I am a new GM putting a group through the Council of Thieves story. One of the players rolled up a Human Gunslinger with Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and using Alchemical rounds. He pretty much moves to a vantage point and destroys the NPCs before any other party members can get any offense in for themselves. A musket doing 1d12 vs Touch seems crazy, and it will only get worse as he levels up. I am using the Emerging Guns game setting that is recommended in the book for Golarion.
Has anyone come up with a more balanced method of running Firearms in their campaigns? I didn't want to put any restrictions on what Paizo books the players could use, but the gun issue already has some players concerned that he will pretty much steal the show for the entire Adventure Path.
Thanks in advance!
I ran a PF homebrew campaign with a Human Pistolero, Half-Orc Monk with a greataxe, Tiefling Rogue with twin kukris, Dwarf Inquisitor with a big giant reach flail, and Elf Rogue archer (later replaced by Half-orc Red Draconic Sorcerer pyromaniac).
Anyways, the gunslinger was definitely consistent with his damage, but for the first four levels, he only did 1d8 with maybe a +1 for Point Blank Shot. The rest of the party probably hit a little less frequently, but did higher damage when they did, so it was pretty even. He definitely didn't outshine the rest of the party. Even the Elf Rogue was a match for both accuracy and damage.
After 5th level, he could add his Dex to damage, which more than doubled his average damage, but everyone else's damage increased from bane, 3d6 sneak attacks, flurry of blows (not with the greataxe, obviously!), etc. etc. At 6th level, he did get his iterative attack, but even then he was pretty balanced.
I run a Pistolero in my brother in laws game. I found them to be fairly balanced. With misifires, having to reload and no dex to damage until 4th or 5th level (cant remember). Sure he will hit a lot, but guns just don't do enough damage.
Their x4 crits are fun, though! :-)
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I'm assuming it is the standard I have Rapid Shot and can use it at 3rd level Musket Master build you see in PFS. It is strong. It is comparable to things like Zen Archers and Blockbuster Wizards. If the other party members are mid-op melee types it will indeed cause the imbalance you are fearing. I would either help the other players make stronger builds or politely ask the gunslinger player to make something less powerful.
Or remember to have your NPCs use cover. +2 to +4 to AC is pretty significant (from 1/4 and 1/2 cover). The melee types can pretty much maneuver around cover, but it will be tougher for the musketeer.
Also, gunslingers are kind of like 3.5 warlocks. They're pretty much one-trick ponies with some neat carrier effects. I remember when warlocks first came out, they seemed super powerful since they had an at will damaging ray. But then once they were seen in play, they were actually pretty balanced. Easy to play, but very limited.
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I completely agree with what Greg and others said above.
It may be that you have not been enforcing all the rules around missile weapons and guns. It may completely solve your problem if you strictly enforce issues like cover, reload time, misfires, wet powder, cost of ammo, exposed cartridges taking fire damage, et cetera. It's easy for a player to forget about such things.
As long as you don't let him use a double barrelled gun, for which the rules haven't been properly and consistently written, it should be ok overall.
Remember that a gunslinger who fails a will save vs confusion or dominate is very dangerous to his own party...
I am a new GM putting a group through the Council of Thieves story. One of the players rolled up a Human Gunslinger with Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and using Alchemical rounds. He pretty much moves to a vantage point and destroys the NPCs before any other party members can get any offense in for themselves. A musket doing 1d12 vs Touch seems crazy, and it will only get worse as he levels up. I am using the Emerging Guns game setting that is recommended in the book for Golarion.
Has anyone come up with a more balanced method of running Firearms in their campaigns? I didn't want to put any restrictions on what Paizo books the players could use, but the gun issue already has some players concerned that he will pretty much steal the show for the entire Adventure Path.
Thanks in advance!
Is he using an archetype or the base gunslinger?
Also how is he killing everyone before someone gets to him? He only get one attack per round.
