Gauthier Descamps's page

Your logic is flawed. My argument is precisely that the tarrasque doesn't have this feat because what you're explaining doesn't work that way, so you can't just say "yes it works that way but the tarrasque doesn't do it because it doesn't have the feat to make it a viable tactic". I'm not sure I'm clear, sorry for my english :/

It can often be a viable tactic: creatures with low strength but static damage bonuses for example, or a creature even with huge strength against a low AC or defenseless opponent. I haven't really looked into the bestiaries but I'll do and try to find good examples. By your last post, I understand that if a creature DPR is better with your weird rule, then it would be its major attack option and thus be the one included in its stat block, right?

And when I was talking about this tactic not appearing in any paizo material, I was thinking more along the line of a simple entry at the beginning of the bestiary (like "all creatures have the possibility of..." with the table of unarmed strike damage according to the creatures size). Of course not in every stat block!

Finally, you gave me the example of a bird smashing a window with his body to say that all creatures can do it and that it's realistic, but if it doesn't have improved unarmed strike how is it breaking a window with non lethal damage? :)

As I already stated, don't you honestly think a creature such as the tarrasque would have improved unarmed strike if it was working like this? So the AoO are irrelevant.

You're both saying those statistics are perfectly legit for the tarrasque?
bite +32 (4d8+7/15–20/×3 plus grab), 2 claws +32 (1d12+7), 2 gores +32 (1d10+7), tail slap +32 (3d8+7), unarmed strike +37/+32/+27/+22/+17/+12 (2d6+7)

Or for a tyrannosaurus, instead of bite +20 (4d6+22/19–20 plus grab), you'd have bite +15 (4d6+11), unarmed +20/+15/+10 (1d8+5)

I don't know, I feel there's something wrong with that. And really easy to manipulate (with static bonuses to damage, it's true that when you only factor in Strength bonus it's not THAT overpowered) to make all melee characters want to polymorph. And again, I've never seen any official paizo material with iterative unarmed strikes added this way, when a few static damage bonuses (such as +xd6 from fire, +2 from moral, +3 from arcane strike etc) would be enough to make it worthwile and thus a viable configuration. Or when an opponent is helpless or have a low AC: in such case it's often more beneficial to add the iterative unarmed strikes (it is for the tarrasque and the tyrannosaurus for example). Yet I've never seen it done, explained, specified etc in any paizo material that it was a possibility.

That's about proficiency, what does it have to do with the matter at hand? Besides it's about "characters" who are always humanoids, if it was applied to everything it would say "creatures".

Do you really want us to compare the tarrasque in my version of pathfinder (the tarrasque as listed in the bestiary) and the terrasque in your version of the game (the tarrasque with full iterative unarmed strikes and all its natural attacks as seconday)? The 2nd version will of course deal much better DPR, so if it's not the configuration listed in the bestiary it must be for a reason. That reason is, simply put, that it doesn't work.

Avoid the "unarmed strikes draw AoO", who would think a monster such as this wouldn't have improved unarmed strike IF your version of the rules was the correct one?

Another question that should settle it: are you able to tell me how much damage the unarmed strike of a tarrasque does? You won't be able to without referring to the table in the universal monster rules with slam damage by size which is titled... "natural attacks by size". Natural attacks. And I don't need to remind you the rules about natural attacks and polymorph.

So you're basically saying all monsters in the bestiary, Tarrasque included, are able to perform full iterative unarmed strikes in addition to their natural attacks (which will become secondary). I've never seen anything like the mechanic you're defending, and the basis of this songbird build, in any Paizo material so I'm not convinced. it's both illogical, irrealistic, ridiculous flavor wise and not supported by any official material.

What you describe is a bird making a bullrush against a window, not a bird making kung-fu with 5-6 body attacks AND his natural attacks.

There's a reason why monsters in the bestiary don't have full iterative unarmed strikes in addition to their natural attacks (eventhough you're saying all creatures can make them), and that's because their natural attacks ARE their unarmed strikes. So why would you keep your old unarmed strikes AND gain your new form's ones when you polymorph?

Anyway that wasn't the point of this thread. But it cracks me up to see people objecting to an ape using tools (which is quite realistic AND is in the rules, see the Derhii), but not to a monk transformed into a songbird making his old kung-fu moves AND his new form's natural attacks (I guess his years of martial practice with his former body were for nothing, as he can do the exact same moves the second he assumes a completely new and different form).

