Fast Learner lets you take two favored class bonuses, as a half elf witch can i take the Half Elf racial bonus and the Human racial bonus for two spells per level?
Your favored class is a Witch. You can't favor the same class twice.
Your second favored class is only for if you plan to multi-class.
Your favored class is a Witch. You can't favor the same class twice.
Your second favored class is only for if you plan to multi-class.
its not a second favored class, it gives you two bonuses in your favored class, so if i was playing something without a racial bonus i would be getting both +1 HP and +1 skill point
I believe it was ruled that Fast Learner only lets you choose "One hit point and one skill point" OR any other racial favored class bonus. You can't even take one hit point and the elf favored class bonus, never mind both the elf and human favored class bonuses.
#1, that feat is horribly worded.
#2, it lets you get both a +1 hp and +1 skill point OR switching one of them for an alternate class skill. Thus you would not be able to double up on alternate class skills. You could take a +1hp/skillpoint and an alternate class skill though. Generally in PF similar abilities don't stack.
As a side note half-elf/human alternate for witch class isn't that good. Witches don't have that good of a spell list and you can add spells by a ritual that uses a scroll. alternate racial traits for hexes would be better.
I believe it was ruled that Fast Learner only lets you choose "One hit point and one skill point" OR any other racial favored class bonus. You can't even take one hit point and the elf favored class bonus, never mind both the elf and human favored class bonuses.
if that is the case what is the difference from normal if you want the racial bonus? none?
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its not a second favored class, it gives you two bonuses in your favored class, so if i was playing something without a racial bonus i would be getting both +1 HP and +1 skill pointYour favored class is a Witch. You can't favor the same class twice.
Your second favored class is only for if you plan to multi-class.
Hi there Hazrond. Sometimes it would be easier for everyone to understand if you post the full description of what you are asking about.
Fast Learner
Source: Advanced Race Guide
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.
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As for the answer to your question,
If you are a half-elf witch with the fast learner feat:
The feat does exactly what it says it does (grammatically). If you have this feat you can either choose +1 hit point and +1 skill rank, or you can choose the alternate class reward.
You do not get your choice of two of the three, but it does not preclude you from taking an alternate class reward if you choose to do that instead.
As answered here by a developer.
So no... you cannot pick 2 alternate class reward, which is what you want.
A quick break down of the feat for easier understanding:
When you gain a level in a favored class,
1) (you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit)
or
2) [you can choose an alternate class reward.]
Hazrond,
All the feat does is give you +1skill point when you select +1hp or +1hp when you select +1skill point.
If you select the class related racial bonus there is no effect.
#1, that feat is horribly worded.
#2, it lets you get both a +1 hp and +1 skill point OR switching one of them for an alternate class skill. Thus you would not be able to double up on alternate class skills. You could take a +1hp/skillpoint and an alternate class skill though. Generally in PF similar abilities don't stack.
As a side note half-elf/human alternate for witch class isn't that good. Witches don't have that good of a spell list and you can add spells by a ritual that uses a scroll. alternate racial traits for hexes would be better.
oh is that so? thanks for the information then :)
Hazrond, Grimserver is incorrect.
You cannot 'switch hp or skill point for an alternate class skill'. You either take the HP+Skill Point reward or you take the alternate class reward. You do not get to mix and match.
Hazrond, Grimserver is incorrect.
You cannot 'switch hp or skill point for an alternate class skill'. You either take the HP+Skill Point reward or you take the alternate class reward. You do not get to mix and match.
Ya, don't listen to me I am dumb q.q. Good to know the correct ruling though!
My GM is allowing me to use Fast Learner take two racial FCBs (half-elf life oracle taking elf FCB for Channeling and human for extra spells.) But yeah, I think unless you read it generously RAW goes against that.
The feat is just awful otherwise - it's a strictly worse version of Toughness, unless you want the Improvisation feats (which really aren't that great.)
RumpinRufus, I find it to be a good feat IF the following are true: You NEED skill points AND you want +2hp per level (once for Fast Learner, once for Toughness).
However, expending feats for HPs are not usually a good idea unless you have excess feats.
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Grimserver, you aren't "dumb". We all make errors.
