Level 6 Snakebite Striker Brawler
19 STR
16 DEX
...
FEATS:
Improved Trip/Greater Trip (Attack of Opportunity for Trip)
Jabbing Style/Jabbing Master (+2d6 if 2 hits in a round, +4d6 if 3 hits in a round)
SPECIAL:
Brawler's Flurry (can Trip as part of Flurry)
Sneak Attack (+2d6 at 6th level)
...
So, here's how combat goes:
1. Flurry
a. Trip as first attack, get AoO
2. Jabbing Master grants +4d6 if AoO and subsequent Flurry attacks all hit
3. If target is tripped, sneak attack damage applies to each hit
Calculations (if Trip is successful and all hits land):
3d8 (unarmed) + (3 * 4 STR) + 4d6 (Jabbing Master) + 6d6 (sneak) =
67 average damage
For a 6th Level character, 67 average damage per round seems insane. Am I doing something wrong?
Not sure if I'm missing something, but the Prone condition is not enough to apply sneak attack damage. Are you getting them flat-footed somehow? /curious
As far as the damage that is (potentially) high but not out of line with what an optimized damage dealer can be doing at level 6 by any means. Even my relatively goofy Pain Taster PFS character can dish out in excess of 80 damage in a round at level 7, with a vastly increased reach to boot.
EDIT: With less variability to the damage, mind you, since this is not including sneak attack (which does not work against certain foes) and includes a low damage die but huge static damage modifier.
No
next question
keep em coming
Just read the title, will read the rest of the post, but- no, it's a pure martial build, it's not breaking anything.
Read it. Still no, and that's not how sneak attack works.
Sorry. I meant to include that I had all the prerequisite feats as well.
Okay. Jabbing Master is out until 8. For some reason, the program I was using thought a BAB of +6 was enough for this feat.
Is there a Feat that removes a prone target's Dexterity (for sneak attack purposes)?
Would it be more beneficial to grapple, then?
Top of my head, here's a Human Cavalier (Order of the Cockatrice) 6 with the same Strength of 19 (although you could have it be 22 if you started at 18+2 racial bonus +1 at 4th level +1 belt of strength but I wanted to compare it directly)
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Power Attack, Spirited Charge; Weapon Focus
+14 To-hit: +6 BAB; +4 cavalier's charge; +4 strength; -4 power attack; +2 enhancement; +1 Morale bonus to attack (banner); +1 Weapon Focus
3d6+66 damage: 1d6 lance; Power Attack +6 damage; Challenge +2 morale bonus (Order of Cockatrice); Challenge +6 damage; Strength bonus +6; Magic lance +2 enhancement all trippled because of Spirited Charge
You're doing ride-by attack so you do it every round. That's an average of 76.5 per round that you hit. Assuming the above AC of 19, you're hitting on a 5+ (80% of the time) with a 5% chance of a critical hit (adding an extra 1d6+22 points of damage). That 57.375 damage per round, more than twice what your build does.
Might have messed up a bit here or there with an item but in general, the charging cavalier is going to do a LOT more damage.
Sneak Attack applies on prone targets if you use a Small creature and take Kobold Style. So you'd need At least one level in Master of Many Styles to get both styles.
All right ...
What would the optimized Snakebiter Striker Brawler build look like? Grapple? Feint? Other?
I'm just trying to maximize what I get out of this character.
ETA: Character must remain human with six levels of Brawler, and stats are as follows:
19 STR
16 DEX
14 CON
14 INT
14 WIS
10 CHA
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All right ...
What would the optimized Snakebiter Striker Brawler build look like? Grapple? Feint? Other?
Probably feint. If you're going any other manuver you'd be better off without Snakebite, and snakebite gets advantages to using feint.
Potentially you could combine Greater Feint with the Moonlight Stalker feats if you have a way to reliably get cover. (Smoke pellets can work - using your iterative attack on it - but even at only 25gp each - the cost can become significant if you use one most rounds. A cloak of minor displacement can work eventually - but it'd be out of your price range at level 6.)