Thanks guys it's quite clear now.

@meabolex: First, there's the Derhii (bestiary 3) which is described as a "flying ape" and which is using a falchion and javelins.
Second, there's a popular thread right now in the Advice section where no one objects to a songbird (thread "songbird of doom") being able to proficiently make a humanoid monk's martial moves. And that's a LOT more ridiculous and illogical than an ape using a tool.

I had a doubt because a well referenced guide on polymorphism states: "If your new form is capable of using your gear, then it transforms along with you to accommodate the new
shape of your body and continues to function as normal"
Guide: On Skin Changing
About the actions, as I'm changing form as a free action (when I enter rage), I figured it would be instantaneous and thus I would only need another free action to close my grip on the weapon again, not pick it up on the ground or retrieve it from a scabbard or whatever.

I hijacked another thread with this question but I think it would be better to make a new thread.

If a Bloodrager holding a bardiche turns into a Dire Ape or Girallon (the 1st is a large animal, the 2nd a large magical beast) by way of the 16th level arcane bloodline power, can he keep his bardiche or does it meld into the new form?
Because some sources say morphing into an animal or magical beast always melds your gear into your new form, other sources say the gear melds if it can't be used by your new form (and a Dire Ape or Girallon can, IMO, use a weapon).

Edit: and if it doesn't meld, can the Bloodrager use a free action to release the grip on his weapon, another free action to rage and morph and a last free action to grip his weapon again (as the weapon didn't have time to fall to the ground)? When he morph the bardiche is no longer "his gear" so it doesn't meld, and there's nothing stating something you once possessed melds into your new form when you pick it up again. Is it right?

If a Bloodrager holding a bardiche turns into a Dire Ape or Girallon (the 1st is a large animal, the 2nd a large magical beast) by way of the 16th level arcane bloodline power, can he keep his bardiche or does it meld into the new form?
Because some sources say morphing into an animal or magical beast always melds your gear into your new form, other sources say the gear melds if it can't be used by your new form (and a Dire Ape or Girallon can, IMO, use a weapon).

Edit: and if it doesn't meld, can the Bloodrager use a free action to release the grip on his weapon, another free action to rage and morph and a last free action to grip his weapon again (as the weapon didn't have time to fall to the ground)? When he morph the bardiche is no longer "his gear" so it doesn't meld, and there's nothing stating something you once possessed melds into your new form when you pick it up again. Is it right?

It's clearly INTENDED for the Swashbuckler to be able to take Signature Deed, if not specifically written, so it's left to interpretation. But as someone with the Amateur Gunslinger feat can't take Signature Deed, I don't think it's intended that someone with Amateur Swashbuckler (or the Daring Champion archetype) can take Signature Deed.
The prerequisite is a class, not just having that class feature.

Technically, a Swashbuckler can't take the Signature Deed feat either.

The Precise Strike class feature specifically says you can't take the Signature Deed for this deed, meaning you can normally take it. Yes, that's debatable but it's even less sure that you can take this feat as a Daring Champion or as an amateur gunslinger.

I don't think you can take Signature Deed for Cheat Death, as it doesn't cost a specified number of points but all your remaining points.

The Daring Champion can't take the Signature Deed feat, which, when applied to Opportune Parry and Riposte, makes the swashbuckler almost invulnerable against melee-type opponents and increases his dpr by a ton.
He also can't fully use the Cape of Feinting, which is an automatic, no save, usable every round daze (until it gets errata'd, which is pretty sure to happen considering how it's OP).

Yeah if you plan to cast a lot (summoned monsters and Inspired Rage work wonders!) it's better not to take the totemic skald archetype, as Spell Kenning gives amazing utility (Animate Dead for example).
The Fated Champion archetype is great for a caster skald (half your level to your Init, among other things).

Feats for a Skald :
- Lingering Performance allows the effects of your Inspired Rage to continue a few rounds even if you're stunned, knocked uncounscious, etc.
- Extra Rage Power
- Skald's Vigor (gives you Fast Healing according to the bonus of your Inspired Rage)
- Greater Skald's Vigor, that gives your Fast Healing to all your allies, though you must be level 10 for this feat

As for traits, Community Minded seems to suit your character concept and has basically the same effect as Lingering Performance, thus saving you one feat.