I'm pretty sure MacFarland himself was the one who said that developer comments in the forum don't amount to official stances by the dev team. So the only ruling that carries weight in this matter is an official errata or FAQ. Glancing at the FAQ list for ARG (the book from which the feat comes), no such FAQ exists. I'm not aware of any errata concerning it either. Thus, we can only go on what is explicitly written in the book. It says, "When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit you can choose an alternate class reward." (emphasis mine) So, normally, you choose either one or the other of +1HP or +1SP, or you get an alternate class reward (in lieu of your choice between HP or SP). The first clause of Fast Learner states you get both HP and SP in place of your choice between the two, but the second clause simply states you gain an alternate class reward without specifying that you forego the normal options available to a character without the feat. Thus, we have the following breakdown:
W/out feat: (+1HP or +1SP) or ACR
W/ feat, first option: [(+1HP or +1SP)] or ACR
w/ feat, second option: [(+1HP or +1SP) or ACR]The options provided by the feat are in blue. This is the most reasonable interpretation of the feat that both works as written and also doesn't create awkward situations such as being denied benefit of the feat just because you want to pick an ACR rather than HP or SP. Now, granted, if the dev team wants to make an official ruling on the matter that goes along with MacFarland, they are free to do so. But it would make far less sense, from a logical perspective, than the above parsing.
oh? is that right? option three was what i was wondering about, good to know if thats how it works
Just take Fast Learner and Nemesis. That way you get +1HP, +1SP AND ACR. ;)
I'm pretty sure MacFarland himself was the one who said that developer comments in the forum don't amount to official stances by the dev team. So the only ruling that carries weight in this matter is an official errata or FAQ. Glancing at the FAQ list for ARG (the book from which the feat comes), no such FAQ exists. I'm not aware of any errata concerning it either. Thus, we can only go on what is explicitly written in the book. It says, "When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit you can choose an alternate class reward." (emphasis mine) So, normally, you choose either one or the other of +1HP or +1SP, or you get an alternate class reward (in lieu of your choice between HP or SP). The first clause of Fast Learner states you get both HP and SP in place of your choice between the two, but the second clause simply states you gain an alternate class reward without specifying that you forego the normal options available to a character without the feat. Thus, we have the following breakdown:
W/out feat: (+1HP or +1SP) or ACR
W/ feat, first option: [(+1HP or +1SP)] or ACR
w/ feat, second option: [(+1HP or +1SP) or ACR]The options provided by the feat are in blue. This is the most reasonable interpretation of the feat that both works as written and also doesn't create awkward situations such as being denied benefit of the feat just because you want to pick an ACR rather than HP or SP. Now, granted, if the dev team wants to make an official ruling on the matter that goes along with MacFarland, they are free to do so. But it would make far less sense, from a logical perspective, than the above parsing.
"w/ feat, second option" is not legal. The feat does not provide this option. The feat only provides "W/ feat, first option".
"When you gain a level in a favored class, or . "
It is pretty clear that it is stating you gain " or ".
There is no way to redistribute this to being " and .
The feat's wording simply does not support this interpretation.
w/ feat, second option" is not legal. The feat does not provide this option. The feat only provides "W/ feat, first option".
"When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward. "
It is pretty clear that it is stating you gain "A and B instead of A or B or you may select C".
There is no way to redistribute this to being "A or B or C and C.
The feat's wording simply does not support this interpretation.
While I'll admit it helps to give it a willfully generous reading, I think RAW can support the "take two different racial FCBs" interpretation.
First let's look at the wording of Fast Learner:When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.
By a generous reading, the final clause can be interpreted as "or you can choose an alternate class reward instead of either +1 HP or +1 skill rank". By this reading, that final clause is merely telling you that the feat doesn't prohibit your from taking a racial FCB, but otherwise does not change the general rule that you can take a racial FCB instead of the HP or the skill rank.
Now let's look at that general rule about racial FCBs:
Thus, rather than taking an extra hit point or an extra skill rank, players may choose for their characters to gain the benefit listed here.
This allows one to take a racial FCB instead of a hit point or a skill rank. Thus, if one gets both a skill rank and a hit point from Fast Learner, they can both be swapped out for racial FCBs.
Now I admit it is not RAI to allow multiple racial FCBs per level, as per the dev comment, but by RAW I do not think it is actually prohibited - it just depends on how you parse the final "or" in the wording of Fast Learner. If you parse it as intended, that it's (+1 HP and +1 rank) or (racial FCB) then you can't take multiple racial FCBs. But, if you read it generously and parse it as (+1 HP) or (+1 rank) or (racial FCB) then you can additionally swap out the second benefit, as normally allowed, with a racial FCB. Because nothing in Fast Learner prohibits you from swapping the HP/rank with a racial FCB, and since that swap is normally allowed, it could still be allowed.
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What your options actually are:
Option A: HP + Skill Point
Option B: Alternate Reward
What it should be to be worth a feat:
Option A: HP + Skill Point
Option B: HP + Alternate Reward
Option C: Skill Point + Alternate Reward
The options I put above put it on par with Toughness, which is hardly overpowered. It appears that this is also how nemesis works.