I'm a big fan of combining Snakebite Striker and Halfling Opportunist. Using Counterpunch to get your sneak attack every time someone tries to hit you.
As Brawler's Flurry effectively gives you Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon fight, I would suggest you use Improved Two Weapon Feint to make the most out of your sneak attack.
I will also suggest that rather than using unarmed strike (which are expensive to enhance with an amulet of mighty fists) that you find a weapon from the close group that you like and flurry with that instead. While the base weapon damage will be lower it still gets to scale once you get close weapon mastery. While it's 4 levels behind, if you pick up the Monk's Robe, it's effectively no penalty. In fact, it should work out to qualify for as though it was (level + 1) damage. I'm a fan of the cestus because you get an improved crit range.
What if I go WF/WSpec with Unarmed?
I suppose the Cestus would actually be better, especially if Specialized, because of the 19-20/x2 crit? Or would a punching dagger be better, because of the x3?
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What if I go WF/WSpec with Unarmed?
I suppose the Cestus would actually be better, especially if Specialized, because of the 19-20/x2 crit?
Or if you go with a punching dagger - you can dip into Rogue/Knife Master to make all of your sneak attack dice d8s with it.
Though unarmed is pretty good if you go pummeling style - but your AC will suffer as your neck slot will be filled with an AoMF instead of an AoNA.
Also - if you want to stick with the tripping/unarmed portions instead of the snakebite portion of your initial build - you could take Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp to get two AOOs each time you trip (and a 3rd when they stand up), and then carry a masterwork longspear. The spear wouldn't be to stab with - it'd be for tripping AOOs as people close with you. (or the rest of your party for that matter)
Or if you go with a punching dagger - you can dip into Rogue/Knife Master to make all of your sneak attack dice d8s with it.What if I go WF/WSpec with Unarmed?
I suppose the Cestus would actually be better, especially if Specialized, because of the 19-20/x2 crit?
Furthermore, it frees up my Traits that I currently have to cover Rogue skills (to make him more "rogue-ish").
Snakebite Striker optimized builds:
1. Shatter Defenses/Deadly Stroke. You qualify for Deadly Stroke because you count as a fighter for feats, but you can also take full advantage of Shatter Defenses because you have Sneak Attack. You need to get Intimidate again via trait or use the Taunt feat on a small creature to use Bluff to intimidate.
2. Snake Feint + Vital Strike. With Snake Feint, your move actions can be used to simultaneously feint, so you can combine that with a Vital Strike as a standard action. You can exploit it at 6th level with a Large Spiked Bashing Heavy Shield (used in two hands for Power Attack) for massive damage dice on Vital Strike, to which Sneak Attack adds up. Later on, you pick up Death or Glory and start one-shotting skeletal dragons.
3. Scout Rogue 4 + Pummeling Charge. Self descriptive. Make a Flurry on a charge and automatically apply Sneak Attack thanks to 4 levels of Scout Rogue. You also get to pick up a couple of Rogue Talents if you are interested in that, plus skills and Trapfinding. This one build likely wants Weapon Finesse to stack AC for all the attacks of opportunity you'll provoke -- or get Horn of the Crosphinx for extra Strength damage.
Considering the bulk of your damage is likely to come from sneak attack (which isn't multiplied on a crit) it's neither is as strong as it appears to be.
Personally I always choose enhanced crit range over increased multiplier. Though mathematically they are theoritically equal, the enhanced crit range will make it come up more often and therefore more useful to me. But as I mentioned sneak attack not being multiplied makes its value either way less overall. Being able to use the punching dagger, and if you're considering the rogue dip anyway will let you get the higher damage dice which probably more valuable.
Yup. Rogue (Knife Master) also doesn't forbid Rogue (Scout), so that's a possibility that I agree with, especially because of the Pummeling Charge option.