That's why the Arcane bloodline is so great, barbarians/bloodragers don't usually have problem dealing damage, but have troubles not going down. At level 8 the Arcane bloodline allows you to have Displacement on you when raging. That's better than a high AC and let you concentrate on dealing damage.

Totemic Skald with Bull Focus (+strength to your allies, cumulative with the strength morale bonus Inspired Rage already gives), and Skald's Vigor and Improved Skald's Vigor will give, at level 2, +4 strength and Fast Healing 4 to your party, increasing both to 8 at level 8 and 14 at level 16.
Though with Totemic Skald you'll lose Spell Kenning (which is awesome, imo) and the level 3 rage power.
For rage powers, you can take Strength Surge and Savage Dirty Tricks, allowing your allies to use them every round to chain-stun targets (if you twist your song off and on every round, as those powers are once per Inspired Rage), as soon as level 6. At level 7 beginning a song becomes a move action and so you can twist your Inspired Rage more easily.

Spirit Totem rage powers are really nice, especially if your party members have familiars, minions, companions, summoned creatures etc

Also, as soon as you get Spell Kenning you can become a "necro-skald" (you can cast Animate Dead). If your GM agrees that the "undead barbarian" rule in the Monster Codex applies to all undeads, you can walk with 4x your caster level in 1HD skeletons that will benefit from your raging song (and thus all give you the attack and automatic damage of the Spirit Totem powers). Your undeads are weak, but with Linnorm Death Curse Tor, your enemies have to make a save when they kill one or become permanently staggered!

If you're interested I explain this build (that I call The Bone Dancer) here The Bone Dancer

If you want a more traditional skald, Strength Surge and Savage Dirty Tricks are great, as your party members and pets can now chain-stun their target (remember you can twist your song off and on every round to allow them to use those 2 powers repeatedly).

Go with a Skald, best buffer for a party with many melee guys (much better than a bard). They'll love you for giving them Pounce (and more strength, fast healing, haste, DR...). He has full caster level and same spells as a Bard, so I guess that makes him "a caster".

Lesser Undead Blood rage power (target hit by your charge is shaken, no save) and Improved Dirge of Doom (enemies are shaken, or panicked if already shaken, no save, 60ft range) is a great combo. Not with the Fated Champion archetype though, as you lose Dirge of Doom.

About using reach weapons: can you make AoO when you're casting a spell with a full round action (such as summon monster and spell kenning)? As I understand it you cast until the start of your next round, so I'm not sure you're able to AoO meanwhile.
Combat Reflexes is hard to make room for, the skald is really feat starved (the rage powers are just too good).

A bloodrager1/oracle2/skald9 can give fast healing 28 to 2 party members, 14 to the others and 4 to himself (tumor familiar and amplified rage, lesser celestial totem and life link).

Also, if you take the Totemic Skald archetype and choose Bear as the animal focus power, you give another +2 (Enhancement) bonus to Strength (+4 at lvl8). And as Skald's Vigor works with ALL types of strength bonuses as along as they come from your song, it will add to the Fast healing gained.

If you (or another caster in your party) plan on summoning creatures, a great rage power for skalds is Linnorm Death Curse, Tor. It adds 1 fire damage to all attacks but more importantly it forces anything that kills your creature (or drop you or one of your teamates) to succeed on a WILL save (10+half the creature level+YOUR charisma, as explicitly stated by skald's rage powers description) or become vulnerable to fire and staggered... permanently!
You can also take the feat that make all your sonic spell deal fire damage instead, to benefit from that fire vulnerability (I don't remember the name of the feat, it's in the advanced class guide).
The Spirit Totem Line is also great, especially if you go all the way to the greater one (one attack from lesser spirit totem and 1D8 damage automatically thanks to the greater one to all ennemies adjacent to each ally... if you have 4 summoned creatures around an ennemy, that's 4D8 damage each round AND 4 attacks at 1D4+your charisma thanks to the lesser spirit totem power, and if the ennemy kills one of the creature he might get the Linnorm Curse. That would mean no more full attack, and if you can keep summoning creatures to surround him... you see where I'm going :)

It's for a Skull and Shackles campaign, where most ennemies are human sized (so risky striker would be wasted). But in another campaign I'd really like to try your "mini-zerk" :) Which bloodline powers did you trade for your rage ones?

Oh you're totally right! I was sure Enlarge Person had Touch range. Guess I'll need to quicken it at the start of the fight and get Image Mirror as the free buff then (well "free" is relative, still have to spend a slot :/).