PS: Having played council of thieves starting toward the end of book 1 he should be in positions to be attacked if the AP is only sending one enemy at time currently.
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Touch AC is a big advantage yes, and Deadeye deed lets you do this at a distance further than the weapon's range increment, at the cost of 1 grit point.
It's not unbalanced though, because the gunslinger is poor for damage until he reaches level 5.
Alchemical cartridges are legal but at low level they will deplete his gold fast, even if the DM gives him the time off to craft his own cartridges. Remember that he must have at least 1 rank in Craft Alchemy in order to craft his own cartridges...
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People talk about low damage, really? A musket does d12, and because it's so easy to hit you can max deadly aim and most criticals are being confirmed.
Yeah, really. Average damage on a d12 with no STR or DEX is 6.5. Average damage for a 1st level rogue sneak attacking with a rapier and a 12 STR is 9. Average damage for a greataxe wielding Fighter with a 16 STR is 10.5. Average damage for a raging barbarian with a greatsword and a base STR of 18 is 16. And at low levels you've got standard enemies like goblins, whose touch AC is almost the same as their regular AC, and zombies, whose DR hurts the Gunslinger more than anyone else.
That d12 is nothing until DEX to damage and additional attacks come online.
That being said, the Gunslinger does scale insanely better than other martial classes since he targets the only defense that actually decreases on average as the party increases in level. Musket-wielding Gunslingers are probably the least worrisome GS builds as the game goes on though, since the number of attacks they can squeeze in is much more limited than their Pistolero counterparts and there ability to decent amounts of reliable damage to a single target is nice, but not crazy. It's double-barrel wielding Pistoleros who can drive the damage completely outside of normal expected bounds.
Unfortunately, the whole firearm subsystem is just kind of a poorly conceived mess at this point, but recognizing what and where the issues really are can make it easier to deal with.
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I don’t have a problem if it was a simple ignore 5pts of AC due to armor, that would be still amazing! But ALL, it’s a little overpowered.
Hey, what about the Iron Golem? to a gunslinger, he's more aptly called "Butter Golem" :)
Seriously, I raised that point during the playtest but that was ignored. Armor bonus should have been bypassed but not natural armor bonuses (which most thick skinned / carapace / metal monsters have)
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Unfortunately, the whole firearm subsystem is just kind of a poorly conceived mess at this point, but recognizing what and where the issues really are can make it easier to deal with.
Yes, and my rogue (pirate) 2 / gunslinger (siege gunner) 5 with DEX 24 and INT 16 know what he's doing! ;)
Ranged Distance Dragon Pistol +1 +14/+9 (1d6+8) 20/x4 CM +1; scatter 20-foot cone (pellets); [MF] 1-2 (5 ft); Range 20 ft. (bullet)
Ranged Merciful Dragon Pistol +1 +14/+9 (1d6+8 [+1d6 NLD]) 20/x4 CM +1; scatter 20-foot cone (pellets); [MF] 1-2 (5 ft); deals nonlethal damage; Range 10 ft. (bullet)
Ranged Masterwork Double Hackbutt +14/+9 (2d12) 20/x4 CM +1; [MF] 1-2 (5 ft); [C] 2; Range 50 ft. (bullet) - equipped with Far-reaching Sight
Ranged Masterwork Dragon Pistol +14/+9 (1d6+7) 20/x4 CM +1; scatter 20-foot cone (pellets); [MF] 1-2 (5 ft); Range 10 ft. (bullet)
Ranged Masterwork Double-Barreled Musket +14/+9 (1d12) 20/x4 CM +1; [MF] 1-3 (5 ft); [C] 2; Range 40 ft. (bullet)
Siege Engine Direct +13
Siege Engine Indirect +22
Special Attacks: Sneak Attack [1d6], Swinging Reposition (Ex), Targeted Blast, Scattershot, Pistol-Whip, Gun Training (Dragon Pistol)
Feats: Armor Proficiency (LIGHT), Deft Shootist Deed, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), Gunsmithing, Mobility, Rapid Reload, Sea Legs, Siege Engineer, Skill Focus (Profession (sailor)
==Magic==
Eq'd Magic: Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Endless Bandolier, Boots of the Cat, Gloves of Reconnaissane, Besmara's Tricorne, Death's Head Talisman (10 HD), Ring of Swimming (R), Shawl of Life-Keeping, Handy Haversack, tracer bullets x10, oil of silence x5, dry load powder horn, Far-reaching Sight (installed on double hackbutt or double-barreled musket), Wand of Abundant Ammunition (usable by other party member)