I like Snake Feint + Vital Strike, too. Shatter Defenses/Deadly Stroke is also aligned with how my wife perceived this character, so that's going to be a hard choice.
The easy choice is 1 Rogue (Knife Master) with the Brawler. Done and done!
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Yup. Rogue (Knife Master) also doesn't forbid Rogue (Scout), so that's a possibility that I agree with, especially because of the Pummeling Charge option.
While you can go both Knife Master & Scout, Knife Master doesn't stack with the Pummeling Charge combo as the Pummeling style feats have to be done unarmed, while to get the d8 sneak attack dice from Knife Master you have to use a knife-type weapon. (such as a punching dagger - the only close weapon on their list) In fact - Knife Master would make the combo weaker as any unarmed sneak attack would all drop to d4.
Can I just point out that a typical 6th level, full BAB martial is going to have ~22 Strength, Power Attack, at least a +1 weapon (probably a Greatsword or Falchion), and another +1-3 hit/damage from some other feature/source.
That's, with just +1 extra, 2d6+19 (25 average), and they'll swing twice. So, with bare minimum investment (the only thing really that takes any investment here is the Str), you're looking at a potential 50/round. With a better weapon, all their feats spent correctly, appropriate buffs (Haste, for example), etc., the potential is much, much higher. Dealing 67 (even if it were accurate) doesn't break anything.
Damage is the one thing martials actually do best. The problem is that damage isn't even close to the most important part of defeating encounters.
Can I just point out that a typical 6th level, full BAB martial is going to have ~22 Strength, Power Attack, at least a +1 weapon (probably a Greatsword or Falchion), and another +1-3 hit/damage from some other feature/source.
That's, with just +1 extra, 2d6+19 (25 average), and they'll swing twice. So, with bare minimum investment (the only thing really that takes any investment here is the Str), you're looking at a potential 50/round. With a better weapon, all their feats spent correctly, appropriate buffs (Haste, for example), etc., the potential is much, much higher. Dealing 67 (even if it were accurate) doesn't break anything.
Damage is the one thing martials actually do best. The problem is that damage isn't even close to the most important part of defeating encounters.
Again, a Vital Striking Snakebite Striker with a Large Spiked +1 Bashing Heavy Shield (used in two hands) is going to deal 6d6 +2d6 sneak attack damage, while feinting on the way. You can assume the same amount of STR.
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Again, a Vital Striking Snakebite Striker with a Large Spiked +1 Bashing Heavy Shield (used in two hands) is going to deal 6d6 +2d6 sneak attack damage, while feinting on the way. You can assume the same amount of STR.Can I just point out that a typical 6th level, full BAB martial is going to have ~22 Strength, Power Attack, at least a +1 weapon (probably a Greatsword or Falchion), and another +1-3 hit/damage from some other feature/source.
That's, with just +1 extra, 2d6+19 (25 average), and they'll swing twice. So, with bare minimum investment (the only thing really that takes any investment here is the Str), you're looking at a potential 50/round. With a better weapon, all their feats spent correctly, appropriate buffs (Haste, for example), etc., the potential is much, much higher. Dealing 67 (even if it were accurate) doesn't break anything.
Damage is the one thing martials actually do best. The problem is that damage isn't even close to the most important part of defeating encounters.
Assuming both that the feint works and the Vital Strike hits - the average would be 44.8 damage (28 from dice, 6 strength, 6 power attack, 1 magic, 2 weapon spec, 5% crit) - not terrible - but not amazing either, at a total of +10 to hit (6 BAB + 4 Str + 1 magic + 1 WF -2 power attack)
If aimed at the aforementioned AC 19 monster - dropped to AC18 when flatfooted for the sake of argument (will vary). If his bluff is at +11 (9 for ranks - 2 is assuming he has some other buff), he'd have approx a 75% chance of feint working. (Assuming they're humanoid - it goes down if they're not.)