So, a little more details on the stats.

To hit :
Bab: +12
Str 20 base+6 rage+2 Enlarge+2 Courageous bonus=30= +10
Weapon +5 (+3 with greater magic weapon, +2 furious)
Size: -1
Power attack: -0 (but -4 to AC)
Grudge Fighter: +3 (+1 base and +2 Courageous bonus)
Total: +29

Damage :
Str: +15
Power Attack: +12
Weapon: +5
Arcane Strike: +3
Witch Hunter: +4 (but only against opponents with spells or spell-like abilities)
Grudge Fighter: +3 (+1 base and +2 Courageous bonus)
Mindlessly Cruel: +1
Total: +43

I checked to make sure all those bonuses stack.

Same for my saves (I didn't add Supersitition Bonus and the will bonus from rage for example, as they're both morale bonus).

Indeed Arcane Strike and Bloodied Arcane Strike are 2 feats for "only" +3 damage... but they have the same name than my bloodline so I thought it would be cool :)
It's true I could have taken Reckless Rage, +3 damage and -1 AC for a single feat.

@Wombat: hey :) Well my base stats are 14, 15, 14, 8, 10, 13. Added 2 points to STR from race, +2 from lvl up, +1 to CON from lvl up, and then items.

I can cast Enlarge or Long Arms freely (free buff when raging) or with a swift action (metarage quicken spell), so Pushing Assault usually works.

But it's true not always, and you're right when you say it may defeat the purpose of Come and Get Me, eventhough I'm not forced to use Pushing Assault on every attack (I can use it on my last attack, so I don't feel dumb with Come and Get Me activated but no more AoO and an opponent with attacks left). Also when you're the target of an AoO yourself (when moving to charge the wizard for example), using Pushing Assault may cancel it if you were at the limit of the ennemy threatened area (which is usually the case).
I may be too much on the defensive side though :/

Edit: Noticed you already have two of the three I mentioned. I would retrain Pushing Assault to Riving Strike.

Trading a feat making me almost impervious to most melee ennemies for another -2 to saves... I'm really not sure. I thought about Riving Strike but didn't see the benefit for me. Our party has a witch with a DC 26 Slumber, so with the -2 from Shaken he already has a easy time landing his hexes.

I don't get why you don't take beast totem. The AC bonus and pounce would be better than maneuvers and intimidate trickery.

To get pounce and the AC bonus (I don't count on AC for defense though), I'd have to lose Superstition, Witch Hunter and Reckless Abandon. That means much lower saves (-7!!!), a little loss on damage and -4 on all my attacks. But really it's the saves that bother me.

instead of a greatsword get a reach weapon, best way to be defensive is to smack things before they get to you.

We have a Battle Oracle in the party, specced for trip and using a reach weapon, and honestly seeing how often he can't attack with his weapon because the target is adjacent to him (a tumbling rogue for example, so he has to use his spiked gauntlet but it's lot less efficient), I feel it would be very dangerous to use both a reach weapon and Come and get me.

I first thought of this build when I saw the Displacement power in the arcane bloodline, and the great synergy it would make with Come and Get Me (I hit you everytime you try to hit me, and even if you still get to attack me, see below, you have a 50% miss chance).

The concept of this build is to be almost untouchable, thanks to having Displacement and Image Mirror on when raging, complimented by high saves and a Pushing Assault/Come and Get me combo. I tried to play on the most synergies possible with the morale bonuses and a courageous weapon.

This char is level 12 atm, in a Skull and Shackles campaign.

Class: Bloodrager, Arcane bloodline

Archetypes : Metamagic Rager (spend rage rounds to add metamagic to a spell) and Primalist Rager (forbidden in PFS, trade bloodline powers for rage powers)

Race: Half-Orc (with Sacred Tatoo, +1 to saves), chosing the extra-rage rounds as favored class bonus

Traits: Fate’s Favored (+1 to saves) and Mindlessly Cruel (+1 to damage when a morale bonus to hit)

Stats:
Str 20 (+2 item)
Con 16
Dex 16 (+2 item)
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 15 (+2 item)

