@Kobold: also with dip...will not the PC loose too much?
Again, it depends on your priorities. The PC will continue to advance martially, but he won't gain any more spell-related abilities for three levels. If scythe is your priority, it might make sense to sacrifice some arcane power.
again...let me explain better, so maybe i shouldn't repeat every second the same thing XD.
Books Allowed:
- CORE RULEBOOK
- APG
- UM
- UC
- UE
now, i'm looking into a Scythe-wielder, possibly using magic too; right now Eldritch Knight seems the best option, and i'm pretty sure to want it builded Wizard-Warrior or Sorcerer-Warrior.
My questions are:
How many, and in which order, level should i dip in one or the other class?
Are there Archetypes (In books wrote above) may i consider?
Which feats fit better for what i want to do?
@Kobold: The problem persists -> is not only the magic loss (not so much a problem) but the spells choice... if i'm not wrong i should consider few spells only, those who apply in rounds, or i'm wrong?
Oh no, wait! Doing so i'll get one free hand, so that allow me to spell-strike aswell, right??
okk, no it doesn't because Polearm Fighter doesn't allow nothing about, and Titan Mauler is a barbarian Archetype, and while in rage you can not cast....so :(
i may choose the EK pact
The only way to bypass that is using this Warrior Archetype with a buckler, increasing spell failure % if i'm not wrong, does am i?
Okk nice, then i could wield my scythe, holding a mithral buckler and casting without problems?
One doubt still make a noise in my mind: how much does a mith-buckler costs?
Still going OT... i cant use Aasimar 'cause they're not a base race...
I looked at EK and seems what i was looking for... now wondering on how build one :)
Zolthux's Guide to the Eldritch Knight is probably a good place to start.
already looking at it, and yes suggest nice combinations of classes, but without saying how to start and how many levels dip in to one or the other class you'll need.
btw it will not be possible make a EK wielding a Scythe, assuming to wield it all the time; so to start an EK i was thinking of Bastard Sword; but that's the only thing i know XD! Should i start Sorcerer, Wizard or Warrior? Better to take the Weapon Master Archetype?
Zolthux says: "Weapon Master: I like to think one of the advantages of the gish is that you can carry many different types of weapon on your (Crushing, piercing and bludgeoning) on top of your usual weapon. That way when you need a specific type of damage, you can cast greater magic weapon on a side weapon and get bashing/slashing/piercing. Of course, you could just cast Versatile Weapon on your main weapon and problem solved. Either way, that +1 to CMD against that weapon being sundered is not great."
But i think he had not considered all the bonuses coming from the Weapon Master
I played a magus with a Large bastard sword. It was great fun. Yeah, you can't spell combat, but you can still spellstrike. I would turn invisible, walk up to someone, and then whack them with a huge sword. Good times.
my personal opinion is that magus is based on spell-combat... without, is pretty non-sense playing one..
There's no reason you can't have an EK with a two-handed weapon; you just take one hand off of it to cast spells.
The thing about an EK is that you need a basic level of spellcasting to get into EK, and then you're in and there's not a lot of reason to continue leveling a martial class. EK pretty much always goes *Class that gives martial weapons* 1/ Wizard5 or Sorcerer6/ EK. Pick the class that gives martial weapons for what it will give you at level 1 and be done with it. One option is to take Sohei Monk 1 and Empyreal Sorcerer, so you use Wisdom for spellcasting and bonus AC.
btw it will not be possible make a EK wielding a Scythe, assuming to wield it all the time
What are you saying here?
i meant using both hands... btw doing like Badbird suggest is not a worse idea, but limit your actions on choosing if cast a spell or attack with scythe.
And the idea is still nice :) so i definitely want to build an EK...
Lets start from the bigger doubt: Straight Fighter or Archetype? Here am really on trouble.
Ok...obiouvsly fighter if i take the 1st level only dip in... that's logic xD!!!
btw doing like Badbird suggest is not a worse idea, but limit your actions on choosing if cast a spell or attack with scythe.
Changing grip is a free action. Take your hand off, cast, put it back. Zero problems!
Before you get fixed on the EK, do note that Dragon Disciple - especially the first 4 levels of Dragon Disciple - does the same kind of thing, but arguably better. Disciple has bonus AC and bonus strength, and you can move into EK later if you want. Just something to consider if you're wanting to swing a scythe...
Now i'm wondering "what about stats?"