Ioun Stones: Dusty Rose Prism, Typical (in Wayfinder)
Misc: Ioun Torch, Potions, cartridges (regular, dragon's breath, entangling shot, flare), bullets (regular, adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron, ghost salted), mundane items including extra powder horn and black powder keg
Also, the other side of this is... If the rest of the party is underperforming. It isn't the gunslingers fault. Many many times "this class is seemingly overpowered" comes from groups where the rest of the group is far from being anything regarded as optimized. If the rest of the party is built well, the "seemingly broken" one doesn't shine nearly as bright as it seemed to.
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For the OP, you can also have fun with the gunslinger acting as an alarm for all nearby creatures. Firearms are not quiet by nature and if there are groups of creatures who start hearing (i.e. make successful Perception checks) various explosions within their base / lair / etc. the PCs could find themselves matched up against a larger than anticipated, organized force.
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For the OP, you can also have fun with the gunslinger acting as an alarm for all nearby creatures. Firearms are not quiet by nature and if there are groups of creatures who start hearing (i.e. make successful Perception checks) various explosions within their base / lair / etc. the PCs could find themselves matched up against a larger than anticipated, organized force.
oil of silence
For the OP, you can also have fun with the gunslinger acting as an alarm for all nearby creatures. Firearms are not quiet by nature and if there are groups of creatures who start hearing (i.e. make successful Perception checks) various explosions within their base / lair / etc. the PCs could find themselves matched up against a larger than anticipated, organized force.oil of silence
Very true. If they are prepared they can silence the weapon.
Assuming the enemies have seen the gunners or have been shot, they know that they need to get distance and cover from the gun (SNIPER! GET DOWN!). The ideal defense is the spell protection against bullets for DR 10 effectively Afaik. Not everyone has that, though. If the enemies don't adapt their strategies to counter gun users and/or use guns themselves, then the same strategy will continue to work in the gunslinger Pc's favor.
Also wind wall blocks ranged attacks. It's a good defense plan for all levels.
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Also, the other side of this is... If the rest of the party is underperforming. It isn't the gunslingers fault. Many many times "this class is seemingly overpowered" comes from groups where the rest of the group is far from being anything regarded as optimized. If the rest of the party is built well, the "seemingly broken" one doesn't shine nearly as bright as it seemed to.
This can definitely be a factor as well. The Gunslinger is relatively easy to optimize, with his class features basically spelling out how to build him. Much like the Paladin, he only really needs two stats to be highly effective. Classes like the Fighter, Rogue, Monk, or even Wizard, who all have tons of options (not all of which are good, or even decent) and some of whose class features can be counter-intuitive to creating a solid build, can often make it seem like there's a much greater disparity between similar classes than there actually is.
What's the composition of the party that this gunslinger is showing up?
Also, the other side of this is... If the rest of the party is underperforming. It isn't the gunslingers fault. Many many times "this class is seemingly overpowered" comes from groups where the rest of the group is far from being anything regarded as optimized. If the rest of the party is built well, the "seemingly broken" one doesn't shine nearly as bright as it seemed to.This can definitely be a factor as well. The Gunslinger is relatively easy to optimize, with his class features basically spelling out how to build him. Much like the Paladin, he only really needs two stats to be highly effective. Classes like the Fighter, Rogue, Monk, or even Wizard, who all have tons of options (not all of which are good, or even decent) and some of whose class features can be counter-intuitive to creating a solid build, can often make it seem like there's a much greater disparity between similar classes than there actually is.