Feats:
Arcane Strike (+3 damage)
Bloodied Arcane Strike (Arcane Strike always on, doesn’t need to spend a Swift action)
Cornugon Smash (intimidate as a free action when hitting with a power attack)
Hurtful (attack at your full BAB with a swift action when you intimidate someone)
Grudge Fighter (+1 morale bonus to hit and damage against someone who attacked you)
Pushing Assault (push back a creature hit with a power attack instead of adding the power attack damage bonus)

Bonus Feats with Arcane Bloodline:
Power Attack
Quicken Spell
Combat Reflexes

Rage Powers (traded lvl4 and lvl12 arcane bloodline powers for those) :
Superstition (+5 to most saves)
Witch Hunter (+4 to damage against creatures with spells or spelllike abilities)
Reckless Abandon (the to hit penalty from power attack is instead applied to the AC)
Come and Get Me (opportunity attack before anyone attacks you in melee)

Notable gear : a +1 furious courageous greatsword, that always gets a Greater Magic Weapon cast upon it (I don’t have the money to get a +4 equivalent weapon atm :/), making it +5 when raging and adding +2 to all morale bonuses (saves from Superstition, attack rolls and damage rolls from Grudge Fighter, strength bonus and constitution bonus from rage). I also have a Quickrunner's Shirt for a once a day pounce. I’m pretty sure most level 12 characters are better equipped than this (having for example a belt with +4 strength).

So at level 12, when I rage I freely get Haste or Displacement and the benefit of a lvl1 or 2 spell (usually Mirror Image or Enlarge Person). On the 1st round if I choose to get a free Enlarge Person I’ll usually use my swift action to metarage a quickened Mirror Image (costs 10 rounds of rage).

I have 3 basic attacks at (Enlarged, with power attack and Reckless Abandon activated) +29/+29/+24, hitting at 3D6+43 damage per hit. If one of those connects and I intimidate with Cornugon Smash (I have +24 in Intimidate), I can use Hurtful to make another attack at +29 and 3D6+43 damage. If I don’t feel especially threatened I’ll be under Haste instead of Displacement and then get another attack at full BAB.

So I can, without adding any exterior buffs or potion or anything, hit as soon as 1st round with 5 attacks for 3D6+43 each.

I have in my spell list True Strike, Thunderstomp (ranged trip attempt), Blade Lash (same, shorter range but easier to land), Hydraulic Push (ranged bullrush attempt), Fly and Invisibility (bonus spell from arcane bloodline). So I can metarage a quickened Blade Lash for example, and then make a full round attack against the tripped opponent. I also have Certain Grip on my spell list (immunity to disarm and +4 CMD against trips and bull rushes) and Long Arms (another +5 feet reach). I sometimes metarage a quickened True Strike and then cast a Thunderstomp or Hydraulic Push, to be certain I'll succeed on the manoeuver (it's a nice trick when fighting on the deck of a ship :D).

It’s a very versatile build! But you have few spell slots and to cast quicken spells use a lot of rage rounds. Also Superstition is a double edged sword. So you have to be cautious and clever. I also think it's especially adapted to a Skull and Shackles campaign, where you often have only a few fights a day.

On the defensive side, appart from applying Displacement and Mirror Image as a free action at the start of the fight (which is already a great defense IMO), I use Come and Get Me, Pushing Assault and my greater reach from Enlarge Person (I can add another buff for another +5 feet reach, if needed) to push back any melee attacker even before they can attack me (the attack from Come and Get me occurring before his, and Pushing Assault allowing me to push him back 5 feet), thus cancelling their attacks as they’re not in reach anymore. I love to activate Come and Get Me and charge the caster behind the enemy ranks, punishing everyone who tries an opportunity attack and not taking any damage (again thanks to Come and Get Me and Pushing Assault). I can even hit twice at full BAB against someone trying an opportunity attack, if I still have my swift action available (with Cornugon Smash and Hurtful).

My saves are +26 fortitude, +19 Reflex and +18 Will, when raging. Not too bad I think (with a +3 Cloak of Resistance).

I hesitated between Come and Get Me/Reckless Abandon, and Spell Sunder/Eater of Magic or Strength Surge (to be sure to succeed those spell sunders). But as the bloodrager really don’t like rage cycling, I decided to go with the former.

Any thought or advice to make this build better? I’m thinking at level 13 to take the Razortusks feat, for another attack, or the Disruptive feat (to add to the 1st arcane bloodline power, meaning a -6 to concentration checks of casters in my threatened area). Or maybe Improved Critical (greatsword).