What does the DD sacrifice to do so?
btw returning on what we were saying: yes it's free to change grip, but using a spell means not using a standard action this turn, am i right?
with a fast wiew of that class i noticed:
- it assume to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation
- it surely waste some levels of spellcasting
now, is that even worth?
I've made a scythe magus before. An aasimar with a level in diabolist for an imp companion (a celestial imp companion, no less). Sort of going for a whole "Angel of Death" feel.
That companion attacks with kukris to get criticals, then passes them to the magus with Butterfly's Sting. The magus then spellstrikes with the scythe and shocking grasp to get huge amounts of damage (even though the shocking grasp damage is only doubled). No spell combat necessary (although heavy pick would also work, for increased versatility).
** spoiler omitted **
There's a free feat in the build because it had previously taken Evolved Companion (pounce), which I just remembered can only be taken by quadrepeds.I'm interested in seeing what others have...
dose the imp still level if you take levels out side of that prestige class? or do you need the boon companion feet?
It isn't a familiar, it's a special Diabolist class feature. It functions sort of like an animal companion, but it's an imp. It's actually a really cool part of the prestige class. Here.
In response to your second question, it's sort of ambiguous:
"Class Level: This is the diabolist’s class level plus her highest caster level. This does not stack with class levels that grant an animal companion."This is extremely messed up, even for normal characters. A Wizard 5/Diabolist 5 would have a Diabolist class level of 5 and a highest caster level of 10, for a total level of 15. Which doesn't make much sense.
In this character's case, their highest caster level is equal to their character level, because they have an aasimar spell-like ability. That makes things even more complicated.
That's honestly just a poorly written portion of the ability. But for simplicity's sake, I'm assuming it's capped at character level. At worst it loses a single level of progression. And Boon Companion would not apply, because it isn't technically an animal companion.
i would this so too unless it would start at level -5 you level because you need 5 levels just to take the class. i think you are right but do they have to be caster levels? what if you took a martial class for 4 levels and only one in a spellcasting class.
There's no reason you can't have an EK with a two-handed weapon; you just take one hand off of it to cast spells.
The thing about an EK is that you need a basic level of spellcasting to get into EK, and then you're in and there's not a lot of reason to continue leveling a martial class. EK pretty much always goes *Class that gives martial weapons* 1/ Wizard5 or Sorcerer6/ EK. Pick the class that gives martial weapons for what it will give you at level 1 and be done with it. One option is to take Sohei Monk 1 and Empyreal Sorcerer, so you use Wisdom for spellcasting and bonus AC.
You should never be going for late entry on EK: it's worthless. The prestige class begs for early entry.
martial class 1/spellcasting class 1/EK 10 or bust.
There's no reason you can't have an EK with a two-handed weapon; you just take one hand off of it to cast spells.
The thing about an EK is that you need a basic level of spellcasting to get into EK, and then you're in and there's not a lot of reason to continue leveling a martial class. EK pretty much always goes *Class that gives martial weapons* 1/ Wizard5 or Sorcerer6/ EK. Pick the class that gives martial weapons for what it will give you at level 1 and be done with it. One option is to take Sohei Monk 1 and Empyreal Sorcerer, so you use Wisdom for spellcasting and bonus AC.
You should never be going for late entry on EK: it's worthless. The prestige class begs for early entry.
martial class 1/spellcasting class 1/EK 10 or bust.
you need 3rd level casting. you dont get that at level 2 with any class.
you need 3rd level casting. you dont get that at level 2 with any class.There's no reason you can't have an EK with a two-handed weapon; you just take one hand off of it to cast spells.
The thing about an EK is that you need a basic level of spellcasting to get into EK, and then you're in and there's not a lot of reason to continue leveling a martial class. EK pretty much always goes *Class that gives martial weapons* 1/ Wizard5 or Sorcerer6/ EK. Pick the class that gives martial weapons for what it will give you at level 1 and be done with it. One option is to take Sohei Monk 1 and Empyreal Sorcerer, so you use Wisdom for spellcasting and bonus AC.
You should never be going for late entry on EK: it's worthless. The prestige class begs for early entry.
martial class 1/spellcasting class 1/EK 10 or bust.
From the paizo FAQ:
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes.
I'm suprised there are still people who don't know about this. All you need is a 3rd level racial or class SLA. You should not attempt to enter any spellcasting prestige classes without this trick: they are suboptimal even WITH it.
you need 3rd level casting. you dont get that at level 2 with any class.There's no reason you can't have an EK with a two-handed weapon; you just take one hand off of it to cast spells.