What's the composition of the party that this gunslinger is showing up?
Fighter
BardGunslinger
Alchemist
Cleric
Sorcerer
I have increased the amount of generic NPCs in each encounter due to there being six in the party and the only one to pose a problem so far were Zombies. (DR5/Slashing)
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Fighter
Bard
Gunslinger
Alchemist
Cleric
SorcererI have increased the amount of generic NPCs in each encounter due to there being six in the party and the only one to pose a problem so far were Zombies. (DR5/Slashing)
At the levels you're indicating, I would expect all of those classes (except possibly the bard, depending on build) to match or exceed the Gunslinger's performance. I suspect that the the discrepancy exists in the realms of system mastery and playstyle disparity more than class disparity.
That being said, we use a penetration rating system instead of allowing firearms to target touch AC. One-handed early firearms have PR 2, two-handed early firearms have PR 4. PR allows you to ignore up to your rating in armor, natural armor, and/or shield bonuses to AC (totaled first; a gunslinger targeting a Paladin with a 20 AC resulting from an armor bonus of +8 and a shield bonus of +2 would need to hit an 18 with a pistol).
You add your weapon's enhancement bonus to its PR, so a +5 pistol has PR 7.
That's worked well for our group and been something that everyone felt was a good balance between realism and basic game balance.
What level is this game currently at?
Levels 1-2 a Musket Master should be reloading for his one attack at a move action.
3+ it is a free action as long as his last grit is not spent.
But, remember he then misfires on a 1-3 unless using reliable, greater reliable or being a dwarf.
This is all assuming Rapid Reload + Musket Master + Alchemical Cartridge.
Also I would like to point out that 1D12 +1 vs touch is not that much greater than say 1D8 + 6 vs normal AC.
As long as you don't let him use a double barrelled gun, for which the rules haven't been properly and consistently written, it should be ok overall.
Remember that a gunslinger who fails a will save vs confusion or dominate is very dangerous to his own party...
Dominate won't make you do anything obviously self destructive. It will give you a new save each time you are told to do something you normally wouldn't do. Attempting to murder your friend while he's actively protecting you from harm absolutely counts as the second and it would take a lot to convince me that the first doesn't apply as well.
I can tell you I play a Ratfolk gunslinger musketeer, complete with bayonet and tailblade.
Things I learned.
1. Guns are loud, and gunshots echo ... especially in close confines like dungeon corridors - guarantee once I fire everything in a very large radius is on high alert.
2. Because guns are loud if I'm not wearing earplugs or some sort of protection I can deafen myself and/or become dazed from the noise.
3. Those high levels of noise can affect other party members as well and they will not thank you for it.
4. Ammo is an expensive proposition even when/if you can make your own.
5. You have to gauge how much ammo you need vs. weight you can carry in gear and loot.
6. You never have enough ammo to shoot willy nilly, pick your targets and fields of fire with care.
7. Misfires suck and can ruin your day.
Best bet, get off one maybe two shots and prepare for melee. I'm actually going to split class with rogue the knife master archetype so I can be of more use once I get my couple of shots off.
I find the class fun, but challenging to play.
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There's a roshenko system built into pathfinder.
Gunslingers do well in urban environs against other class leveled folks, such as NPCs.
They start doing worse against outsiders, bigger monsters and various other creatures that don't have an armor bonus for their expensive guns to bypass.
Council of Thieves, I think eventually tops out into Outsider land (I might be mistaking) so that should disappear.
Soft cover, anything that gives a concealment bonus (the common smoke stick) generally bolloxes up ranged attackers, as do twisty turny areas.
DR's also another problem for any 'hit you a lot' type. Gunslingers are a 'hit you a lot' as opposed to 'hit you hard' guy in general. I'd watch out if he starts taking critical feats though.