If by "on par with Toughness" you mean strictly worse than Toughness, and should never be taken by anyone ever unless (A) they already have Toughness or (B) they want to take the Improvisation feat.
edit: sorry, I may be getting caught up - the above sentence refers to the original Fast Learner feat read as intended. In your proposed change, the existence of Option C would make it no longer strictly worse than Toughness.
RumpinRufus,
I have tried to see where it can be interpreted as "or you can choose an alternate class reward instead of either +1 HP or +1 skill rank" but it simply is not there. The "either" in the feat is indicating that you now select HP+Skill instead of selecting HP or Skill. It does not indicate that you get your choice of HP or Skill or Alternate.
I believe this goes beyond 'generous' reading and into 'misreading' territory.
In any case it is a feat that condenses two options into one and thus turns 3 options (HP, Skill, Alternate) into 2 options (HP+Skill, Alternate).
The stated intent of the author supports this reading and there is not contradictory information to contradict the authors stated intent. It seems pretty clear.
Just take Fast Learner and Nemesis. That way you get +1HP, +1SP AND ACR. ;)All for the low-low price of two feats.
Barely worth it even by 20th level in my opinion.
The Completion Benefit for Nemesis is a +2 inherent bonus to an ability score of your choice. Seems pretty worthwhile to me. As far as Fast Learner, it's the start of the Improvisation line of feats. Not an exciting line of feats, but they have a niche use. I've got a character that's got a +8 to all skill checks for skills she has no ranks in and she doesn't have many skill ranks much more than linguistics.
Overall not bad on the right character. They aren't something I'd suggest for the average one though.
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Just take Fast Learner and Nemesis. That way you get +1HP, +1SP AND ACR. ;)All for the low-low price of two feats.
Barely worth it even by 20th level in my opinion.
The Completion Benefit for Nemesis is a +2 inherent bonus to an ability score of your choice. Seems pretty worthwhile to me. As far as Fast Learner, it's the start of the Improvisation line of feats. Not an exciting line of feats, but they have a niche use. I've got a character that's got a +8 to all skill checks for skills she has no ranks in and she doesn't have many skill ranks much more than linguistics.
Overall not bad on the right character. They aren't something I'd suggest for the average one though.
I do wish that improvization didn't have the nasty flaw that if you put a rank in a non-class skill you're actually *worse* off than before. It means that you have to invest at least 3 at once to gain a net positive if training up a new (non-class) skill, or 5 if you have improved improvization (2 if it's a class skill). Not a huge flaw, but I detest silliness where buying something makes you worse.
I do wish that improvization didn't have the nasty flaw that if you put a rank in a non-class skill you're actually *worse* off than before. It means that you have to invest at least 3 at once to gain a net positive if training up a new (non-class) skill, or 5 if you have improved improvization (2 if it's a class skill). Not a huge flaw, but I detest silliness where buying something makes you worse.Just take Fast Learner and Nemesis. That way you get +1HP, +1SP AND ACR. ;)All for the low-low price of two feats.
Barely worth it even by 20th level in my opinion.
The Completion Benefit for Nemesis is a +2 inherent bonus to an ability score of your choice. Seems pretty worthwhile to me. As far as Fast Learner, it's the start of the Improvisation line of feats. Not an exciting line of feats, but they have a niche use. I've got a character that's got a +8 to all skill checks for skills she has no ranks in and she doesn't have many skill ranks much more than linguistics.
Overall not bad on the right character. They aren't something I'd suggest for the average one though.
True, but when I use these feat, it's most time not an issue. I normally use it on a class with a lackluster skill point total, pick the skills I'm going to use and always put points in those. All the rest stay at 0. With a +8 for 0 ranks, aiding someone else's skill roll is a breeze.
PS: using these feats is also helpful on a human that's traded out skilled for another trait.
I'm curious - you're getting a +4 from Improved Improvisation, where is the other +4 coming from?
Evangelist prestige class
Multitude of Talents (Ex): Starting at 5th level, the evangelist gains a +4 sacred or profane bonus on any skill check attempted with a skill in which the character has no ranks. This bonus applies only to skill checks that can be made untrained.
The Improvisation line makes all skills usable without training so all skills get both bonuses for a +8.
If only you didn't need a 13 int to get the feats that would be awesome for so many characters.
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If only you didn't need a 13 int to get the feats that would be awesome for so many characters.
I couldn't agree more. Needing a high int actually works against the feats benefits.