The thing about an EK is that you need a basic level of spellcasting to get into EK, and then you're in and there's not a lot of reason to continue leveling a martial class. EK pretty much always goes *Class that gives martial weapons* 1/ Wizard5 or Sorcerer6/ EK. Pick the class that gives martial weapons for what it will give you at level 1 and be done with it. One option is to take Sohei Monk 1 and Empyreal Sorcerer, so you use Wisdom for spellcasting and bonus AC.
You should never be going for late entry on EK: it's worthless. The prestige class begs for early entry.
martial class 1/spellcasting class 1/EK 10 or bust.
From the paizo FAQ:
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes.
I'm suprised there are still people who don't know about this. All you need is a 3rd level racial or class SLA. You should not attempt to enter any spellcasting prestige classes without this trick: they are suboptimal even WITH it.
what race has that? isnt that a 12th level monk ability?
what race has that? isnt that a 12th level monk ability?
I just got ninja'd, but 1st level scryer subschool wizard gets a 3rd level arcane SLA which qualifies him for EK.
The OP stated aasimar is off limits, so I think that's the only way he can get early access, essentially forcing him to be martial 1/wiz (scryer) 1/ EK 10. Sadly, the neat sohei/empyreal sorc build needs aasimar or svirfneblin to function.
Aasimars, Svirfneblins, Scryer Wizards, and Drow/Half-Elves with Improved Drow Nobility all have access to level 3 spell-like abilities.
Tieflings actually can't get early entry; they can get 1st or 2nd level divine or arcane spells, but not 3rd level.
omg ty so much. i have been looking for ways to take the minimum amount of levels so i can get into a prestige. i was thinking of a all prestige character. with 3-chevalier, 1-mammoth rider,and i guess now EK and DD in the mix i know its not optimal but it seems cool to me.
what race has that? isnt that a 12th level monk ability?I just got ninja'd, but 1st level scryer subschool wizard gets a 3rd level arcane SLA which qualifies him for EK.
The OP stated aasimar is off limits, so I think that's the only way he can get early access, essentially forcing him to be martial 1/wiz (scryer) 1/ EK 10. Sadly, the neat sohei/empyreal sorc build needs aasimar or svirfneblin to function.
i dont know much about wizards. im looking at the list of arctypes and i dont see "scryer" wizard.
i think 1 level of bloodrager (steelblood) would help. but it dose say "blood rager spells" so im not sure if i could cast spells off of their list.
Scryer is not an archetype, it's one of the available arcane schools for a Wizard (subset of Divination).
Steelblood would not let you cast Wizard spells without suffering arcane spell failure.
but would i be able to cast the spells on the bloodrager spell list without getting the arcane failure?
Sure. That's what the ability says.
awwww yeah!!! get some baby! it is time to crack some skulls and cast some spells.
I'm suprised there are still people who don't know about this. All you need is a 3rd level racial or class SLA. You should not attempt to enter any spellcasting prestige classes without this trick: they are suboptimal even WITH it.
Anything that isn't a pure spellcaster is going to be dramatically 'suboptimal' when used as one. If someone is looking at creating a weapon-user with supporting magic, the goals change and spellcasting prestige classes become much more viable - though EK is pretty much flat-out better with early entry (or entry after 4 levels of Dragon Disciple).
I was under the impression that the OP probably wouldn't be into using FAQ rulings to game early entry; perhaps I'm wrong. Anyhow, there's nothing "wrong" with going a 1X/4So/4DD route to create a two-handed warrior with potent support casting.
A character under that configuration has 3 less BAB than a full martial character, but they pick up 2 from strength bonuses. With Power Attack, the BAB difference means they trade one point less ab - making overall ab equal to the martial's. Their Power Attack damage bonus is lower, but their strength damage bonus is higher. Their AC has +4 from Dragon Disciple, and they can use Mage Armor, Shield, Arcane Armor Training etc, to say nothing of Mirror Image. Finally, where the martial character has weapon training or rage or whatever, they have arcane buffs. Start with a level of Barbarian and take some Extra Rage and you've got rage too, so you can have a character swinging a two-hander with huge strength and arcane buffs.
I'm suprised there are still people who don't know about this. All you need is a 3rd level racial or class SLA. You should not attempt to enter any spellcasting prestige classes without this trick: they are suboptimal even WITH it.Anything that isn't a pure spellcaster is going to be dramatically 'suboptimal' when used as one. If someone is looking at creating a weapon-user with supporting magic, the goals change and spellcasting prestige classes become much more viable - though EK is pretty much flat-out better with early entry (or entry after 4 levels of Dragon Disciple).