So - when feint works - his average damage would be 29.12 damage since he'd hit on a roll of 8, and when feint doesn't work his average damage would be 22.68 (lose sneak attack and is 1 point less accurate). This puts the average damage for this combo against a CR6 creature at 27.51.
If he just does nothing weird and just uses the shield in a flurry - he'd have 3 swings at +10/+10/+5, each for an average of 18.375 damage. The total average would be 28.48 damage.
The Vital Strike combo will do slightly more damage against targets with higher dex bonuses, and it's okay as you move into position, - but it costs several feats, and if the flurry were ever in a position to deal sneak attack damage, its damage would be far and away higher. In addition - at level 6 haste should start to become pretty common in tougher fights - making the Vital Strike combo fall further to the wayside.
Vital Strike simply isn't very good.
I didn't say it was gonna win the DPR Olympics, it's just going to be better at this game than a same level build because it doesn't rely on immobile full attacks
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The problem with Jabbing Master is that it does more damage if your least likely to hit attacks actually connect.
That's why it is much weaker then it seems. If you can land a lot of attacks, sure, it looks nice. But a TWF rogue who lands 4 sneak attacks in a round looks pretty impressive too. So does a Monk who can actually get off a Medusa's Wrath combo.
The problem, of course, is that the reliance on full attacks, and on the iterative attacks of those full attacks, AND on TWF/Flurry, means that all this bonus damage isn't impressive...it's just meant to get it up close to par with someone who isn't making that massive investment in feats and the like and doing similar damage more reliably.
:P
==Aelryinth
Ergo don't knock on the standard action wonder Vital Strike build.
Yeah, Jabbing Style is pretty bad. Pummeling Style is unquestionably the best style in the game right now.
You wanna break pathifnder? Level one heavens oracle.
Yup. Rogue (Knife Master) also doesn't forbid Rogue (Scout), so that's a possibility that I agree with, especially because of the Pummeling Charge option.
I like Snake Feint + Vital Strike, too. Shatter Defenses/Deadly Stroke is also aligned with how my wife perceived this character, so that's going to be a hard choice.
The easy choice is 1 Rogue (Knife Master) with the Brawler. Done and done!
pummeling style only gives its wonderfull stuff to unarmed attacks. So knife Master will actually hurt you since your sneek dice is now d4s with unarmed strikes.
I think a 2 level dip into MoMS monk is the best plan either get dragon style on top of pummeling style or if you have a good AC get snake style and snake fang and get AOO every time someone, that you hopefulle already have denied dex, miss you with a attack.|
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I didn't say it was gonna win the DPR Olympics, it's just going to be better at this game than a same level build because it doesn't rely on immobile full attacks
I agree. I did mention that it's better as you move into position. I'm just not sure that it's worth a feat for that extra 3d6 situational damage. *shrug* But even with the feat it shouldn't be used every round except perhaps against foes with high dex/dodge bonuses. (a Will o' Wisp or some such)
Especially since as you level, that extra 3d6 will fall by the wayside entirely as static bonuses and additional attacks add up.
Nice catch.
Anyway, vital strike is just a gateway to all consuming swing and death or glory.
I'm trying to understand how that's not a terrible combination, and can't. Maybe if you were a druid or something.
Also
When you do so, the strain on your body causes you to take an amount of damage equal to the extra damage dealt by your Vital Strike feat.This made me chortle. Like, just imagine metamagic feats worked this way.
The additional strain on your brain causes you to take 1 INT damage
I wouldn't mind making that 1d4 of the user's casting stat. Given how ridiculous Dazing and the like can get, it seems fair. Although it should probably vary between feats.
Another great snakebite striker build I failed to mention is the unfolding wind rush build for short distance throwing.
Combine full attacks with move actions and inception a feint into your move.
It works well with wushu darts or iron brushes, since they are close weapons and able to be flurried and receive larger damage dice.