Check into black powder as well, he needs to keep that stuff dry.
I've thrown some modern style weapons into my (admittedly 14th level) campaign. They're not as awe inspiring as you'd imagine at that tier, but they are fun (and let the summoner contribute in a way besides just summons and buffs).
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Touch AC can make the gunslinger seem a little overwhelming at first, but the more familiar you get with guns, the more the cracks start to show.
First off, before you get firearm training, guns are basically ridiculously expensive, cumbersome crossbows with rare and costly ammunition and very slow reload times unless you're playing with advanced firearms and sink some feats into it. That Musket before Gun Training kicks in can do 6.5 damage on average ONCE in a round before you have to reload it, which is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity if you took Rapid Reload or a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity otherwise. Your musket man isn't going anywhere fast for someone who needs to be in enemy charging range to make his ranged touch attacks and he's done for if a couple enemies pin him down while he's trying to reload, and you're not playing the gun rules properly if he fires more than once every other round with his current feat selection.
Additionally, the range increments on guns mean they're hitting Touch AC only if you stand within charging distance of the thing you're aiming at. Hell, with pistols anything with natural reach can just whack you before you even squeeze a shot off if you want to hit his touch AC unless you're spending precious Grit to get the range. You're not exactly sniping with early firearms if the long-ranged musket requires you to be standing close enough even something small or in heavy armor with no reach can get into melee with you in a single charge.
Early firearms have a lot of trouble catching up to the tricks a skilled bowman can pull off in pathfinder without a ton of exploits/system mastery. Musket capacity means Rapid Shot is out of the question, and the bowman can fire off a hail of arrows silently and at much greater range than his gun-wielding counterpart. Simple fact of the matter is it's a free action to reload a bow while early firearms never get better than a move action, which means the level after your gunslinger picks...
I actually don't really agree with that assessment. It's really easy to remove misfire as a factor (aside from the enchantments, dwarves can reduce their misfire rating to 0 with favored class bonuses), wealth is only a factor at the earliest levels, and you get a free firearm that you can upgrade to masterwork and then enchant from there, so cost of the weapon isn't actually an issue. Musket Master allows you to easily get to free action reloads with two-handed firearms, pistol wielders can get there anyway, and you don't really need any more feats than an archer.
I've never actually had "squishiness" or "needing to stand too close" be an issue either; the Gunslinger is basically Dex SAD and gets Nimble, so he's almost always one of the highest AC characters in the group; the last Gunslinger at our table had an AC of 20 at level 1, and scaled accordingly from there.The whole "archers have more tricks" is also blatantly untrue; the Gunslinger can pick locks, turn his gun into a melee weapon and get a free attempt to knock the target prone at no penalty, make targets flat-footed (no save), and disarm, confuse, knock prone (again), or knock an enemy out of the air with no save and bypassing CMD.
I will definitely not claim to be an expert on gunslingers. I have never run or built one yet. (Though it is under consideration.)
I have been at table with a few. All of the times the gunslinger has run-a-muck, I have to say it was at least partially because of something else (or several somethings).
GM allowed advanced firearms.
GM has opponents charge archers but not gunslingers who are even closer.
Not tracking the weight, usage, or cost of ammo. (PC somehow had bought and was carrying half-plate and 600 alchemical cartridges at 2nd level)
Always/often the same type of enemy which is just perfect for the gunslinger (slow heavily armored tanks).
Poor builds for the rest of the party.
Poor tactics by the rest of the party.
Poor tactics by the enemy (sure some of them are stupid vermin, but they shouldn't all be stupid).
Not using misfire rules.
Not tracking grit used.
Don't get me wrong, they are a decently powerful class that is consistently pretty decent on damage. But they are usually neither as durable or as damaging as a raging barbarian. Or druid and AC. Or smiting paladin. Or SoS caster. Or etc...