I was under the impression that the OP probably wouldn't be into using FAQ rulings to game early entry; perhaps I'm wrong. Anyhow, there's nothing "wrong" with going a 1X/4So/4DD route to create a two-handed warrior with potent support casting.
A character under that configuration has 3 less BAB than a full martial character, but they pick up 2 from strength bonuses. With Power Attack, the BAB difference means they trade one point less ab - making overall ab equal to the martial's. Their Power Attack damage bonus is lower, but their strength damage bonus is higher. Their AC has +4 from Dragon Disciple, and they can use Mage Armor, Shield, Arcane Armor Training etc, to say nothing of Mirror Image. Finally, where the martial character has weapon training or rage or whatever, they have arcane buffs. Start with a level of Barbarian and take some Extra Rage and you've got rage too, so you can have a character swinging a two-hander with huge strength and arcane buffs.
Multiple levels in a 1/2 BAB class definitely makes you suboptimal as a martial fighter as well. The loss of iteratives and power attack bonii is a huge hit to DPS. Your buffs are basically just playing catch-up at this point. You could achieve a functionally similar character by just taking UMD and casting those buffs with wands.
I mean, you're right: they are still playable if optimised and aren't at the very bottom of the tier pack by any means... but anyone capable of that level of optimisation isn't coming to the boards for build advice. Actually encouraging a beginner to play a non-early entry EK over, say, a magus, bard or battle cleric I would consider actively bad advice.
arcanine: Your welcome. I got that information from this extremely useful document.
Blakmane: Nonsense. Even assuming Svirfneblins aren't available either, it can work perfectly fine as a Drow or a Half-Elf, although not being able to dump charisma is painful.
Your linked guide says otherwise. Neither drow nor half elves get a 3rd level SLA AFAIK, only 2nd level. Improved drow noblity is out because it is an ARG feat, explicitly banned as above (and also costs two feats, meaning it won't be online in time for EK). How, exactly, are you using those races to get into EK?
Thanks for advices, i'm reading 'em fast and very interested of!
@arcanine: "Sure. That's what the ability says.
awwww yeah!!! get some baby! it is time to crack some skulls and cast some spells."
i don't know why people dont read previous post, but i'm sure one day i will -> bloodrager is not allowed to me.
So then doing a 1 Fighter/1 Scryer i could go EK with a useful char?
About stats:
STR=INT > (CON or DEX first?) > WIS > CHA
STR > INT > (CON or DEX first?) > WIS > CHA
INT > STR > (CON or DEX first?) > WIS > CHA
Yes, fighter/scryer/EK is a useful character, albeit difficult to build.
You don't want to be casting spells with DCs, so you don't need an exceptionally high INT. A 15 or 16 is sufficient, if you put your stat increases into it.
With a 20 point buy and human, I would probably build an EK as:
16 STR (+2 from human) = 18
12 DEX
12 CON
16 INT
10 WIS
7 CHA
You could also swap STR and DEX and do a scimitar dervish dance build, as you'll be in light/no armour anyway. STR and a falchion is almost certainly your best bet though: rely on mirror image etc for your survival, get improved critical (falchion) and go to town. It depends if you want more damage or survivability, ultimately.
Prioritise a metamagic rod of extend and quicken. Your buffs are your lifeblood and you need to keep them up as often as possible. Don't be afraid to use your mandatory divination slot to prepare scrying spells so you can always be ready for an encounter to your buffs pre-prepared.
Arcane armour training is a bit of a trap option unfortunately. You need your swift actions for quickens and the crit from your capstone. You will always be squishy, but mage armour and mirror image should keep you standing.
I would be planning on spell perfection at high levels so that you can freely cast a quickened buff spell of your choice - thus, you should be including at least 3 metamagic feats into your build. YMMV though, that's a lot of feats for an already feat hungry character. Of course, power attack and improved crit (falchion) are the only real essentials. You could also just grab a keen falcion earlier if it ends up being a high-magic game.
uhmmm...no wait...no way going into a Falchion or a Scimitar...i'm trying to build it with a Scythe; if i've to go with another weapon i surely go Magus + Bastard Sword.
Oh. Sure, you can build it with scythe. I forgot that's what you wanted to do. It's a poor choice for weapon (EK works best with high crit range, not high crit multiplier), but it's not the end of the world. All of the logic above still applies.
Then getting a Scythe it will result a nerfed char, is that right?