su): wrote:
At 11th level, when a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, the morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on his Will saves increases to +3. In addition, upon entering a bloodrage, the bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself. The spell must have a range of touch or personal. If the spell’s duration is greater than 1 round, it instead lasts for the duration of the bloodrage. This use consumes a bloodrager spell slot, as if he had cast the spell; he must have the spell slot available to take advantage of this effect.
Enlarge Person wrote:

Effect

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes


Oh you're totally right! I was sure Enlarge Person had Touch range. Guess I'll need to quicken it at the start of the fight and get Image Mirror as the free buff then (well "free" is relative, still have to spend a slot :/).


I made a halfling destined Primalist bloodrager with adabtable luck, Fates favored, the beast totem bloodline powers and both power attack and risky striker. He is strong both on offense and defense.
But i guess you want a Big guy:)


It's for a Skull and Shackles campaign, where most ennemies are human sized (so risky striker would be wasted). But in another campaign I'd really like to try your "mini-zerk" :) Which bloodline powers did you trade for your rage ones?


Level 8 and 12. The beast Line and CaGM.


AndIMustMask wrote:

just gonna note: destined bloodline also aids in defensive power (scaling luck bonus to AC/saves, great accuracy). you can actually crossblood with arcane and get arcanes' tasty autobuffs alongside them, too.

example:
1 - destined (1 - destined strike)
4 - destined (4 - fated bloodrager)
8 - arcane ((4 - arcane bloodrage (or) 8 - greater arcane bloodrage)
12 - arcane (4 - arcane bloodrage (or) 8 - greater arcane bloodrage)
16 - arcane (16 - true arcane bloodrage)
20 - destined (16 - unstoppable (or) 20 - victory or death)

of course that doesnt play nice with trading out abilities for rage powers for CaGM

I was actually looking into this build earlier today, out of curiosity. You look like you skipped both bloodline's level 12 abilities, as well as the arcane bloodline's 1st level ability. Your progression looks fantastic, but is it legal? I don't know enough about the class, so I'm just wondering.

Shadow Lodge

The Crossblooded archetype does not treat lower level bloodline powers as pre-requisites to the higher level ones. The only limitation is that you can only select powers available to a bloodrager at your level. It's perfectly legal to take the 8th level arcane power at level 12 and then jump to the 16th level arcane power at level 16 without ever taking the level 12 power.


Awesome, thanks for the clarification!

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